The Maps 3 rundown...

[BDP]

I just don't want OKC to jump on this and then not be able to support it so we have a big stadium downtown going to waste for most weekends out of the year (I realize it could be used for other things sometimes).

It would be as much of a waste as the Ford Center was. The MLS would make it even less of a waste. It doesn't have to be at capacity every time it's used either for it to be worthwhile. Festivals, concerts, local sporting events like polo, football, rugby, tennis, etc could all benefit and add excitement to the area as well as the events themselves. Sure these things can be accommodated on a smaller scale, but why not build it for the occasional large event or permanent major/mid-major tenant as well?

Think of it as a community entertainment complex, not just an MLS stadium. It could be the center piece for all of Oklahoma’s major outdoor events, right here in downtown OKC, and next to the river, it could be the center piece of a much bigger outdoor park and recreation area that would be the envy of the region. Think about a city with a large central park area with boat races, cross country events, professional and semi-pro competitions, biking and running trails all with a signature stadium as its epicenter giving the whole thing validity, cohesiveness, and purpose. If built as the people’s stadium, and not just an MLS stadium, IMO, that would significantly improve Oklahoma City's quality of life for its citizens, all while making it much more competitive in the lifestyle options that so often is the deciding factor in where businesses locate and where people go to start their lives.

[Theo Walcott]

Couldn't have made the argument better myself. When built south of the river yet connected via a bridge to the Core to Shore area, this will definitely add to the city's quality of life.

We have got to dream big here and think big picture, folks. Three major resort casinos to the north of the river, a retail area adjacent to the casinos, and a bridge/walkway across the river to the soccer complex/park. I love the idea of having biking and running trails through it as well.

[traxx]

You obviously aren't familiar with how successful the Tulsa Roughnecks were. Of course that league went bankrupt, but the MLS has managed itself remarkably well over the years and is growing.

What isn't sustainable about cheap tickets and good family entertainment?

BTW, a 3-2 game is more exciting than you would think. And please stop with the bowling crap. Only NBA players can compare with soccer players in terms of sheer athletic ability. Bowling, baseball, and yes, even American football players have nothing on the athleticism of soccer players.

First, I don't care how cheap the tickets are that doesn't = entertainment. I wouldn't go even if it were free. I betcha there's alot of others that feel that way too. More so than would pay to see MLS week in and week out over a season. So the prospect of several seasons is out of the question. Yes, I'll grant you there may be some interest at first because it's something new but after the new has worn off it won't be sustainable.

Of course I should have realized how laughable your arguments were when you posted that little gem about soccer players being so much more athletic than pro (or even college) football players. In what other sport do you have a 6'5", 350 lbs. man that runs a 4.5 40, benches 400 lbs., leg presses nearly twice that and whose only job is to knock you into the dirt as hard as he can on every play hoping you won't get up? I'll give you hint - it ain't soccer. I'm not saying soccer players aren't athletic, but to say that football players can't hold a candle to their athletic ability is rediculous.

[TStheThird]

I find it hard to argue with people that don't watch or understand soccer. I can't respect your opinion if you only understand one side of the debate.

In other news... Americans will never have the passion for soccer that europeans do. Most Americans do not have that kind of passion for any sport. We are spread too thin. I love OSU football, basketball, baseball and wrestling. I enjoy the NFL. I quasi root for the hornets, but really don't care about the NBA. I watch MLB and NHL playoffs. I also watch golf and enjoy watching Federer destroy everyone in Tennis. I watch Serie A and Premiership matches on FSC.

My emotional fan energy is spread across all of these teams. In Europe, they have their soccer team. Imagine if we only had the NFL in America and no college sports. We just had the NFL with minor league teams in smaller cities. The following would be crazy. That is why the big european clubs have billion dollar tv contracts and hundred million dollar contracts with Nike and such for uniforms and giant sponsorship contracts. The big clubs have 20 million plus diehard fans.

Soccer will never be like that in America. No sport will. More people view a Real Madrid regular season game than view the Superbowl.

[Theo Walcott]

That's something for people to chew on, right there. More people watch a Real Madrid match than the superbowl....hmmmm. That 6'5" 350 lb freak of a human being will only be able to do that for about 5 seconds. Try doing that for 90 minutes and then get back to me. BTW, it all becomes moot because the NFL freak dies around age 50-55 and the soccer player likely lives into his 80s. Tell me who the better athlete really was.

Anyway, it is difficult to argue with these people who so vehemently hate soccer. None of this changes the fact that there is a real future in the MLS and it is growing. Oklahoma City needs to get in the game, and improve the quality of life of the City in the process.

[traxx]

Try doing for it 90 minutes huh, so that's what a soccer player does for 90 minutes? Really.

Freak? I think not, it's not so uncommon in football. Plus many players play for 10 or 15 years in the NFL. And athletic ability is a moot point because of what they do in their 50s or 60s. That doesn't have anything to do with what happens on the field. BTW, I'm not buying the football player lives to 50 while a pro soccer player lives to almost 90 argument. You could find examples to argue either side that but it doesn't make it any more or less true as an average.

Yeah, Third, americans will never have the kind of passion for american sports like the Europeans do, if that means we don't break out into riots at games on a regular basis and maim or kill other fans. If that happens here it's major news, if it happens in Europe it's buried in the back of the news behind the water skiing squirrel.

[Theo Walcott]

If you don't think that a 6'5" 350 pound person running a 4.6 forty yard dash isn't a freak (as in an abormality), then really there is no arguing to be done with you. You are set in your ways, and that much is clear. You have no appreciation for something that the majority of the world enjoys more than any other sport. Good for you, you're really onto something!

Nevertheless your slate of oh-so-typical anti-soccer arguments have yet to demonstrate that the MLS would NOT succeed in OKC. Again I ask, did you read the market analysis?

[TStheThird]

I think American's would riot if we only had one sport that we followed. We have the luxury of spreading that emotional energy to many sports. I am not trying to argue about europeans being more passionate, just stating an observation from my time living in Italy and my love for sports in America.

I wasn't much of a soccer fan when I moved there, but I was a big sports fan. In time, I became a huge soccer fan. I don't know if it was because 10 of the 13 tv channels at my apartment coverd soccer 24 hours a day, or because that is all my flatmates talked about, or if it was because I got to see some games live in Bologna, Stadio Olimpico in Rome, and San Siro in Milano, but I have become a huge fan of soccer.

I will be honest, four years ago I could care less, now, it is my favorite sport. I caught the bug.

Now, back to the argument. War MLS!

[scotplum]

First, I don't care how cheap the tickets are that doesn't = entertainment. I wouldn't go even if it were free. I betcha there's alot of others that feel that way too. More so than would pay to see MLS week in and week out over a season. So the prospect of several seasons is out of the question. Yes, I'll grant you there may be some interest at first because it's something new but after the new has worn off it won't be sustainable.

Of course I should have realized how laughable your arguments were when you posted that little gem about soccer players being so much more athletic than pro (or even college) football players. In what other sport do you have a 6'5", 350 lbs. man that runs a 4.5 40, benches 400 lbs., leg presses nearly twice that and whose only job is to knock you into the dirt as hard as he can on every play hoping you won't get up? I'll give you hint - it ain't soccer. I'm not saying soccer players aren't athletic, but to say that football players can't hold a candle to their athletic ability is rediculous.

I've never understood why so many people are simply anti-soccer. Is it because it is not an American born sport? That's really the only thing that makes sense to me.

No offense intended traxx, plus a lot of people here in the US feel the exact same way as you, however why people are out to kill a sport they "don't care about" makes no sense to me. To say soccer is not entertainment is absolutely ridiculous. I just don't understand why some are so close-minded when it comes to the sport of soccer.

One positive thing to note about an impressive soccer stadium in OKC is that when the World Cup comes back to the U.S., we'd likely host some World Cup games. That is nice world wide publicity.

[Theo Walcott]

That is GREAT worldwide publicity and would be incredible.

I have been doing some research on this topic, and really, it's difficult to understand. Why ARE many Americans so vehemently anti-soccer?

They say a 3-1 match is boring, yet would insist that a 21-7 football game would be good entertainment? THAT makes no sense.

I think it's largely to do with (a) soccer not having been originated in the U.S.; (b) some kind of pseudo-nationalistic, quasi-Napoleanic reaction against the "rest of the stupid world."; and (c) a uniquely American "machoism" where they think that soccer involves no physicality relative to other sports.

Whatever the case may be, to hold such a negative sentiment about a sport is ignorance. I'm not saying you HAVE to like it or be a fan, but at the very least you'd think these types would at the least acknowledge that it is in fact a sport (and a difficult one at that to play) and that there is a reason why billions like the game.

[CuatrodeMayo]

1. I have no problem with a multi-use stadium on the river. I think it is a cool idea. It can meet MLS specs, but it needs to be able to be used year-round for a variety of events and meet NFL specs in the event that a MLS franchise is not successful.

2. No youth fields...that land can be used for a much higher purpose.

3. Comparing soccer players to football players is comparing apples to oranges. There is no common yardstick that can be used to determine which is a better athelete. Any comparision made here is merely bias.

[writerranger]

Couldn't have made the argument better myself. When built south of the river yet connected via a bridge to the Core to Shore area, this will definitely add to the city's quality of life.

We have got to dream big here and think big picture, folks. Three major resort casinos to the north of the river, a retail area adjacent to the casinos, and a bridge/walkway across the river to the soccer complex/park. I love the idea of having biking and running trails through it as well.

Are you talking Indian casinos or do you mean going to the legislature to become a true-blue, big-time casino state with Harrahs and others thast could truly build, "major resort casinos." ????

-------------------

[Theo Walcott]

I'm talking about a zoning and legalization of 3 lots for privately owned casino corporations and/or potential Indian purchasers that demonstrate feasibility and plans for casino hotel complexes.

It needs to be done in an upscale manner and not cheap. A minimum of 20 floors for each I would say.

[Spartan]

First, read this report:
http://www.sportkc.org/news/document...ort9-29-05.pdf

Now, consider the following developments going forward.

1. Soccer Specific Stadium on the river near the newly renovated I-40, acommpanied with 10-15 youth fields.

-Uses include:
-Major League Soccer
-Youth tournaments
-Concerts
-High School football state championships
-High School soccer state championships

2. Zoning and legalization for up to 3 casino hotels on the river.

3. An artfully-done retail complex bringing the two areas together.

Wastes of urban space.

[Theo Walcott]

retail complexes, casinos, and stadiums are wastes of urban space? no, i'm pretty sure your post was a waste of cyber space.

[SpectralMourning]

Wastes of urban space.

I'm not so sure. If done correctly, it could be placed perfectly in line with a new OKC. A multipurpose stadium that would fulfill our MLS requirements and potential NFL requirements could be situated in the Wiley Post Park and beyond to SW 23rd St. with a massive park (as an extension of the Core to Shore park, perhaps the whole park would be Wiley Post Park?) and tasteful parking garage surrounding the facility. I would also figure that a multipurpose stadium could only do wonders for Capitol Hill if developed properly.

I would figure the park culmination around the complex would extend from Central Ave to the Oklahoma! River tributary (perhaps to Shartel, but I can see the development problems there.) Maybe our beacon could be two large towers off of Shartel and Central, but I don't think it'd pull off a desired effect with the more than likely postmodern stadium in the center.

I'm not sure what the negative effects in building at this location, other than cost risk factors and redevelopment of Shields Blvd (which must be done anyway in my opinion to better serve Capitol Hill.)

As for the casinos, I'm not sure if I'm a fan of those in the downtown area, maybe along the river or to redevelop the Meridian Ave. corridor along the river (after massive rezoning, of course. I don't think anyone can convince me that you can't spark non-industrial development in that area. anyway...) The only thing that would drive me crazy is that a privately-owned casino would play off the Oklahoma stereotypes (I can almost confidently bet you that our first private casino will be named the "Oklahoma!" casino. LOL) but if done tastefully, casinos would be a great addition to that corridor.

I think we all could suggest a use of an NFL and MLS-capacity stadium that could serve multiple tenants. Essentially it would be rather expensive, but I'm sure the costs now aren't nearly as high as they would be 30-50 years down the line. Keep in mind the amount of time Core to Shore will more than likely take 10-20 years (based upon the pathetic, new five-year estimate on the completion of the I-40 relocation, but that's a different animal.) What all could we use a multipurpose stadium for that would justify the expense, other than MLS and NFL?

[metro]

Is this thread de ja vu? We've talked about this before bringing up the same arguments. And even in a MAPS3 thread. Hellooooooooo

[Easy180]

That is GREAT worldwide publicity and would be incredible.

I have been doing some research on this topic, and really, it's difficult to understand. Why ARE many Americans so vehemently anti-soccer?

They say a 3-1 match is boring, yet would insist that a 21-7 football game would be good entertainment? THAT makes no sense.

I think it's largely to do with (a) soccer not having been originated in the U.S.; (b) some kind of pseudo-nationalistic, quasi-Napoleanic reaction against the "rest of the stupid world."; and (c) a uniquely American "machoism" where they think that soccer involves no physicality relative to other sports.

Whatever the case may be, to hold such a negative sentiment about a sport is ignorance. I'm not saying you HAVE to like it or be a fan, but at the very least you'd think these types would at the least acknowledge that it is in fact a sport (and a difficult one at that to play) and that there is a reason why billions like the game.

Yes that is exactly what I am saying..A 3-1 soccer match is much more boring than a 21-7 football game...There is a reason why soccer hasn't taken off in America....Bunch of little dudes running around kicking a ball isn't entertaining

I am not anti soccer just not interested in sports w/ little entertainment value...softball is fun to play...not so fun to watch...same with soccer

It would not work in Oklahoma

[CuatrodeMayo]

retail complexes, casinos, and stadiums are wastes of urban space? no, i'm pretty sure your post was a waste of cyber space.

There is no need for that. Are all ball kickers this militant?


Don't you have a pre-algebra test tomorrow?

[scotplum]

Yes that is exactly what I am saying..A 3-1 soccer match is much more boring than a 21-7 football game...There is a reason why soccer hasn't taken off in America....Bunch of little dudes running around kicking a ball isn't entertaining

I am not anti soccer just not interested in sports w/ little entertainment value...softball is fun to play...not so fun to watch...same with soccer

It would not work in Oklahoma

Hey, I love football as much as any Oklahoman but a 3-1 soccer score and a 21-7 football score is essentially the same thing in that a total of 4 "scores" were made (not counting extra points). Just because you get more points in football for scoring does not mean the game had more scores. If it's scoring you want then basketball, bowling or boxing is your game.

Just saying.

[scotplum]

There is no need for that. Are all ball kickers this militant?


Don't you have a pre-algebra test tomorrow?

LOL.

No, but fans of soccer in the US are always immediately put on the defensive. I'm telling you guys, once you get into it and have a vested interest in a team or even a player, it's pretty exciting stuff. At least, in my opinion.

[traxx]

If you don't think that a 6'5" 350 pound person running a 4.6 forty yard dash isn't a freak (as in an abormality), then really there is no arguing to be done with you. You are set in your ways, and that much is clear. You have no appreciation for something that the majority of the world enjoys more than any other sport.

Well one of those freaks signed with OU yesterday. Phil Loadholt. He's 6'9" and his weight has been listed anywhere from 325 to 350 and although he doesn't run a 4.6 40 he runs it in about 5 which is still better than alot of us could do. What's a few tenths of a second? And he's not even a pro.

You're right, I have no appreciation for something the majority of the world enjoys because I don't subscribe to the theory that a thousand monkeys can't be wrong. At one time the majority of the world engaged in some kind of slavery. Evern though it was a majority didn't mean I would want to be a part of it.

[Theo Walcott]

All of those saying that soccer "would not work" in our market are clearly not being mindful of our city's wonderful legacy of supporting sports in the city.

Think about how many fans show up to the Blazers games. Few things are more pointless than minor league hockey, and yet our fans show up in droves and good for them! The MLS is priced comparatively to Blazers hockey but is a legitimate 1st tier professional league. People will show up. History, the demographics of the market, and common sense tells that story.

[Easy180]

All of those saying that soccer "would not work" in our market are clearly not being mindful of our city's wonderful legacy of supporting sports in the city.

Think about how many fans show up to the Blazers games. Few things are more pointless than minor league hockey, and yet our fans show up in droves and good for them! The MLS is priced comparatively to Blazers hockey but is a legitimate 1st tier professional league. People will show up. History, the demographics of the market, and common sense tells that story.

Not a big fan of hockey either, but throw in some fights in soccer and I may check it out

Hey it might work what do I know, but if getting a MLS team somehow prevents a NBA or NFL team to come here I would be super pi**ed

[Theo Walcott]

An MLS team compliments an NBA team.

We won't be getting an NFL team for at least another 20 years. It's going to be hard enough to get a $75 million complex built; the reality is that getting a $750 million football stadium is far more difficult to achieve. Not only would the city and state be hard pressed to outlay so much cash, but also you have to contend with the likes of OU who would viciously oppose such a stadium.

Here is the situation: We will be getting an NBA team, which is the best entertainment for the winter months, seeing as how we won't be getting the NFL anytime soon.

We cannot get an MLB team because supporting a team for 81 games at 30-35k per game is a stiff order for this market.

Therefore, for the summertime months and to compliment the NBA, the MLS is basically our only option and, as I've tried to convey, I think it's a growing league and would be a good thing for the city and would work well with the Core to Shore development.