Oklahoma liquor laws

[bchris02]

Indiana cold beer battle.

Cold beer battle heats up in Indiana - Jul. 17, 2014

I would love it if Oklahoma had laws like Indiana's current laws. At least they can sell cold beer in liquor stores. They trust their citizens enough that they won't buy it and chug it in the car before driving in front of a liquor store, or they at least know if they are going to do that, the beer being warm isn't going to make a difference. Somebody said Indiana needs to get out of the dark ages in the article. If Indiana is in the dark ages, Oklahoma is in the stone age.

[bchris02]

I'll be surprised if Oklahoma's overall liquor laws are changed within our lifetimes given how difficult it is to get a proposal on the ballot in this state and how most of the population is generally apathetic about the current laws. In 2050, Oklahoma grocery stores will likely still be selling 3.2 beer and you'll likely still have to go to a liquor store for anything with higher alcohol content. However, there are three things I would really like to see and it would drastically make life easier for the consumer in this state without changing the laws too much. Colorado is one of the best beer states in the nation yet their laws, while more liberal than Oklahoma's, aren't much so.

-Brewpubs can sell high-point beer on site
-Liquor stores can sell cold beer
-Liquor stores can stay open to at least 10PM and on Sunday

Doing these things alone would make the current laws much easier to deal with. Question is, what are the chances of those things ever happening? Can they be done without a constitutional amendment?

[gopokes88]

I'll be surprised if Oklahoma's overall liquor laws are changed within our lifetimes given how difficult it is to get a proposal on the ballot in this state and how most of the population is generally apathetic about the current laws. In 2050, Oklahoma grocery stores will likely still be selling 3.2 beer and you'll likely still have to go to a liquor store for anything with higher alcohol content. However, there are three things I would really like to see and it would drastically make life easier for the consumer in this state without changing the laws too much. Colorado is one of the best beer states in the nation yet their laws, while more liberal than Oklahoma's, aren't much so.

-Brewpubs can sell high-point beer on site
-Liquor stores can sell cold beer
-Liquor stores can stay open to at least 10PM and on Sunday

Doing these things alone would make the current laws much easier to deal with. Question is, what are the chances of those things ever happening? Can they be done without a constitutional amendment?

80% chance
25% chance
45% chance

Brewpubs have been pushing to get this done and eventually will be able to.
Most liquor stores can't hold a big cooler and its a good chunk of overhead and cost. So they aren't exactly screaming for it. Main problem would be Bud/Miller/Coors, they would fight like hell against it, as it eliminates one of the advantages they have selling 3.2 beer.
Selling on Sundays is slightly less then 50/50. MADD and the Baptists won't like it, but those who are powerful in the liquor industry would. I just don't know if the political will power is there.

[gopokes88]

I'll be surprised if Oklahoma's overall liquor laws are changed within our lifetimes given how difficult it is to get a proposal on the ballot in this state and how most of the population is generally apathetic about the current laws. In 2050, Oklahoma grocery stores will likely still be selling 3.2 beer and you'll likely still have to go to a liquor store for anything with higher alcohol content. However, there are three things I would really like to see and it would drastically make life easier for the consumer in this state without changing the laws too much. Colorado is one of the best beer states in the nation yet their laws, while more liberal than Oklahoma's, aren't much so.

-Brewpubs can sell high-point beer on site
-Liquor stores can sell cold beer
-Liquor stores can stay open to at least 10PM and on Sunday

Doing these things alone would make the current laws much easier to deal with. Question is, what are the chances of those things ever happening? Can they be done without a constitutional amendment?

80% chance
25% chance
45% chance

Brewpubs have been pushing to get this done and eventually will be able to.

Most liquor stores can't hold a big cooler and its a good chunk of overhead and cost. So they aren't exactly screaming for it. Main problem would be Bud/Miller/Coors, they would fight like hell against it, as it eliminates one of the advantages they have selling 3.2 beer.

Selling on Sundays is slightly less then 50/50. MADD and the Baptists won't like it, but those who are powerful in the liquor industry would. I just don't know if the political will power is there.

[bchris02]

Brewpubs have been pushing to get this done and eventually will be able to.

Most liquor stores can't hold a big cooler and its a good chunk of overhead and cost. So they aren't exactly screaming for it. Main problem would be Bud/Miller/Coors, they would fight like hell against it, as it eliminates one of the advantages they have selling 3.2 beer.

Selling on Sundays is slightly less then 50/50. MADD and the Baptists won't like it, but those who are powerful in the liquor industry would. I just don't know if the political will power is there.

Hopefully brewpubs can get this done sooner rather than later. The market is ripe and it would be great to see Oklahoma have the kind of brewpub explosion places like Colorado are experiencing. As for cold beer, with Budweiser entering the Oklahoma market with strong versions of their products, wouldn't there be less opposition from them to selling it cold? My guess is most opposition would come from religious and MADD groups who would be against anything that would make purchasing alcohol easier on the consumer. Likewise with late-night and Sunday sales.

[gopokes88]

Hopefully brewpubs can get this done sooner rather than later. The market is ripe and it would be great to see Oklahoma have the kind of brewpub explosion places like Colorado are experiencing. As for cold beer, with Budweiser entering the Oklahoma market with strong versions of their products, wouldn't there be less opposition from them to selling it cold? My guess is most opposition would come from religious and MADD groups who would be against anything that would make purchasing alcohol easier on the consumer. Likewise with late-night and Sunday sales.

I think Roughtail is brewing some 3.2 for their tasting room. So some are adjusting for now.

Why give away any market advantage that they have? They can sell warm strong beer and cold 3.2 beer. Selling warm strong beer isn't going to hurt 3.2 sales, but selling cold strong beer would. There would be some that go from cold 3.2 to cold strong bud but they'd still lose some business from it.

The laws are what they are here. Liquor laws are very difficult to change, not just here, everywhere. We'll continue to see some tweaks but overall the setup will endure.

I don't know when the official start dates but being able to doggy bag wine has been a nice change. I hear they are getting close to allowing bottle service in clubs. That will be helpful as well.

[Soonerman]

How about letting the free market decide.

[gopokes88]

How about letting the free market decide.

You can't. It's a product that kills people. All products that kill people have high regulation.

[bille]

Using religion is just a convenient front to argue these type of topics but don't think for a second it's not deeply rooted in money.**

What needs to happen is a funded grassroots effort to show those that are unaware how the craft beer explosion going on everywhere isn't happening here because of our laws.* There'll be much less talk about religion in these discussions when the real potential of income/jobs are discussed I think.

So this grassroots thing is happening, check it out at*localok.org*and also on Facebook.* They are modeling the effort after a couple of others that have been successful in getting laws relaxed/changed in other states.* If you want in on an organized effort and really want to see changes happening, follow and support these guys!

Most liquor stores can't hold a big cooler and its a good chunk of overhead and cost. So they aren't exactly screaming for it. Main problem would be Bud/Miller/Coors, they would fight like hell against it, as it eliminates one of the advantages they have selling 3.2 beer.*

The liquor store owners that are unwilling to add in refrigeration or they could care less either way are the jackasses in the business to solely make money and I'd rather not give them any of mine.* If they cared enough to understand or at least do some research on the detrimental effects of storing product at room temp over refrigeration has in terms of staling they'd want at least a little refrigeration, specifically for some of their beer.**

I think Roughtail is brewing some 3.2 for their tasting room. So some are adjusting for now.

Roughtail Brewing, COOP, Prairie Artisan Ales (Tulsa), and Mustang Brewing all have 3.2 beers in the past or are currently selling.* If you've ever been out to an open event (like H&8th) the COOP trailer is there selling their 3.2 beer.* In fact, COOP is actually about to start canning all three of those beers very soon.* They'll be available in grocers just like Mustang did with their Session 33, 3.2 beer they had out last year.* With 3.2 beer the brewer can self-distribute as well as sell directly at the brewery, not to mention the laws regulating the sales of 3.2 alcohol is way less regulated...which is what the real slap in the face is for me.* To lay a definition (an absurd prohibition era definition at that) out there defining alcohol as "non-intoxicating" <now called "low-point"> or "intoxicating" is so dumb.* I really believe that if those guys were familiar with how/what/why of those terms they'd agree it's far past time to update, change, or do away with laws that reference alcohol content, at least anything on the lower "low-point" end.

At any rate more of the breweries are working 3.2 beers into their lineup.* This allows them to justify pushing forward with tasting rooms where they can serve pints of beer and sell growlers directly with hopes that one day soon it won't be restricted.**

[jerrywall]

What's wrong with folks in business, investing their money, solely to make money. I thought that's why anyone got into business. Did you think they invested 100k+ and the time it requires to get licensed out of charity?

BTW - Good beer doesn't need refrigeration. Good beer improves with storage and age. Only crap beer water needs "born on dates" and refrigeration.

[bille]

Sorry, duplicate post. Tap a talk isn't working for me, I can't access via my works fire wall and can't figure out how to delete from the mobile version...

[bchris02]

If it was about the money, liquor stores should want refrigeration because that would negate advantage the grocers have being able to sell cold 3.2 beer. They would also widen their selection as numerous brewers will not sell in Oklahoma due to not being able to store refrigerated. I don't buy for one moment that liquor stores are responsible for the law requiring beer being sold at room temperature. That blame falls directly with MADD groups and Baptists who think they are preventing people from chugging beer in liquor store parking lots.

[bille]

What's wrong with folks in business, investing their money, solely to make money. I thought that's why anyone got into business. Did you think they invested 100k+ and the time it requires to get licensed out of charity?

BTW - Good beer doesn't need refrigeration. Good beer improves with storage and age. Only crap beer water needs "born on dates" and refrigeration.

Not caring about their product enough to do the research and realize that YES, beer should be refrigerated. No, not all of it has to be but premature staling is happening to all off it, certain beers will develop nicely by storage at room temp but for many beers (especially IPA, the most popular of craft beer styles) it's a killer. Don't take my word, do your own research, ask any brewer they'll tell you the same.

[jerrywall]

That's amazing, because even in states with refrigeration, beer is shipped, warehoused, and stored warm before being placed in refrigeration. Someone should tell someone about that.

And I only owned a liquor store, and am active in the local craft beer/home brew groups. I know nothing.

Light affects beer, but not temp (unless we're talking extreme warmth). However, cheep lagers such as Bud will be affected by temps, but crap turned to crap is still crap.

Now long term (as in, after you bought it) refrigeration can be good for preserving IPA's (especially west coast IPAs). But the amount of time product is on the shelves at liquor stores shouldn't be a factor (unless turnover is SUPER slow, which is a whole other issue).

My big complaint though is the implication that those retailers who don't fight for refrigeration don't care or don't deserve your business. Liquor retail is an extremely small profit industry, and most shops are just focused on staying in business. I know the liquor retail association is all for allowing cold beer, and I know retailers who've tried tricks (going as far as keeping their shops at 50 degrees - something ABLE said "no" to), so folks do care. But they can't invest much effort, money, or time into it.

[bille]

That's amazing, because even in states with refrigeration, beer is shipped, warehoused, and stored warm before being placed in refrigeration.* Someone should tell someone about that.

And I only owned a liquor store, and am active in the local craft beer/home brew groups.* I know nothing.

Light affects beer, but not temp (unless we're talking extreme warmth).* However, cheep lagers such as Bud will be affected by temps, but crap turned to crap is still crap.

Now long term (as in, after you bought it) refrigeration can be good for preserving IPA's (especially west coast IPAs).* But the amount of time product is on the shelves at liquor stores shouldn't be a factor (unless turnover is SUPER slow, which is a whole other issue).

That is true, for most beer anyway.* There's some craft that is stored/shipped refrigerated, that stuff isn't cheap and it's hard, nearly impossible for a brewer to get an agreement that their beer is kept cold once it reaches a distributor...it's hard enough for most of these guys to get their beer on the shelf as it is.* Regardless, just because it isn't done doesn't mean they wouldn't prefer it if/when possible.**

I'm familiar with you owning a liquor store; I remember that from a previous post (perhaps in this thread) and I respect and envy the amount of knowledge you have in terms of dealing in the business.* That said, I'm also very much involved in the craft beer and homebrew communities, I am a homebrewer, and I'm here to tell you that staling is factual regardless how few people actually know or understand it.* Light, oxygen, and temperature all have effects on beer, most of it is negative.* You can certainly do your own experiments but here's something to ponder: for every 10°C (18°F) staling occurs twice as fast.* Considering that, a beer kept at room temperature will stale roughly four times as fast as one kept refrigerated (~35F).*

Categorizing Bud as "cheap" has nothing to do with its susceptibility to temperature.* I'd also argue against calling it cheap but that's another topic altogether.* I will agree that many of those macro brewed light lagers are pasteurized and for those beers that are, the freshest you can get it the better as all of their staling/aging properties will not affect the beer in a positive way.

[onthestrip]

You can't. It's a product that kills people. All products that kill people have high regulation.

The problem is the current regulations do nothing to save lives. Adding refrigeration in liquor stores, letting them open on sundays, allowing wine in grocery stores...these things wont kill more people. The current regs exist for establishment protection and because no one seems to care enough to make change happen.

Would be nice if one or two legislators made this a big issue and pushed for it. Its not like they are tackling more important issues all the time.

[jerrywall]

The problem is the current regulations do nothing to save lives. Adding refrigeration in liquor stores, letting them open on sundays, allowing wine in grocery stores...these things wont kill more people. The current regs exist for establishment protection and because no one seems to care enough to make change happen.

I agree with you except the grocery stores part. There have been multiple studies that show a direct correlation between increased availability and drunk drive and alcohol abuse.

Now whether these type of restrictions/limitations are the best way to affect those issues, is a whole other matter.

[jerrywall]

That is true, for most beer anyway.* There's some craft that is stored/shipped refrigerated, that stuff isn't cheap and it's hard, nearly impossible for a brewer to get an agreement that their beer is kept cold once it reaches a distributor...it's hard enough for most of these guys to get their beer on the shelf as it is.* Regardless, just because it isn't done doesn't mean they wouldn't prefer it if/when possible.**

I'm familiar with you owning a liquor store; I remember that from a previous post (perhaps in this thread) and I respect and envy the amount of knowledge you have in terms of dealing in the business.* That said, I'm also very much involved in the craft beer and homebrew communities, I am a homebrewer, and I'm here to tell you that staling is factual regardless how few people actually know or understand it.* Light, oxygen, and temperature all have effects on beer, most of it is negative.* You can certainly do your own experiments but here's something to ponder: for every 10°C (18°F) staling occurs twice as fast.* Considering that, a beer kept at room temperature will stale roughly four times as fast as one kept refrigerated (~35F).*

Categorizing Bud as "cheap" has nothing to do with its susceptibility to temperature.* I'd also argue against calling it cheap but that's another topic altogether.* I will agree that many of those macro brewed light lagers are pasteurized and for those beers that are, the freshest you can get it the better as all of their staling/aging properties will not affect the beer in a positive way.

Like I said, temp can be important for preserving long term as it can affect the length of time for staling. However, at the retail level, beer is typically not stored long enough for this to be a concern. Even at the grocery level (or in states with refrigeration allowed in liquor stores) refrigeration is a matter of convenience to the customer, not storage. Most places still store their back stock at room temperature, and merely shelf in the cold displays as available.

[bluedogok]

Travis County (Austin area) has no beer/wine sales in grocery stores on Sunday before noon and liquor stores are not open on Sunday, even Spec's. Every state has some screwy liquor laws that make no sense.

[bchris02]

If the idea that drunk driving and alcoholism increases with availability was true, as proponents of these laws say, then Oklahoma should have the lowest rate of drunk driving and alcoholism in the nation, followed closely by Utah and Pennsylvania. Is that the case?

And sorry bluedogok, while I agree that every state has weird laws, there is no comparison between Texas' laws in Travis County and Oklahoma's system when it comes to impact on the consumer.

[Jersey Boss]

The 3 Best and 3 Worst States in America for Drinking | TIME.com

The Worst

1. Utah: Many of the restrictive drinking laws around the country derive from a religious skepticism of alcohol, and Utah’s strong religious culture has helped motivate the passage of sundry drinking restrictions. Only beer with less than 3.2% alcohol by weight can be sold in grocery and convenience stores or on tap. Like a strong drink? You’re out of luck in Utah, as cocktails can only contain 1.5 ounces of a primary liquor, while alcohol can’t be purchased in restaurants without food. Oh yeah, keggers are out of the question too, as keg sales are prohibited.

2. Massachusetts: Massachusetts is well-known for its many colleges and universities, but the state’s laws seemed aimed at preventing these students from having very much fun. Out of state drivers licenses aren’t acceptable proofs of age under state law, meaning that out-of-state visitors can get turned away from bars. Bars are also prohibited from allowing drinking games on their premises, and perhaps worst of all, happy hours are banned state wide.

3. Pennsylvania: If you’re not from the Keystone State, stocking up for a party can be a pretty confusing task. All wine and liquor sold in the state are done so by state-owned liquor stores, which don’t sell beer at all. If you want a six-pack of brews, you would think that a “beer distributor” would be the place to go, except that those establishments are only allowed to sell cases. For anything less you have to go to a restaurant with a liquor control board-issued license. Got all that? Me neither. Who needs a drink?

I believe the outcry over our liquor laws/regs is vastly overblown. Other than not being able to get New Belgium products, the laws on the books are not that much of a burden. I also find the prices at Byrons to be cheaper than the same product at a Texas Wal Mart.

[bille]

Travis County (Austin area) has no beer/wine sales in grocery stores on Sunday before noon and liquor stores are not open on Sunday, even Spec's. Every state has some screwy liquor laws that make no sense.

Isn't that "curfew" spread throughout all of Texas?* To my knowledge it runs 12hours starting at midnight on Sunday and running until noon.* Sure it's more drastic than OK's curfew but I'd argue for relaxing/changing several other aspects of the law there (or here) before I'd worry about the curfew.**

If the idea that drunk driving and alcoholism increases with availability was true, as proponents of these laws say, then Oklahoma should have the lowest rate of drunk driving and alcoholism in the nation, followed closely by Utah and Pennsylvania.* Is that the case?

And sorry bluedogok, while I agree that every state has weird laws, there is no comparison between Texas' laws in Travis County and Oklahoma's system when it comes to impact on the consumer.

Agreed.* While Texas certainly has some dumb laws pertaining to alcohol (all states do!) they have been actively changing them and I'm sure they'll continue to do so through their "Open the Taps" movement.* Other states have similar programs like "Free the Hops" in Alabama which has made recent progress as well and believe me, if you know anything about changing laws related to booze in that state you know it's not easy.* Alabama representatives are something else...look up Alvin Holmes.

My point is our state's current restrictions are directly affecting growth within the market, supporting jobs, etc.* Moreover, if other states can make changes so can we but it's going to take time, patience, a lot of support and money.

[bille]

The 3 Best and 3 Worst States in America for Drinking | TIME.com

The Worst

1. Utah: Many of the restrictive drinking laws around the country derive from a religious skepticism of alcohol, and Utah’s strong religious culture has helped motivate the passage of sundry drinking restrictions. Only beer with less than 3.2% alcohol by weight can be sold in grocery and convenience stores or on tap. Like a strong drink? You’re out of luck in Utah, as cocktails can only contain 1.5 ounces of a primary liquor, while alcohol can’t be purchased in restaurants without food. Oh yeah, keggers are out of the question too, as keg sales are prohibited.

2. Massachusetts: Massachusetts is well-known for its many colleges and universities, but the state’s laws seemed aimed at preventing these students from having very much fun. Out of state drivers licenses aren’t acceptable proofs of age under state law, meaning that out-of-state visitors can get turned away from bars. Bars are also prohibited from allowing drinking games on their premises, and perhaps worst of all, happy hours are banned state wide.

3. Pennsylvania: If you’re not from the Keystone State, stocking up for a party can be a pretty confusing task. All wine and liquor sold in the state are done so by state-owned liquor stores, which don’t sell beer at all. If you want a six-pack of brews, you would think that a “beer distributor” would be the place to go, except that those establishments are only allowed to sell cases. For anything less you have to go to a restaurant with a liquor control board-issued license. Got all that? Me neither. Who needs a drink?

I believe the outcry over our liquor laws/regs is vastly overblown. Other than not being able to get New Belgium products, the laws on the books are not that much of a burden. I also find the prices at Byrons to be cheaper than the same product at a Texas Wal Mart.

Vastly overblown? I disagree sir! Just because we didn't hit the top three doesn't mean were doing OK. There's no parity between wine and beer in our state, that alone makes very little sense. Consider this, you can go to a winery in OK and sample as much as you want and then buy wine directly from them. If you go to a brewery you are limited to 12oz worth of samples (>3.2abw) and if you find anything you like you're going to have to hit up a liquor store. Not only can wineries self-distribute as of just recently they can now ship direct to customers.

That's merely scraping the surface but fixing those gross variances would be a huge help to our local craft breweries.

[Jeepnokc]

Quote Originally Posted by onthestrip View Post

The problem is the current regulations do nothing to save lives. Adding refrigeration in liquor stores, letting them open on sundays, allowing wine in grocery stores...these things wont kill more people. The current regs exist for establishment protection and because no one seems to care enough to make change happen.

I agree with you except the grocery stores part. There have been multiple studies that show a direct correlation between increased availability and drunk drive and alcohol abuse.

Now whether these type of restrictions/limitations are the best way to affect those issues, is a whole other matter.

If (and that is a big if as you can make studies say what you want them to just by changing parameters) availability increases drunk driving then you should also be against liquor stores being open on Sunday as that also is increasing availability. Of course, being open on Sunday helps a liquor store and selling wine in a grocery store hurts a liquor store.

[jerrywall]

If (and that is a big if as you can make studies say what you want them to just by changing parameters) availability increases drunk driving then you should also be against liquor stores being open on Sunday as that also is increasing availability. Of course, being open on Sunday helps a liquor store and selling wine in a grocery store hurts a liquor store.

I would agree that opening on Sunday would also increase availability. As for making studies say what I want... Well, there are quite a few studies out there and they all agree that increased availability (and Sunday sales was one of the criteria) has a direct correlation to alcohol abuse and drunk driving. You can feel free to dismiss them, much like folks dismiss climate change reports.