The SouthSide Suburbs continue to lose out

[spursfaninoklahoma]

Texas de Brazil coming soon to Memorial/Western area.

Costco's planning on expanding to Memorial/Kirkpatrick area.

Top Golf opening along Memorial/Kirkpatrick area

Pappadeaux coming soon to Memorial/Kirkpatrick area

Yes all great news for the city but once again, none of these chains even sniffed the idea of expanding along the Southside area (I-240/Crossroads/I-44) As a friend told me earlier, "get over it, any mid to high end retail is just never going anywhere near the Southside of the City". What do you guys think, is there really that much of a hole on the SouthSide. Has the Southside chamber just not done enough to attract mid to high end retail?

[Pete]

Southside / Moore has the best theater in the Metro (Warren).

Also will be getting a Winco.

Costco, when it does come to town, will certainly open a South / Moore location.

And there are plenty of great restaurants downtown that are neither north nor south.

[bchris02]

Yes all great news for the city but once again, none of these chains even sniffed the idea of expanding along the Southside area (I-240/Crossroads/I-44) As a friend told me earlier, "get over it, any mid to high end retail is just never going anywhere near the Southside of the City". What do you guys think, is there really that much of a hole on the SouthSide. Has the Southside chamber just not done enough to attract mid to high end retail?

There just isn't going to be a resurgence of high-end retail in the Crossroads or I-240 area. The demographics of that area have changed. It's sad because I remember when I-240 was at its peak in the 1990s. It's no easy task to get national retailers to look at OKC to begin with and when they do, they are certainly going to look in areas where the demographics are most favorable i.e. population density and concentrated income. That just isn't going to be the south side especially north of I-240. All of that said, there are some great neighborhoods in Moore and SW OKC within the Moore school district. The growth down there reminds me a lot of west Edmond. As Pete said, there are things the south side has that make the north side jealous, most specifically the Warren Theater. No north side theater comes anywhere close. If there is a population boom down there to really bring up density, then its possible more retailers and restaurants may consider entering the market in the Moore/Norman/SW OKC area. The corridor along I-35 from the Warren area down south of 19th St in Moore seems to be very hot right now.

[Urbanized]

This has nothing to do with north side vs. south side. This is a very specific part of the city. These businesses ALSO are not locating near northwest, or far northwest, or downtown, or in Edmond, or Nichols Hills, or Mid-Del, or Yukon, or Mustang, or Norman... ...you get the drift. You're talking about a few miles of a single road that gets most of these types of developments. So don't make the mistake of looking at it like the south side is doing something wrong or that it is north vs. south.

Most of the places you cite are either going to be the only location in the metro or at the very least the first in the metro. As such, their location folks are going to be looking for one thing only; the absolute best location, with the most proven sales in the area, etc., etc.. They are looking for the absolute best chance of success based on the known variables. They are NOT looking to experiment, or to be the canary in the coal mine. They aren't looking to take chances, to pioneer an area, or to improve the retail mix of a particular part of town.

They are ONLY motivated to find the place where they are most likely to make the most money. In the OKC metro - according to their research - that is obviously the area around a roughly three mile stretch of Memorial Road.

[Pete]

^

Exactly right.

And as we've discussed many times before, these chains are complete sheep. They typically just follow where others have already had success.

[SouthsideSooner]

The wheels are already in motion to address this. 3 miles of prime 1-44 frontage and 1000 acres of undeveloped airport trust property...

Greater Oklahoma City Economic Development - Land At Will - 2,000 Acres of Prime Developable Land

[Clown puncher]

The bigger problem is OKC is missing out on the taxes , south siders end up shopping and eating in Moore and Norman..... Not NW OKC

[bchris02]

The bigger problem is OKC is missing out on the taxes , south siders end up shopping and eating in Moore and Norman..... Not NW OKC

Good point. The bad thing about the south side currently is the fast-growing area is in the Moore school district and the retail corridor that serves that area is in Moore proper and not OKC (though this is definitely good for the city of Moore). The I-240 corridor is just a tad too far north to be viable for major retail development today.

[SouthSide]

I just wish South OKC could attract a full service bookstore, a couple more non chain restaurants, and a decent department store. I can live without the traffic of the Memorial corridor.

[adaniel]

Most of the places you cite are either going to be the only location in the metro or at the very least the first in the metro. As such, their location folks are going to be looking for one thing only; the absolute best location, with the most proven sales in the area, etc., etc.. They are looking for the absolute best chance of success based on the known variables. They are NOT looking to experiment, or to be the canary in the coal mine. They aren't looking to take chances, to pioneer an area, or to improve the retail mix of a particular part of town.

They are ONLY motivated to find the place where they are most likely to make the most money. In the OKC metro - according to their research - that is obviously the area around a roughly three mile stretch of Memorial Road.

Its really as simple as this. Memorial Rd (along with the Penn Square area) are the most established retail areas in the region. And they are as such because they are both near the largest concentration of moneyed households. Yes I know, "but what about 73170 blah blah blah?" As it stands now, that area has a large # of well off households but it doesn't have the "track record" of successful retail or commercial development compared to Memorial or Penn Square...that could always change but for now this is the truth.

And I'm not so sure the north/south divide is as prominent as it was in the past. Off the top of my head...Raising Canes, Del Taco, Warren Theatre, Five Guys, Chuys, BJs and many others opened their first Central Oklahoma locations in either Moore or Norman. I also tend to agree with Pete that the hottest area in town at least for restaurants is downtown/midtown and surrounding districts. Pappadeaux was the first announcement for the Memorial in some time.

[bchris02]

I also tend to agree with Pete that the hottest area in town at least for restaurants is downtown/midtown and surrounding districts. Pappadeaux was the first announcement for the Memorial in some time.

Strongly disagree with this, at least for chain establishments. I can't think of a single chain restaurant new to the market that has decided on downtown for its first location in recent times. Corner Bakery also was originally looking downtown but ended up with the "not enough rooftops" objection and decided on Memorial. Local restaurateurs like Good Egg Group and Hal Smith, who know the market, have been filling the niche downtown. That is what OKC wants and needs. Let the big chains go to the suburbs.

[bradh]

that Portland development east of the airport between it and I-44 will be huge for south OKC

[Jesseda]

I believe moore is planning on building a bridge for S.W 34th street, I bet when that thing gets built there will be major development from 19th all the way to Indian hills. I know a big apartment complex is in the works already and HEYDAY and Andy alligator is expanding as well

[Rover]

Pappadeaux was the first announcement for the Memorial in some time.

I guess if you limit it to strictly ON Memorial, you are correct. But there have been all kinds of restaurants built in the Memorial corridor, many being the local groups....Tuckers, S&B, Cool Greens, Seven, Charlestons, Hideaway, Interurban, Saturn Grille, Mahogany, Wes Welker's, NuNu's, Nhinja, Jimmy's Egg, Rococo, Tommy's and any number of other locals etc. BTW, there have been plenty of new other nationals there pretty consistently adding new ones....Corner Bakery, 5 Guys, Rudy's, etc. along with many, many others. This constant thinking that it is EITHER Memorial or downtown is silly. Both can be developed and will be developed according to real and perceived viability. Downtown, southside, etc. will all get built up eventually.

[Spartan]

Why does OKC still aspire to build as many strip malls as possible? In 2014?

[Plutonic Panda]

Why does OKC still aspire to build as many strip malls as possible? In 2014?

It isn't just OKC. This urban fantasy world that suburbs are dying along with their development styles just isn't happening.

I know people who live in London who have said suburban style centers are being built in its suburbs, so OKC is just doing what most other cities are doing, growing.

[bombermwc]

Also note how many "new" businesses that went in on Memorial have failed. It does serve as a test ground, and they are not always successful.

[Rover]

As a percentage of total restaurants, the success rate in Memorial area is pretty good. Better than normal. However, there have been some bad restaurants that did and should have failed. If nothing is failing, then the community standards are just too low.

[Urbanized]

Honestly, there are few bad PLACES to operate a business in the metro, other than places where there are few people. Failures are usually more attributable to bad fit/concept/plan/capitalization/management. Places that have failed on Memorial have usually just missed the market, which is actually no small feat considering the amount of consumer money that flows through that corridor, AND the broad spectrum of consumer tastes that attracts, having success on the Memorial corridor is like hitting the broad side of a barn with the doors open. It is why so many businesses flock there, first.

If a business fails there it is usually indicative of a more wide-ranging problem within the parent company, and I think if you will examine the failures over the years that theory will be upheld.

[gopokes88]

The bigger problem is OKC is missing out on the taxes , south siders end up shopping and eating in Moore and Norman..... Not NW OKC

Which is offset by people from Norman and Moore going to Penn Square, Quail Springs, Thunder Games, Bricktown, concerts, etc.

[Spartan]

It isn't just OKC. This urban fantasy world that suburbs are dying along with their development styles just isn't happening.

I know people who live in London who have said suburban style centers are being built in its suburbs, so OKC is just doing what most other cities are doing, growing.

No, if you believe this you just don't see much real estate around the country. There's a natural evolution in real estate that hasn't come to OKC yet. Virtually every big OH/PA/IN suburban development is new urbanism these days. I'm not even talking about places that gave rise to new urbanism like growing East Coast states MD/VA/NJ etc.

[bchris02]

No, if you believe this you just don't see much real estate around the country. There's a natural evolution in real estate that hasn't come to OKC yet. Virtually every OH/PA/IN suburban development is new urbanism these days. I'm not even talking about places that have rise to new urbanism like growing East Coast states MD/VA/NJ etc.

Likewise in Charlotte. PluPan is right that suburbs aren't dying. "Strip malls" and suburbs are still being built, but they are not the same style as what is being built in OKC.

[Spartan]

I worked on a deal in NE Ohio where we took a strip mall, retained the retail arcade, and put senior housing above it using piers (had to redistribute structural load). It was really cheap and a really fascinating example of the rising trend "suburban retrofits."

Suburbs aren't going anywhere...as long as you can adapt and think outside the (big) box. OKC's severe dearth of creativity is actually just going to hurt the suburbs even more (probably downtown's gain - to the point that OKC will have extreme concentrated poverty and wealth unlike right now). The point is OKC has far too much underperforming real estate to really look around and realize its civic aspirations outside of downtown. We use the excuse that everywhere has its dumps, but the reality is far too much of OKC is trending that way.

It's not urban vs. suburban. It's just about having nice neighborhoods and community centers. OKC really does deserve to have that. Edmond is really not doing a bad job on this front.

[bchris02]

Suburbs aren't going anywhere...as long as you can adapt and think outside the (big) box. OKC's severe dearth of creativity is actually just going to hurt the suburbs even more (probably downtown's gain - to the point that OKC will have extreme concentrated poverty and wealth unlike right now). The point is OKC has far too much underperforming real estate to really look around and realize its civic aspirations outside of downtown. We use the excuse that everywhere has its dumps, but the reality is far too much of OKC is trending that way.

I think a prime example of that is what is happening in the part of suburban NW OKC that's in the Putnam City school district. That area should not be deteriorating as fast as it is. On the southside, you could say the same thing about the I-240 retail corridor. That ship has probably already sailed but had their been some forward thinking a decade ago its decline could have been minimized.

[bombermwc]

I always feel like schools are the #1 factor in keeping an area alive. See it as a chicken/egg moment of which happens first, the school or the neighborhood declining. When people go, businesses go, as taxes go the quality of the school goes. OCPS did the easy part in correcting horrible facilities, but a new building doesn't change the economics of a district, it just cuts maintenance/utility costs. I can guarantee you right now that if OCPS consistently still gave their student base a good education, more people would have stayed. Why wouldn't you want to live closer in and have closer access to everything? I think people generally prefer to live closer and not have to drive that extra 20 minutes, but the impact that has on their children affects that decision. If they stay in, can they afford a private school (and there are plenty for this very reason)?

I'm not saying that all students come out not getting a good education, and there's a HUGE socio-economical discussion on schools/parents/etc that's all part of this. But keep in mind that the OCPS were some of the largest in the state back to the 70s. The burbs were just a shadow of their current self at that time. And even some of the major burbs of that time have already started to decline in favor of the next town out (as mentioned, PC is an example of what was a powerhouse and is now pretty bad off). School populations are almost half of what they were at their height. That kind of loss of population is a killer to an area. Especially when a lot of the population that stays is older and then dies off...sometimes not to be refilled.