The Maps 3 rundown...

[Theo Walcott]

First, read this report:
http://www.sportkc.org/news/document...ort9-29-05.pdf

Now, consider the following developments going forward.

1. Soccer Specific Stadium on the river near the newly renovated I-40, acommpanied with 10-15 youth fields.

-Uses include:
-Major League Soccer
-Youth tournaments
-Concerts
-High School football state championships
-High School soccer state championships

2. Zoning and legalization for up to 3 casino hotels on the river.

3. An artfully-done retail complex bringing the two areas together.

[Easy180]

I like the casino and retail center ideas...Not so hip on the soccer stadium, but might be just cause I can't stand the sport

[CuatrodeMayo]

I think this belongs on the Edmond board...

[Theo Walcott]

absolutely not. Wantland should only serve as an MLS facility for the short term. the City needs a beautiful showcase stadium along the River.

[jbrown84]

I'm not opposed to a stadium, but I don't think that we should use a huge swath of land for kids soccer fields in such a prime area. There's plenty of room in the 'burbs.

[traxx]

This is a football state not a futbol state. I've said it before and I'll say it again; I just don't see MLS being successful in the US let alone in Oklahoma. There's still no guarantee that Beckham can save MLS in this country. Why would we want to jump aboard a sinking ship. Why not go with something that's proved it's success over several decades like the NBA.

[TStheThird]

Save the MLS? Sinking Ship? Traxx, stick to commenting on subjects you understand. The MLS is in a period of strong growth. They just signed a revenue producing TV contract. The teams finally have their own stadiums... they are finally making money off of their stadiums. Teams are picking up good sponsorship contracts. League wide attendance is increasing.

The MLS will continue to grow. It will never be as popular as American football, but it will make good profits in the long run. Edmond, Norman, and Tulsa are fairly big soccer communities. The MLS could work in OK. Where is the pioneer spirit? At one time, the NFL, MLB, NBA were all young leagues. They all had slow starts and eventually became big money producers.

I think there are problems with the MLS and there are things I would change, but that is a different discussion for a different day. I could see an MLS stadium built along the river being a success, but I am not a fan of huge land use for multiple youth fields. On the other hand, I could support that in the right location, south of the river.

[scotplum]

I'd love to see the MLS in Oklahoma. Unfortunately, I think public opinion against soccer will probably deter that from happening.

[Theo Walcott]

There really is no reason why the MLS would not work in OKC as a viable summertime sporting option. The demographics are there, the money is there, it just needs to be put into place.

In case you didn't notice, Oklahoma ranked 29th of all states in the number of registered players with U.S. Youth Soccer, which is very significant given the state's population.

I really don't understand these concerns about the youth fields as taking up "prime real estate." Put the stadium right on the river on the Southern side, and put the fields south of the stadium...plenty of room for other developments.

[okcitian]

Its true that Soccer popularity is on the rise. A nice MLS team around downtown will make it nice but i'm not sure if it will ever happen. Youth tournaments around the stadium will make the place look like a suburb or some European cities since they place these soccer parks near thier downtowns or dense areas.

[Theo Walcott]

Yes, this facility would look very upscale and would be a sensational and beautiful addition to the city. If the stadium were built at a slight diagonal angle on the river where the skyline would be visible from the ends (the large roof structure for shade would obstruct a skyline view in a north-south arrangement), this would be ideal.

[jbrown84]

I really don't understand these concerns about the youth fields as taking up "prime real estate." Put the stadium right on the river on the Southern side, and put the fields south of the stadium...plenty of room for other developments.

You said nothing about it being south of the River before. Everything else has been talked about for Core to Shore, which is north of the river.

[Theo Walcott]

ah well, I was not familiar with there being a distinction between things North and South of the river, I just thought both sides would be developed.

since Core to Shore does not include South of the River, then perhaps a bridge could be constructed to adjoin the northern developments with the south. this really could propel OKC into another dimension.

[jbrown84]

Yes, that's not a bad idea. There is already the Mat Hoffman Skate Park on the south side and the former Downtown Airpark is to be developed by Kirk and Grant Humphreys. The problem would be how much land would need to be acquired to build all that.

[traxx]

Save the MLS? Sinking Ship? Traxx, stick to commenting on subjects you understand. The MLS is in a period of strong growth. They just signed a revenue producing TV contract. The teams finally have their own stadiums... they are finally making money off of their stadiums. Teams are picking up good sponsorship contracts. League wide attendance is increasing.

The MLS will continue to grow. It will never be as popular as American football, but it will make good profits in the long run. Edmond, Norman, and Tulsa are fairly big soccer communities. The MLS could work in OK. Where is the pioneer spirit? At one time, the NFL, MLB, NBA were all young leagues. They all had slow starts and eventually became big money producers.

I think there are problems with the MLS and there are things I would change, but that is a different discussion for a different day. I could see an MLS stadium built along the river being a success, but I am not a fan of huge land use for multiple youth fields. On the other hand, I could support that in the right location, south of the river.

Revenue producing and profitable are two very different things. If MLS is in such a great place, then why did I see headlines asking if David Beckham could save MLS? Are they all as misinformed as I am.

Speaking of pioneer spirit, if memory serves, didn't we have a team in that pioneer league of the USFL. Let's be smart about where we want to pioneer in the future.

[Theo Walcott]

traxx, there is no reason we can't have the NBA in the fall/winter and the MLS in the spring/summer. they actually compliment each other well in that respect.

did you read the Kansas City market evaluation for the MLS? if you did, you would have seen that Oklahoma has more youth soccer players than either Kansas or Missouri, that our state's cost of living and income factors would figure very nicely, and that our hispanic population is probably at least double that of Kansas or Missouri.

this idea that the MLS wouldn't work because Oklahoma is a "football state" is largely (and unfortunately I believe) rooted in ignorance. people were saying the same thing about the NBA, and look how well that has gone over.

the MLS will offer great spring and summer entertainment at prices that are easily the best deal in all of professional sports. people would buy into it, especially if a new facility were constructed on the river among these new developments as I have suggested. the MLS has been around since 1995 and is indeed growing each and every year. that league isn't going anywhere, nor should it given the nation's demographics. why not be a "pioneer" in something that will continue to grow and become a cornerstone of a burgeoning opportunity?

[Easy180]

Well I can tell you we definitely aren't a big soccer state since our two major universities team's get zero press while football and basketball get major coverage....I wouldn't assume that just because we have a good amount of youth players that their parents would then turn around and buy season tix in mass...There are large amounts of youth bowlers in Oklahoma and you can imagine how many parents watch the 50 yr old guys in leisure suits on ESPN2

My guess is many of those parents enjoy watching their kids play, but watch very little to no soccer outside of that...I don't know a single person that watches MLS games

Know a lot of people who watched NBA before we had the Hornets and they have turned out in large numbers to see NBA stars on the visiting teams...Not so much when a star goalie is coming in from D.C.

[Theo Walcott]

Negative, negative, negative. Can't, can't, can't. This crap from all of you soccer naysayers is seriously old hat. You think the Wake Forest, Ohio State, Duke, and North Carolina soccer programs garner significant media coverage relative to other college sports? Come on.

And yes, were either of the major university's teams to make a run for a national championship, then there would be media coverage from all outlets.

I wonder why you don't know anybody who watches MLS in OKC at present? Why would they? What interest would they have? That comparison to bowling was completely disingenuous and absurd.

If you don't think that 10-15,000 people would turn out for MLS matches in the spring and summer along the River, then there clearly isn't any reasoning with you. Cheap tickets, a good entertainment product, a growing national league of the world's most popular sport, and a great new facility on the river. People will show up in droves.

[BDP]

If you don't like the MLS, you don't have to go to a game, but the possibility of it as an OKC stadium tennant is what can be used to get a large outdoor multi-use facility downtown. If done correctly, it would in no way be exclusively an MLS stadium. Many other sporting and entertainment events could be accomodated with such a facility. These events would, as of now, have to skip or overlook OKC. However, the possibility of the MLS as a tennant greatly increases the feasability and ROI of any proposed facility.

I'd probably take my family to a couple of games, just to hang out on a nice day, but I am not a soccer fan. However, if the metro area is going to have MLS, you want to the facility to be built downtown, trust me. If we go the way of the 70s and build one in the burbs, doing it again downtown at a later date would only saturate the market and make both facilties less profitable and may even slow down the possibilty of building one in OKC altogether.

If you want a stadium downtown at all, you should support the MLS concept as a means to an end, not as the end itself.

[metro]

Theo, whats so new on this MAPS 3 "rundown". These topics have already been discussed in the existing MAPS 3 threads. Just FYI in case your in the know......

[traxx]

Theo, I'm not saying that we can't have two professional sports, I'm just questioning that second sport being soccer. I gotta agree with Easy on this one. Youth leagues does not necesarrily translate into pent up demand for MLS.

The reason many said NBA wouldn't work here was a money thing. They thought that not enough people had the money to buy NBA tickets and season tickets. With MLS it's an interest thing and I think you would be hard pressed to find enough interests in pro soccer in OKC to support a team and justify a new stadium. I just don't want OKC to jump on this and then not be able to support it so we have a big stadium downtown going to waste for most weekends out of the year (I realize it could be used for other things sometimes).

And I don't buy the argument that the idea of it not working in Oklahoma is rooted in ignorance. Just because people don't like a particular sport or like another one better doesn't mean they're ignorant. I know, Europe is the Mac to the US's PC, everything Europe does is cool, so if they are so nuts over soccer then us ignorant Americans must be missing something.

[Theo Walcott]

Yup. It needs to be right on the river as part of a larger complex...i.e. casinos, retail, and upscale residential to the north. It would add an incredible amount of class to the city and would be a defining touchstone for the future.

Think about something like this...

[Theo Walcott]

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[Easy180]

Negative, negative, negative. Can't, can't, can't. This crap from all of you soccer naysayers is seriously old hat. You think the Wake Forest, Ohio State, Duke, and North Carolina soccer programs garner significant media coverage relative to other college sports? Come on.

And yes, were either of the major university's teams to make a run for a national championship, then there would be media coverage from all outlets.

I wonder why you don't know anybody who watches MLS in OKC at present? Why would they? What interest would they have? That comparison to bowling was completely disingenuous and absurd.

If you don't think that 10-15,000 people would turn out for MLS matches in the spring and summer along the River, then there clearly isn't any reasoning with you. Cheap tickets, a good entertainment product, a growing national league of the world's most popular sport, and a great new facility on the river. People will show up in droves.

Didn't say anything about getting coverage compared to football and basketball...There is no need to use the term relative to as they get zero coverage regardless of how good they are...If so many people are already interested in soccer wouldn't it be safe to assume the media would catch on?

Used the bowling reference to counter your assumption that just because there are many youth players in soccer doesn't necessarily mean it would translate to sellouts...Not trying to be rude, but I think with scores of 2-1 and 3-2 that many may find the product as entertaining as bowling...A nice stadium only goes so far if many people are bored with the product

15,000 people may show up at the beginning, but the cynic in me doesn't think a pro soccer team in Okla could sustain that over many years...Football, basketball yes....Baseball possibly...Soccer no

[Theo Walcott]

You obviously aren't familiar with how successful the Tulsa Roughnecks were. Of course that league went bankrupt, but the MLS has managed itself remarkably well over the years and is growing.

What isn't sustainable about cheap tickets and good family entertainment?

BTW, a 3-2 game is more exciting than you would think. And please stop with the bowling crap. Only NBA players can compare with soccer players in terms of sheer athletic ability. Bowling, baseball, and yes, even American football players have nothing on the athleticism of soccer players.