Streetcar

[JohnH_in_OKC]

deleted

[JohnH_in_OKC]

What's the big deal with wires? Personally, I like them. My son, an engineer, said one should never buy the first model of any new technology. And I agree - especially considering we're talking about a hundred million dollars of taxpayer money. I don't want something that looks snappy and doesn't work. Not to mention the turnkey issues that have already been mentioned.

I lived in Germany for 3 years (40+ years ago). Cantenary lines for their streetcars & buses were always huge eyesores. Anytime a city can remove its overhead wiring (cable, phone, cantenary or electrical), and if affordable, that city is better off & a lot more aesthetically pleasing.

What I have been proposing is we just add the requirement of being able to use induction power with all the other cantenary/hybrid/batteries/flywheel energy storage capabilities built into most modern streetcars.

The only problem is that, to my knowledge, only one company (Bombardier) makes a streetcar with all of these features including induction. So that prevents us from competitive bidding. But the honest truth is I believe induction power is the future of all transportation (car, transit, truck & rail). To overlook it now is very short sided. Look at London which is starting to test its buses with induction charging. I can't imagine induction not being more practical & economical in the long run for our transportation needs, but if it didn't work, we'd still be able to operate our streetcars conventionally with (less efficient) cantenary overhead wiring.

The sooner OKC and our nation begins powering our transportation using induction, the sooner we start saving huge amounts of wasted energy & saving our atmosphere from a lot of excess hydrocarbon. This is my opinion & also the opinion of a lot of engineers throughout the world. (I was trained as a city planner in graduate school. I am not an engineer.)

[ljbab728]

I lived in Germany for 3 years (40+ years ago). Cantenary lines for their streetcars & buses were always huge eyesores. Anytime a city can remove its overhead wiring (cable, phone or electrical), and if affordable, that city is better off & a lot more aesthetically pleasing.

What I have been proposing is we just add the requirement of being able to use induction power with all the other cantenary/hybrid/batteries/flywheel energy storage capabilities built into most modern streetcars.

The only problem is that, to my knowledge, only one company (Bombardier) makes a streetcar with all of these features. So that prevents us from competitive bidding. But the honest truth is I believe induction power is the future of all transportation (car, transit, truck & rail). To overlook it now is very short sided.
Look at London which is starting testing its buses with induction charging. I can't imagine induction not being more economical in the long run for our transportation needs, but if it didn't work, we'd still be able to operate the streetcar conventionally with cantenary (overhead) wiring.

The sooner OKC and our nation gets our transportation powered using induction, the sooner we start saving huge amounts of wasted energy & saving our atmosphere from a lot of excess hydrocarbon. This is my opinion & also the opinion of a lot of engineers throughout the world. (I was trained as a city planner in graduate school. I am not an engineer.)

Obviously there are those who disagree with you even with your training. The fact that London is looking at this has absolutely nothing to do with the realities of what we can or should do in OKC.

[JohnH_in_OKC]

Obviously there are those who disagree with you even with your training. The fact that London is looking at this has absolutely nothing to do with the realities of what we can or should do in OKC.

If your thought process worked like mine, you'd see a direct correlation. I am not trying to insult you. My brain does work differently than most people's. I remeber one of my employees told me: "you think differently than anyone I've ever met" (I owned a computer business for 13 years). I realize my opinions can easily get irritating - my family disagrees with many of my ideas and my sister has asked me not to discuss politics around her family.

But I am just trying to expand everyone's knowledge about the potential and inherent value of adding inductive charging capabilities to our streetcars in the best way that I can.

[Plutonic Panda]

My son, an engineer, said one should never buy the first model of any new technology.

So let me ask you something, how do things get tested on large scales then? Everything has to start somewhere.

[catch22]

Let's not let OKC be the test bed. If it works cool. If it doesn't we just bought a system that doesn't work with the only rail transit money we have.

[ljbab728]

If your thought process worked like mine, you'd see a direct correlation. I am not trying to insult you. My brain does work differently than most people's. I remeber one of my employees told me: "you think differently than anyone I've ever met" (I owned a computer business for 13 years). I realize my opinions can easily get irritating - my family disagrees with many of my ideas and my sister has asked me not to discuss politics around her family.

But I am just trying to expand everyone's knowledge about the potential and inherent value of adding inductive charging capabilities to our streetcars in the best way that I can.

I do think you have good intentions but sometimes that isn't enough.

[ljbab728]

So let me ask you something, how do things get tested on large scales then? Everything has to start somewhere.

Yes, and it has to start somewhere that they have enough money to experiment. OKC doesn't.

[soonerguru]

Next week, I'll try contacting both Republican and Democrat House & Senate leaders as well as my own Senator & House Representative to see what they think. Remember, we citizens have already passed MAPS 3 & the intent of our tax on ourselves was to complete all the MAPS 3 projects that were proposed. I doubt any Republican or Democrat would want to anger the citizenry of Oklahoma City. I think everyone in the state is proud of OKC & what a shining example we are setting for the rest of the nation. -- John

Please don't. Not if you want a streetcar. The morons in Tennessee's legislature decided to kill Nashville's transit system. You are meddling unnecessarily. Please trust the people who have navigated political waters no one else has in the history of OKC. This is a sensitive issue and this is the kind of dumb move that could really screw things up.

[Laramie]

Some Legislators don't think; they react...

"Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.

[David]

Please don't. Not if you want a streetcar. The morons in Tennessee's legislature decided to kill Nashville's transit system. You are meddling unnecessarily. Please trust the people who have navigated political waters no one else has in the history of OKC. This is a sensitive issue and this is the kind of dumb move that could really screw things up.

This, oh so this. Please, please, please leave them out of it.

[hoya]

"Next week, I'll try contacting both Republican and Democrat House & Senate leaders as well as my own Senator & House Representative to see what they think. Remember, we citizens have already passed MAPS 3 & the intent of our tax on ourselves was to complete all the MAPS 3 projects that were proposed. I doubt any Republican or Democrat would want to anger the citizenry of Oklahoma City. I think everyone in the state is proud of OKC & what a shining example we are setting for the rest of the nation. -- John"

Please don't. Not if you want a streetcar. The morons in Tennessee's legislature decided to kill Nashville's transit system. You are meddling unnecessarily. Please trust the people who have navigated political waters no one else has in the history of OKC. This is a sensitive issue and this is the kind of dumb move that could really screw things up.

Translation: "I'm not getting what I want so I'm gonna go screw things up for everyone."

[DoctorTaco]

Next week, I'll try contacting both Republican and Democrat House & Senate leaders as well as my own Senator & House Representative to see what they think. Remember, we citizens have already passed MAPS 3 & the intent of our tax on ourselves was to complete all the MAPS 3 projects that were proposed. I doubt any Republican or Democrat would want to anger the citizenry of Oklahoma City. I think everyone in the state is proud of OKC & what a shining example we are setting for the rest of the nation. -- John

You forget how the legislature completely and without a moment's hesitations gave OKC the middle finger about the abandoned buildings ordinance.

[DoctorTaco]

Please don't. Not if you want a streetcar. The morons in Tennessee's legislature decided to kill Nashville's transit system. You are meddling unnecessarily. Please trust the people who have navigated political waters no one else has in the history of OKC. This is a sensitive issue and this is the kind of dumb move that could really screw things up.

Seriously John H, please leave the legislature out of the streetcar. They WILL find a way to kill it/impede it/etc. The only reason it has avoided this fate is because they aren't paying attention. One thing they could realistically do whihc would really fowl things up is forbid us from getting any Federal $$ for the project. Don't think they wouldn't do it. The state GOP turns down Fed money all the time (Medicaid expansion, Common Core repeal, etc.).

[kevinpate]

On the notion that members of the Legislature would not want to anger folks in okc who have been making real progress in the way they want to do things

You may be forgetting things like two recent examples:

Shutting down being able to even consider establishing a different minimum wage in the largest city in the largest metro area because other cities in this metro area and other metro areas and rural areas in essence said oh, that's different and therefore, that's bad.

Telling OKC, more than once, we don't care if we started a state project in your backyard on land you donated to the cause, we'd rather spend near on a million to let it semi-rot than be stand up people. This, even when it was clear a majority of the state's elected reps and senators and the governor said they would stand behind the newest funding mechanism to move American Indian Cultural Center and Museum forward. A majority of the state's elected representatives were thwarted by a speaker and house leadership team who insisted you cant have a real majority of votes unless it includes the majority vote would also include a majority of their party in the house.

The folks who occupy the 4th and 5th floor at the capitol are not always keen of doing what is good for the majority of the state, let alone what is good for the majority of OKC. To think otherwise is a touch of folly. As for courting federal dollars, we've never had a Legislature until recent years that seems to view federal dollars as all being coated with a virus and thus should be stopped at the border whenever possible.

[hoya]

The state legislature is made up of a bunch of people from relatively small communities. They don't give one rat's ass about pissing off people in OKC. If you think otherwise, you are wrong. Most of them are from small rural communities and have poor voter turnout. They get support because they're ol' Joe Morton's son, and he used to run the tire factory by the old fire station, and his grandpa helped start up the church on the old country road. By the barn. And the guy comes back from the capitol and says "I told those tax and spend liberals where to stick it. They wanted to spend your tax dollars on a museum, another museum, they already got several, and on a streetcar. What's wrong with takin' a regular car?" And he smiles and he goes to the American Legion meetings and he shakes the hands of voters in their 70s who have never heard of MAPS 3 but are still gonna vote for him because they knew his grandpa, and he went to college, and they figure he knows what he's doing.

That is who is running our state.

[soonerguru]

On the notion that members of the Legislature would not want to anger folks in okc who have been making real progress in the way they want to do things

You may be forgetting things like two recent examples:

Shutting down being able to even consider establishing a different minimum wage in the largest city in the largest metro area because other cities in this metro area and other metro areas and rural areas in essence said oh, that's different and therefore, that's bad.

Telling OKC, more than once, we don't care if we started a state project in your backyard on land you donated to the cause, we'd rather spend near on a million to let it semi-rot than be stand up people. This, even when it was clear a majority of the state's elected reps and senators and the governor said they would stand behind the newest funding mechanism to move American Indian Cultural Center and Museum forward. A majority of the state's elected representatives were thwarted by a speaker and house leadership team who insisted you cant have a real majority of votes unless it includes the majority vote would also include a majority of their party in the house.

The folks who occupy the 4th and 5th floor at the capitol are not always keen of doing what is good for the majority of the state, let alone what is good for the majority of OKC. To think otherwise is a touch of folly. As for courting federal dollars, we've never had a Legislature until recent years that seems to view federal dollars as all being coated with a virus and thus should be stopped at the border whenever possible.

And you're forgetting another big one: the leg and Governor Failin don't want OKC to be able to decide what to do with abandoned properties. Cuz, you know, "local control" is conservative tenet they admire so much.

[Urban Pioneer]

Well this sucks John... I was trying to tell you that I was genuinely excited about induction technology and that we thoroughly considered it. Considering induction (and wireless in general) actually delayed MAPS 3 streetcar by 6 months or more. Now your wanting to contact the state legislature!? Don't you think that if it were at all possible to achieve this the people on this committee would be making it happen? I don't understand your logic at all.

Leave the State Legislature and the Federal Government out of our locally paid for project. Lets build what we promised the citizens of this city we would... a modern streetcar system, with wires.

[Plutonic Panda]

Making headway: OKC Council starts bidding process for downtown streetcar | The Journal Record

[warreng88]

Here is the full article:

Making headway: OKC Council starts bidding process for downtown streetcar

By: Brian Brus
The Journal Record
August 28, 20140

OKLAHOMA CITY – The City Council agreed this week to begin the bidding process to build a downtown streetcar route.

Officials are seeking five dual-powered cars to reduce overhead electrical lines crisscrossing downtown. They would run on supplied electrical power, as well as batteries. Such systems are gaining popularity in cities across the country, said Doug Bowen, managing editor of the industry magazine Railway Age.

Only seven companies are likely to submit bids, Bowen said. Given city leaders’ expectations, he said, that list shrinks to just a few.

“I’m impressed and surprised and happy for Oklahoma City,” said Bowen, who described himself as a snotty Northeasterner. “It’s refreshing that America’s heartland is taking its cities seriously and, as an extension of that, taking streetcars seriously.

“Until very recently, most of the modern streetcars in America have been in the Pacific Northwest, such as Portland and Seattle,” he said. “Now they’re all over the place.”

Oklahoma City’s streetcar plan is part of the $777 million MAPS 3 package of public attractions and infrastructure projects approved by voters in 2011. Other projects include Oklahoma River activities, senior wellness centers and sidewalks throughout the city.

About a year ago, an oversight committee with public feedback set the route for the $128.8 million system, which will run in a loop bounded by NW 11th Street, N. Broadway Avenue, Sheridan Avenue to Joe Carter Drive, Reno Avenue and N. Hudson Avenue. The design allows for several expansion options and is expected to serve as a transition between corridors stretching across the metro area.

One of the major concerns in choosing a design has been how to work around intrusive electrical lines. Bowen said dual-power systems are popular, but have limited utility because streetcars can’t run far on their own batteries. A dual-power streetcar would be appropriate to protect a historic bridge, for example, as the cars leave the electrical grid just long enough to cross.

Alternately, some streetcar manufacturers have been able to install electrical lines at street surface, he said.

Bowen said the most likely contender to bid on the Oklahoma City project is Siemens, followed by Brookville Equipment Co. Other potential bidders include Alstom, Bombardier, CAF USA, Kinkisharyo International and United Streetcar LLC.

“The market is getting crowded now because it’s proven to be profitable,” he said.

The contract will be awarded in February and the project will begin operations at the end of 2017, MAPS project director David Todd said.

Two of the closest communities to develop streetcar systems recently are Kansas City, Missouri, and the Oak Cliff neighborhood in Dallas. Salt Lake City opened a line last year, he said, and Washington, D.C., plans to run a new line late this year, as is Atlanta.

“So the good news is that Oklahoma City is not alone in this endeavor,” Bowen said. “It’s exciting. It’s one thing when Portland, Oregon, does something like this because it’s like, ‘Yeah, big yawn, those liberal, left-leaning, tree-hugging, blah blah blah.’ But even in the deeply red states now you’re seeing streetcars transcend the national political divide.”

[JohnH_in_OKC]

OK. Guys you've outvoted me. Actually I figured at least SOME of you would support my actions since we are going alone on our streetcar project without ANY money from the feds (that I know about). This was just my effort to solve a lot of nascent issues:

1. Getting the DOT to give us a lot of money so we could not only build our system, but expand it without having to be burdened with 100% of the costs,
2. Stopping more unnecessary & unsightly overhead wires in our downtown where much of our electrical, phone, cable and fiber optic wires are already buried.
3. Getting OKC and the US into using induction power which I think will be dominant within 50-100 years, perhaps sooner.
4. Putting OKC on the map as the innovator we SHOULD be, not as a follower.

I think our chances were fair to very good to add induction power to our streetcars, if we strongly pursued that course. But you guys may be more realistic than I am. I know the legislature has thrown away millions of federal money from health care and education. I just had hopes that we could try to persuade them to reverse their hurtful (to the poor & middle class) tactics to trash every initiative that is made by the Obama administration, even if it is detrimental to our state citizens.

I won't be writing any emails, letters, or making any contact with my legislators or the legislative leaders next week. Only extraordinary circumstances would change my mind. Besides, I would need your help on any project of this sort, and I have not been persuasive to almost anyone. ---

At least I made you think. -- John

[HOT ROD]

John, actually you scared us a little bit. Our system will be great, as was said, I agree that you hardly notice the overhead wires for the Seattle SLUT or the newly constructed First Hill lines. I think some may be confusing streetcar power with light rail power lines, which tend to be larger/bigger and much more obtrusive. Streetcar lines are similar to the cable TV or even telephone lines, low and thin. :..

[JohnH_in_OKC]

John, actually you scared us a little bit. Our system will be great, as was said, I agree that you hardly notice the overhead wires for the Seattle SLUT or the newly constructed First Hill lines. I think some may be confusing streetcar power with light rail power lines, which tend to be larger/bigger and much more obtrusive. Streetcar lines are similar to the cable TV or even telephone lines, low and thin. :..

The cable TV and telephone lines in my neighborhood and the lines paralleling our new boulevard downtown in the area where Fred Jones Ford used to be are UGLY! They're a blight on my neighborhood (probably for the next 50+ years) and they'll be a blight on our new boulevard and our new convention center if the utility lines are not buried.

[Plutonic Panda]

The cable TV and telephone lines in my neighborhood and the lines paralleling our new boulevard downtown in the area where Fred Jones Ford used to be are UGLY! They're a blight on my neighborhood (probably for the next 50+ years) and they'll be a blight on our new boulevard and our new convention center if the utility lines are not buried.

Now I will go to back with you all the way on city utility lines. Every one of them needs to be buried. It is mind blowing to me why they widen or reconstruct roads and don't bury them.

[LakeEffect]

Now I will go to back with you all the way on city utility lines. Every one of them needs to be buried. It is mind blowing to me why they widen or reconstruct roads and don't bury them.

Because the City would have to pay that extra cost; or the ratepayers if we wanted that included in our rates... It's not some magical, inexpensive thing to do.