Streetcar

[Plutonic Panda]

I wonder if OKC will do that for metropolitan area light-rail

[soonerguru]

If memory serves, Kansas City has a "streetcar enthusiast" who said some really snarky things about OKC's streetcar plans. He was quoted a couple of times by Steve deriding couplets. Fortunately for us, ours is funded, and theirs relied on a screwy funding approach, and only went two miles. Also, we don't require federal funding. I'd say the situations are completely different.

Hope KC's streetcar gets "back on track," though.

[Urbanized]

Sounds like the KC residents didn't want to approve a MAPS-like tax, whereas OKC residents don't seem to have a problem with that (since we've been doing it for years), and hopefully OKC residents will keep doing it instead of stopping after this MAPS.

I just skimmed, but it sounded like what was rejected was a BID-type tax on properties fronting the alignment..? Similar to the special assessment districts along Broadway in OKC or along canal frontage in Bricktown but probably a LOT more...

And Guru, you're right, the KC streetcar advocate publicly ridiculed the OKC alignment when it was released.

[Laramie]

Kansas City has two miles running north to south in the central business district. You call that a starter; it's more of a transit tray appetizer of two petite servings of hors d'oeuvres.

The two-mile, north-south KC Downtown Streetcar starter line will travel along Main Street and connect the River Market to Crown Center and Union Station and will serve the Central Business District...

KC Streetcar | Construction website

"Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.

[LakeEffect]

I just skimmed, but it sounded like what was rejected was a BID-type tax on properties fronting the alignment..? Similar to the special assessment districts along Broadway in OKC or along canal frontage in Bricktown but probably a LOT more...

And Guru, you're right, the KC streetcar advocate publicly ridiculed the OKC alignment when it was released.

I don't disagree with the dislike of couplets; I don't think it's necessarily the best design. I like what KC has started, and I think they'll be able to get back on track.

[soonerguru]

I don't disagree with the dislike of couplets; I don't think it's necessarily the best design. I like what KC has started, and I think they'll be able to get back on track.

Well I politely disagree. I think the couplets in our route design will increase the ability to hop on and hop off from more locations in OKC. Were there not couplets, one would have to ride further to reach their destination. This just increases the opportunity for short trips on the streetcar to one's destination.

As for the jerkwad in Kansas City, he really is a poor representative of that city. Why is he running down OKC's system when his own system was clearly not solidified? As far as I've seen, people in OKC have been nothing but supportive of Kansas City's attempt to build a streetcar. Conversely, this guy was rapping all sorts of negative juice to our reporter when he visited Kansas City. Frankly, it's fairly obvious that Oklahoma City's streetcar process is far more sophisticated and sound than anything they tried up there.

[LakeEffect]

Well I politely disagree. I think the couplets in our route design will increase the ability to hop on and hop off from more locations in OKC. Were there not couplets, one would have to ride further to reach their destination. This just increases the opportunity for short trips on the streetcar to one's destination.

As for the jerkwad in Kansas City, he really is a poor representative of that city. Why is he running down OKC's system when his own system was clearly not solidified? As far as I've seen, people in OKC have been nothing but supportive of Kansas City's attempt to build a streetcar. Conversely, this guy was rapping all sorts of negative juice to our reporter when he visited Kansas City. Frankly, it's fairly obvious that Oklahoma City's streetcar process is far more sophisticated and sound than anything they tried up there.

If we have short headways, then couplets aren't too bad, but if they are 15 minute headways, going to and from lunch (for a downtown worker) will be limited at best. 6-minute headways would be helpful.

As for the KC guy, I never got that feeling... maybe I've got thicker skin when it comes to criticism of OKC, or maybe it's because I wasn't born and raised here. We've had a few back-and-forths via Twitter and he didn't rag on OKC at all, other than the couplet design.

[soonerguru]

There is nothing wrong with being anti-couplet. That doesn't make you anti-streetcar in the slightest. Heck, I still am. ESPECIALLY for OKC. The criticism existed publicly when there was a public discussion and that's where the criticism ended. I hope both cities are successful in implementing what they've democratically supported and funded.

OF course there's nothing wrong with having the wrong opinion! If there were, this country would have collapsed some time ago.

As for the couplets, I prefer them in this context, and they scored highest by the paid consultants, so we got them.

[Spartan]

The Kansas decision also has a lot to do with the method of funding, doesn't it?

On a side note I did think that limiting a ballot proposition to just voters in a special taxing district was just way too easy...

[AP]

When are we expecting the next update on this project?

[catch22]

I believe it is in engineering right now. So, pretty much on autopilot as construction plans and engineering documents are drawn up.

[Spartan]

We still have the drumroll until we know the actual budget.

[Urban Pioneer]

We are in the process of taking bids and selecting the manufacturer for the streetcar vehicles now. We should have an initial recommendation this month and potentially approved in late December or mid January. Then we will know what our vehicle costs are. Other than the steel rail, this is probably the largest line item purchase in the budget. The question that affects the overall budget the most will be utility relication costs. That still remains to be bidded as part of the construction bidding.

[CaptDave]

Thanks for the update.

[bchris02]

I am a bit worried that the city is going to go all out on the convention center and then cut or significantly scale back the streetcar. I am as pro-convention center as anyone and think the city needs to do it right, but the streetcar is an integral part of where downtown OKC is headed and I would hate to see it scaled down. Are these fears valid?

[BrettM2]

I am a bit worried that the city is going to go all out on the convention center and then cut or significantly scale back the streetcar. I am as pro-convention center as anyone and think the city needs to do it right, but the streetcar is an integral part of where downtown OKC is headed and I would hate to see it scaled down. Are these fears valid?

I would hope that the city is smart enough to understand that cutting the streetcar might derail all this downtown development they are hoping for. It could also impact the trust in future MAPS programs.

[kevinpate]

I am a bit worried that the city is going to go all out on the convention center and then cut or significantly scale back the streetcar. ... I would hate to see it scaled down. Are these fears valid?

For what it may be worth, the miles of trails originally envisioned were cut back significantly, and then funding was allocated to gain back back of the cut back, though not all. The number of senior wellness/aquatics centers originally discussed has been curtailed by more than a third if memory serves. The whitewater facility seems to be ok, despite coming in over budget. Perhaps other riverfront area plans have been cut back (not recalling for certain,) The park though nice doesn't seem to be as grandly planned as prior to the vote. The streetcar doesn't seem curtailed, to date. The cc has been expended a fair bit beyond what the voters were told would be phase one of two phases, and it's unknown how far over budget it will be. I do not presume it comes it at or below budget simply because nothing else has to date.

One can draw their own conclusions, but the city is simply doing what the voters gave their voice and blessing for the city fathers to go do .... here's a big ol' pot of money .... go spend it, hopefully on those things you said you would, but yeah, no one can really hold you to your list.

Hopeflly when all is said and done, it'll be close enough for horseshoes and govt. to pass the grumble factor.

[bchris02]

I would hope that the city is smart enough to understand that cutting the streetcar might derail all this downtown development they are hoping for. It could also impact the trust in future MAPS programs.

I agree. The streetcar was one of the most popular MAPS3 projects and also one of the most important. Cutting it would be the end of the MAPS brand.

[Snowman]

For what it may be worth, the miles of trails originally envisioned were cut back significantly, and then funding was allocated to gain back back of the cut back, though not all. The number of senior wellness/aquatics centers originally discussed has been curtailed by more than a third if memory serves. The whitewater facility seems to be ok, despite coming in over budget. Perhaps other riverfront area plans have been cut back (not recalling for certain,) The park though nice doesn't seem to be as grandly planned as prior to the vote. The streetcar doesn't seem curtailed, to date. The cc has been expended a fair bit beyond what the voters were told would be phase one of two phases, and it's unknown how far over budget it will be. I do not presume it comes it at or below budget simply because nothing else has to date.

...

On the river projects, the grandstand are effectively sure to be cut, the windscreen status is unsure and the lighted portion is probably going to be shorter than the original plan.

[soonerguru]

bchris,

This was addressed earlier in the thread. I'm not sure where this idea took root, but it continues to be shot down, only to reappear again.

The Convention Center has already been allocated an additional $35 million from MAPS contingency funds. This is because the MAPS collections have been ahead of projections, creating contingency funding.

Even after allocating the additional monies, contingency funds remain.

From every indication I have seen, the city will build this right.

I think you should relax a little knowing that the city is dedicated to completing it and we have the funding to do so.

[Spartan]

I think that as long as the contingency is fine, and additional contingency comes out of the extra CC funding first, then that is assuring. I am okay with the new convention center as long as it is designed right, but not at the expense of other projects.

[Urban Pioneer]

The concerns are at least not valid yet. We are running annual revenue surpluses, have a project contigency, have an overall MAPS 3 contingency, and an expendable "Phase 2". So, no reason to sound the alarm bells yet or be overly concerned about a convention center versus a streetcar project scenerio.

[HOT ROD]

good to hear Urban.

but it is nice to know that Streetcar has huge support and folks are-a watching the CC commitee (Nichols) so they don't just steamroll ahead to build the right CC. As others have said and I before, I am all in favor of a great Tier II convention center and even the phase 1 expansion as I think that will be cheaper in the long run to do under hudson now. BUT. That should be it with MAPS 3 funding - additional this or that for the CC should come from dedicated CC vote OR possibly Maps 4 and NOT from undercutting the Streetcar or the Park.

I'll leave with my favourite closing line - if the CC needs more money then take it from the Fairgrounds; who already has multiple revenue streams, is in the same line of business as the cc, has already been on past MAPS, and is already open for business. Give these new projects a chance. already - which I thought was the point of MAPS.

[Spartan]

So what were the seven bids from four manufacturers?

[HOT ROD]

ya I'm surprised at the lack of information, especially compared to the beginning of MAPS. Did Nichols scare the Modern Streetcar team away or put a gag order on them? Urban Pioneer, you still here?