Car Shopping

[Julesc2001]

My husband and I are going to do some car shopping this weekend. We live in NW OKC and are looking at Toyota dealerships around town. We always hear great things about Norman and the "Mile of Cars" but is it really worth the drive? We have Bob Howard about 5 minutes away.... can we save a great deal of money by making the drive to Norman?

Opinions appreciated!! Thanks.

[Easy180]

I doubt it...Think Bob Howard and Bob Moore (I believe) in Norman are comparable...I did the reverse for my current car...Went to Norman first spent about 3 hours there with all the dealership sales fun and then went to Bob Howard with a slightly more tame sales approach

Guys at Bob Moore did all the classic sales techniques complete with sales mgr shaking his head in disbelief, showing me damage on my trade in, creative purchase figures etc....I wouldn't really recommend it based on my experience

I would save the drive and get it close to where you live...Will likely get better treatment in the service dept since you actually bought the car there

[traxx]

I live in the Norman area but kinda doubt that it'd be worth the drive if you've got Bob Howard nearby.

The thing I've noticed that really helps me is paying cash for a vehicle. Now if you're buying a brand, spanking, new car that may be a little difficult but it can help in dealing with all the crap Easy was talking about.

We did a cash deal on an Expedition just last September and we were in and out in about an hour. Got a great vehicle and a decent deal.

People will tell ya that dealers would rather you finance because they get more out of you over a long period of time but because of the Time Value of money, a dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow. They'd rather have the cash in hand. And when I say cash, I don't mean a check, I mean greenbacks.

[SoonerDave]

The very best advice, regardless of the dealership you use, is to go in armed with factual pricing information ahead of time.

*NEVER* find a car, fall in love with it, and then try negotating from the sticker price down.. ALWAYS endeavor to negotiate UP from what would generally be called the dealer's "invoice" price. Several pricing services are available that will give you this kind of information.

Now, that said, invoice prices are never representative of what the dealer pays for the car. Mixed into the eventual "take" price at which a dealership will sell a given car are things like floor plan allowances (where a dealer gets a kickback for taking several "slow sellers" into his inventory), holdback (flat percentage of the car's invoice price, usually around 1% or so), and a few other charges, so the best you can do is get "pretty close" to what he "really" pays for the car. Although its been two years since I priced a car this way, getting to invoice + $200 is a pretty good deal.

The last time I bought a car, I found identical cars at three different dealerships via the manufacturer's website. I printed out my price sheet for each one of them, factored in a rebate that was available at the time, and walked in telling the dealer that I would pay "x" amount for this car right now. After rebates, I ended up with a price that was about $500 below the "invoice" price.

Never talk about trade-ins first. You're almost always better off selling any existing cars in a separate transaction. Dealers just offset whatever "great deal" they're giving you into the final price of the car. Never talk about financing, either, if you can avoid it. The best of all worlds would be to visit your bank or credit union and get "pre-approved" for a loan up to a certain amount, unless you know there's some sort of promotional rate from the manufacturer you know to be better.

You'll get hit with the "post-sale sell-up" for things like undercoating, seat protector, paint sealant, all of which are worthless and represent nearly PURE profit for the dealer. Decline all of them. I once told the "post sale" guy that he could save himself and me a lot of time if he just gave up trying to sell me stuff I wasn't going to buy, because there "was bound to be someone on the floor right now who will." Made him really angry, but I was through that part of the process in less than five minutes.

Those are just a few tips that have made car buying for me quite enjoyable.

-SoonerDave

[Easy180]

great tips soonerdave....Also go to edmunds.com and price out the exact make and model with the package/options you are looking for...They have a what people are paying in your area figure that is helpful in knowing what you should end up paying...Print it out and take it in to the dealership with you...Serves as a good sign to your salesman you did your homework and know whats up

Great rule of thumb...Guy with slick backed hair in the finance office...Not your friend

[traxx]

Great tips SoonerDave. I've read alot of these tips on Consumer Reports. It's a good way to not get screwed.

Kinda reminds me of that Seinfeld where Jerry's going to get a great deal on a car from Puddy but when Puddy and Elaine break up the screwjob is on.

Puddy: Undercoating, overcost, floormats, keys...
Jerry: Keys?
Puddy: How're you gonna start the car? Warranty, gas, finder's fee...
Jerry: Finder's Fee? It was on the lot.
Puddy: Yeah, that's right.

Later, after Puddy and Elaine have gotten back together

Jerry: ...And the undercoating?
Puddy: We don't even know what that is.

[zuluwarrior0760]

A "deal" is made up of:

1. Going to research the "beyond the radar" resources
to find out the makeup of the dealer's true cost....

go to: Car information, new car prices, used car values, used car reviews, new car reviews - MSN Autos to calculate an invoice price
that is your starting point.

go to: New car prices, used car pricing, auto reviews by Edmunds car buying guide to calculate rebates and incentives,
although they are notorious for not including regional rebates/incentives
that can total thousands in some cases (you want the dealer to have those???)

on that same site, click on forums and you'll find "what people paid" forums
(you know what a forum is obviously) this will give you some insight on what real dealer discounts in other areas are....they are grouped by vehicle.....
seeing a guy in Washintgton state saving 5K off a car that you've only gotten 3k off on is very telling......

one resouce I've found useful, but it is very hard to find is to use the Dallas Morning News Dealer Display ads, which are searchable by dealership........you can gain a lot of useful insight from that competitive market' price leader ads, if you see a Toyota Van discounted 6K in Dallas, you can be sure that someone in OKC can get there too if pressed.......if not, just drive to Dallas to get the van and enjoy your warranty here.....

click on auto dealers here:
Dallas Morning News | Dallas Shopping | Newspaper Ads Online | Ad Categories

Most important:

NEVER NEVER NEVER let a dealer appraise your trade in before agreeing to a firm in writing sale price on the one you're buying.......this is where dealer's can hoodwink even the brightest buyer, by making it about trade value, payment, etc...they divert your attention from price, which you should know controls everything else such as payment etc....so keep your eye on the price and then at the end spring the trade on them and you will then see what they'll really give for it at which point you'll realize that you are ALWAYS better off selling a car out of the driveway......an ad, a detail job and a few phone calls is worth 1500.00...usually more.....there are no exceptions to this, you ALWAYS get more selling yourself, but you might not believe it if you let a dealer make your whole deal about trade in allowance.......GREAT NEWS MR SCHMOE, WE'RE GIVING YOU 11 GRAND FOR YOUR OLD SLED.......

Less important:

Dealers really don't care whether you finance or pay cash.....they do NOT
get any real benefit from a cash sale. I worked in the finance dept of a major
OKC dealership for 5 years and I am telling you, it's just no difference to them...
they do get a small commission from a bank even if they sell you money for their
cost, the bank pays them a minimimum fee that they call a "MINI" from the word minimimum.....they do make some good $$ when they "mark up" the interest rate, but that is RARE these days since you can pick up the phone and call the bank they're financing you with.....

Warranties:

Dealers need to sell you a warranty to make up for thinning margins on vehicles
and thinning margins on financing...my advice: don't buy one
Toyota has a 5 year/60k warranty that will last you a long time......and the dealer
is LYING if they tell you that you can't walk in and buy one at 60K, if that were true, then explain how they sell them to people who buy 60k mile used cars....

You're just not gonna see the discounts on Toyota as you will on domestics, but that's just supply/demand/desireability......also Toyotas aren't priced as high
to start with, so their sales model is not rebate oriented.....

I just got 11k off a new Ford Truck and my wife got 15k off a new suburban
last year......my mom got 4k off a new Toyota minivan and she did WELL.....

You can't get more than 2-3 grand off a new BMW or Mercedes or Lexus and
those places are doing good business......

Dealership have gradually hosed themselves over the past 20 years or so....
American car makers have ratcheted up prices as well as rebates, but they
have no secrets now......anyone can pull up their cost, everyone seems to know their profit structure and how to exploit it, but at every new car dealership in Oklahoma City there are a handful of people each month that they call a "trophy bass"........someone who came in and did it all wrong, had them look at their trade, picked out a car, worked from sticker down, then based everything on payment, not term, or interest rate and let them hit them for a warranty, credit life and never asked or TOLD the dealer about rebates and incentives, meaning the dealer got to keep it all.....even in this age of information, people every month at every dealership in OKC get hosed for 5 and 6k profits, when the average is less than 600.....

I know a guy who purchased a truck almost just like the one I got 11K off on, and he traded in a car that I would have given him 5 grand for all day long and the dealer gave him 11K for his trade off of list and that was it......

That means compared to my deal, he gave that dealer a 5K used car for free.....
but the dealer was not a non profit organization.....!!

Finally, two tips I've found to be true over the years:

1. Dealers savor NOTHING more than hosing their fellow dealers of the same
make out of a sale.......they will drop their shorts pretty quick when you start spouting "I FOUND AT BOB HOWARD" "DUB RICHARDSON HAS ONE FOR......"
etc....

2. There is some truth to Dealers dropping their shorts on the last day or
night of the month........it is truly a race to the finish in terms of meeting
projections that managers have promised the owner.....as sad as it is to say:
Some of those guys on that last hour of the last day of the month are not
just fighting for sales, they're literally fighting for the jobs......

So:

Do all the research
Hold on to your trade
Pit dealers against one another (not on the internet, but in person)
Shop at the end (very end) of the month.....
Get your own money before you shop
Resist the warranty and CERTAINLY any adds like alarms, tint, bedliners,
undercoating or paint packages......(or keys)......I can't
believe there are still snake oil guys selling that stuff.....

All things put together with info on your side, you'll end up saving
as much money as can be saved......

As to which dealer is better:

Fowler in Norman has been there a long time, but they're a bit stingy
Bob Howard is reputable and competitive and pretty laid back
Hudiburg is a wild card, but probably just fine
Don't count out small town dealers, stillwater, guthrie etc.....
Finally, avoid Dub Richardson on NWExpressway like the plague......
they tried to take advantage of my mother in their service dept
after she bought a Sienna Van......that is something a dealership
would be wise not to try with me........

[boiler4979]

not to be a snot....but I think she was asking for comparisons between car shopping on the Broadway Extension in Edmond versus driving down to the Mile of Cars in Norman....seems everyone got a little off track...lol

Personally, I would agree with the first response to your post....looking online, both dealerships have new car specials. Being the end of the month...and such, a month where there has probably been little car buying (due to inclement weather on 2 of the weekends), you should be able to get good deals at either place. They should be trying hard to at least sell something before this month is over...to get their numbers up. Plus, its always nice to take your car into service at the dealership that you bought it at...thus buying closer to home would work.

Good luck...I'm sure that like any other potential car shopper, you have already done your research and are ready to go. Let us know how it goes!

[SoonerDave]

seems everyone got a little off track

Well, not really. Shopping by "month," or skimming the dealer's "deals" are almost always bad deals for the customer. They're almost always teasers on cars they know no one would really buy, "one-only's", anything to get you in the door. Worse, still, is that virtually all of these teaser buys are priced from the sticker down, eg GREAT DEAL - $5,000 of MSRP which is precisely what most posters in this thread have advised that people avoid doing.

-SoonerDave

[traxx]

not to be a snot....but I think she was asking for comparisons between car shopping on the Broadway Extension in Edmond versus driving down to the Mile of Cars in Norman....seems everyone got a little off track...lol!

First off: Why is everything lol on message boards? I've seen very few statements with an "lol" after it that are actually laugh-out-loud funny.

Second: With a question like this you knew we'd get off track because we're all experts here. Everyone knows more than the last person.

Just kiddin'. I'm just bustin yer chops boiler. I really have nothing of value to add.

[zuluwarrior0760]

[QUOTE=boiler4979;82756]not to be a snot....but I think she was asking for comparisons between car shopping on the Broadway Extension in Edmond versus driving down to the Mile of Cars in Norman....seems everyone got a little off track...lol QUOTE]

BOILER,
If the answer is to be confined to Broadway Extension versus Norman
and stick to the facts...then why are you talking about:

New Car Specials
End of the Month
Little car buying due to inclement weather for two weekends
Either place having good deals (how's that for a non answer to her query?)
Trying to get their numbers up before the month's over
Getting service where you bought the car
Buying close to home
All buyers do their research (NOW THAT IS LOL!!!!!!!!)

Oops you fell off track!!!!! LOL!!!!!!!!!

[Julesc2001]

Yall are mean!! haa...

Well, we got a great deal... we got a 2007 Camry for what Edmonds posts as Invoice. We feel we did a good job!

It is a slick looking car too. Love it! Thanks for all the help!!!

[traxx]

Yall are mean!! haa...

Well, we got a great deal... we got a 2007 Camry for what Edmonds posts as Invoice. We feel we did a good job!

It is a slick looking car too. Love it! Thanks for all the help!!!

Nice car. I really like Camrys and Toyotas are great cars.

[SoonerBent]

I doubt it...Think Bob Howard and Bob Moore (I believe) in Norman are comparable...I did the reverse for my current car...Went to Norman first spent about 3 hours there with all the dealership sales fun and then went to Bob Howard with a slightly more tame sales approach

Guys at Bob Moore did all the classic sales techniques complete with sales mgr shaking his head in disbelief, showing me damage on my trade in, creative purchase figures etc....I wouldn't really recommend it based on my experience

I would save the drive and get it close to where you live...Will likely get better treatment in the service dept since you actually bought the car there

I got a kick out of reading this. Last year we bought a Jeep Liberty from Bob Howard. We went to Bob Moore first and spent three hours listening to the classic salesman/sales manager garbage. We left. Bob Howard had a Liberty ad at the time for about $3000 less than Bob Moores final offer but as soonerdave said I figured it was a ploy. I called Bob Howard anyway and it turned out to be exactly the same as what Bob Moore had and we wanted, a white Liberty Sport. Not only that but the salesman told me if we wanted another color it was no problem. Any identically equipped unit they would sell for that price. I told the saleman we were on the way. He had the Liberty washed and sitting right outside the door when we got there. Paperwork pretty much filled out too. We were there all of 45 minutes. BTW, the price was right on according to Edmunds.

And traxx, pretty car!

[traxx]

Thanks, but it's not mine. I was just quoting, that's why it's in my post.

[SoonerBent]

Thanks, but it's not mine. I was just quoting, that's why it's in my post.

Oops, I got lost there somewhere! Old age ya know.

[metro]

I got my Toyota (Scion) at Bob Howard as well. Even though Scion's are menu priced, I think they could have done better. I shopped around a couple of dealers and they were about the same though. I haggled with them for 3 days and they didn't budge on the price. As someone said though, it may be worth it to pay just a few bucks more if that's where you're going to service your vehicle, you might get better service. Either way, I can sell my used Scion for almost as much as a new one since they are in such high demand. You can't go wrong with a Toyota or Honda (Japanese know best).

[traxx]

I got my Toyota (Scion) at Bob Howard as well. Even though Scion's are menu priced, I think they could have done better.

Maybe I'm just having a brain fart, but what does menu priced mean?

[metro]

menu priced refers to a "menu" pricing structure. such as the car is $15,000, wheels are $1000 to add, $300 for premium stereo, etc. Basically you build the vehicle you want and everything's price is up front similar to a restaurant menu.

[zuluwarrior0760]

"Menu Priced" is a tame way of saying
full sticker price....

I've always found it amusing that a Scion
product would be priced this way while
in the same building Camrys are being
discounted 3500 bucks....or how Saturn used
to try it while another GM vehicle
under the Cadillac banner was being discounted
15 grand.....

The "it's sticker or you walk" routine works
as long as two things occur:

The dealers all get together to price fix

and

The customers continue to say "ok, i'll pay sticker"

As long as the dealers can make the cars fetch list price,
they're right to do so........

[Rage 2.0]

I don't know what the Honda dealership in OKC is called but get a Honda -- There great and last a while too... Plus you don't lose value on the car... A Honda is a Honda it will always sell...

[Curt]

I don't know what the Honda dealership in OKC is called but get a Honda -- There great and last a while too... Plus you don't lose value on the car... A Honda is a Honda it will always sell...

Thats the American attitude...Buy a Honda..or any Jap Crap and put more American workers out of work..

[Rage 2.0]

Thats the American attitude...Buy a Honda..or any Jap Crap and put more American workers out of work..

Ok... Im pretty sure Honda builds most of there cars in the USA... Umm lets buy a Ford and aww yeah...

F-ound
O-N
R-oad
D-ead

I don't think there is any chance to save ford at what it is currently at... GMC is cool...

So and the parts Ford gets-- Umm there from Asia soo...

[Curt]

Ok... Im pretty sure Honda builds most of there cars in the USA... Umm lets buy a Ford and aww yeah...

F-ound
O-N
R-oad
D-ead

I don't think there is any chance to save ford at what it is currently at... GMC is cool...

So and the parts Ford gets-- Umm there from Asia soo...

Ummm...Your still supporting a foreign company...And for the record I work at Ford in research and devlopment...The American products are way better than the Jap products now...that could not be said years ago but now the American companies worst enemies are the American people who are still too uneducated to see that...Found On Road Dead huh....First On Race Day more like it...and GMC...out of all the trucks we test at work the Super Duty holds up better than any other vehicle...but the average uneducated buyer unfortunately cant see the facts like we do here in Detroit and those are the American companies really do put out a better vehicle than the Japs...but admit still have a ways to go to beat the Germans

[Easy180]

My Honda has had a total of $800 in repairs in the almost 8 years I've had it...Hard to beat by anyone Japanese, German or Domestic

I'm not for a particular brand, but quality ratings are a big factor...Open to pretty much anything

As for Ford...They screwed themselves royally by putting all their money into trucks and SUV's and are now getting hit hard since many are downsizing vehicles...Should have been pumping money into their cars and not just throwing out plain boxy Taurus's and 500 Hundred's....The Japanese are primarily known for their cars and are definitely reaping the benefits of higher gas prices