Streetcar

[Urban Pioneer]

Its ok dude. I was stoked about induction too. Bombardier's engineers are brilliant. The technolgy is almost science fiction. At a minimum it would have been the largest use of induction since Nicola Tesla was alive. But we probably can't afford it, were prohibited by law, and obviously there is some operational risk to being the first. Cool idea though.

[Urban Pioneer]

If people are wondering what we are going on about, here is the test track that Mark Gibbs (Subcommittee Member) went to. Keep in mind that this has not been installed anywhere and our budget and proposals were always based on overhead wires like most American cities.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AsfkUipDSNM

[betts]

The route has been public knowledge for how many years now?

And the engineers designed the route. And the subcommittee voted on the final route out of the proposed options the engineers drew up.

There are 10 committee members and anyone who's gone to a few meetings knows there's not a pushover on the committee. No one person had influence on this route out of proportion to anyone else on the committee. Also, remember that an LPA preceded this route selection, came out of a completely different committee, and bears a lot of resemblance to this route. The LPA had multiple measurable parameters influencing its design. No need for conspiracy theories because there was none.

Whoops, wasn't intending to reply to you Catch. Oh well.

[hoya]

You guys are acting like this induction stuff is new technology. My uncle rigged up something like this to steal power from the electric lines outside his house years ago.

[JohnH_in_OKC]

Engadget published this story a few hours ago:

London to start trialling wirelessly charged buses

[Urban Pioneer]

You guys are acting like this induction stuff is new technology. My uncle rigged up something like this to steal power from the electric lines outside his house years ago.

Its the scale and the use that is different. 700v dc is different than powering some light bulbs or an electric tooth brush. Tesla pioneered some of this stuff. Raytheon tried focussed power several times for transmission, bit this is different. Its a moving object rather than a fixed transmission point.

[David]

Urban, do you have any idea how difficult it would be to retrofit an existing modern streetcar system with inductive power once the technology is more mature? Is this something we could take another look at in ten years or so, or is it now or nothing?

Also, are there any actual benefits are far as electricity usage is concerned with an inductive system versus wires? Given that the only difference is the power transmission method I am assuming no, but I would like to know if that assumption is incorrect.

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk

[hoya]

Its the scale and the use that is different. 700v dc is different than powering some light bulbs or an electric tooth brush. Tesla pioneered some of this stuff. Raytheon tried focussed power several times for transmission, bit this is different. Its a moving object rather than a fixed transmission point.

It was a joke.

[Bullbear]

If people are wondering what we are going on about, here is the test track that Mark Gibbs (Subcommittee Member) went to. Keep in mind that this has not been installed anywhere and our budget and proposals were always based on overhead wires like most American cities.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AsfkUipDSNM

Very cool system!.

[Anonymous.]

One of the reasons a wireless system would be risky is that the city would be required to purchase wireless cars without a guarantee of what type of system technology it could get. State law and city charter prevents the city from hiring the same firm to design and build the system.

“With streetcar projects, typically a city will say here is what we want and here is what we can afford,” Todd said. “But we have to go in pieces … with a design, bid then build process.”

Wireless technology exists, but because it’s a technology that manufacturers often keep secret, exact costs are hard to estimate. If the city were to pursue a completely wireless system, there is the risk it would exceed the $130 million budget and delay the construction completion date.

So the reason to not go with completely wireless - is because we have to buy the streetcars first before we know how much the actual infrastructure will cost?

Does anyone know why this is the order? Why exactly does the city have to buy streetcars before the track design/construction bids are in? Why not get a bids for totally wireless, hybrid, and then full wire?


Also, who exactly is worried about the timing of the streetcar? I feel like the city has a false sense of urgency to get a streetcar up ASAP. This has been such a long process, why rush anything at this point?

[Bullbear]

Its ok dude. I was stoked about induction too. Bombardier's engineers are brilliant. The technolgy is almost science fiction. At a minimum it would have been the largest use of induction since Nicola Tesla was alive. But we probably can't afford it, were prohibited by law, and obviously there is some operational risk to being the first. Cool idea though.

People keep going on about it.. how we should just go for induction and be the first and not rush to hybrid wire technology. .but nobody ever seems to address one factor you keep pointing out.. " we are prohibited by law" doesn't that make all other arguements Moot?.. to me it sounds like we just CAN"T do it.. so moving forward. am i missing something?

[OKCisOK4me]

I think we should rename the Streetcar to Central Oklahoma City Kickoff System... That way, when people ask how you are getting from McNellies to the Thunder game, "Oh, I riding the..."

Daaaaaayum!

[Urban Pioneer]

Anonymous, Bullbear is right. First in foremost, we are prohibited by state law and our city charter from even pursuing this because it is is a turnkey solution. In answer to your question, we couldn't do those processes separately because the powering technology would have to be installed beneath and between the tracks. We would have to know that's what we wanted to do. There would be no advantage to bidding separately. This also goes to address David question. Retrofitting would mean essentially tearing everything out and start over again. Putting wireless in later is not really possible unless it is an entirely new system.

Essentially, a streetcar system is multiple system working together in concert. It is not one singular system.

[JohnH_in_OKC]

Anonymous, Bullbear is right. First in foremost, we are prohibited by state law and our city charter from even pursuing this because it is is a turnkey solution. In answer to your question, we couldn't do those processes separately because the powering technology would have to be installed beneath and between the tracks. We would have to know that's what we wanted to do. There would be no advantage to bidding separately. This also goes to address David question. Retrofitting would mean essentially tearing everything out and start over again. Putting wireless in later is not really possible unless it is an entirely new system.

Essentially, a streetcar system is multiple system working together in concert. It is not one singular system.

Urban Pioneer: You keep referring to an induction based OKC transit system is against state law. Well, why not use that to leverage the Feds' DOT? Here's how it would work. OKC would get the state legislature to pass a law striking the competitive bidding process on new technologies IF and ONLY IF the federal government provided 50% or more of the cost of construction. I think OKC would have a 90% chance of having our legislature pass that law and an over 50% chance of getting the DOT to give us a LOT of money. The DOT would be giddy at the prospect of a more efficient, low carbon power source for transit systems around the country. Who, but innovative OKC, would be a better place to put a transit system that potentially solves a lot of our nation's energy problems?

If we put induction power plates where traffic is likely halted, like the London bus trials, we could save a lot of money. We'll just need to buy streetcars that can additionally be charged by induction. I'm sure Bombardier would be glad to sell us some.

The Future of the London Bus Part 1
The Future of the London Bus Part 2 (This part includes more info on inductive powered transit.)

[David]

I think OKC would have a 90% chance of having our legislature pass that law.

That seems highly unlikely. With the current state of our state politics, the last thing we want to do is draw the attention of the legislature to anything they might break. Next thing we know they would prohibit building a streetcar system with the same logic they used to ban municipalities from setting their own minimum wage.

[Urbanized]

Also highly unlikely that the legislature would pass anything with the intent of seeking more federal involvement/financing

[JohnH_in_OKC]

Also highly unlikely that the legislature would pass anything with the intent of seeking more federal involvement/financing

Next week, I'll try contacting both Republican and Democrat House & Senate leaders as well as my own Senator & House Representative to see what they think. Remember, we citizens have already passed MAPS 3 & the intent of our tax on ourselves was to complete all the MAPS 3 projects that were proposed. I doubt any Republican or Democrat would want to anger the citizenry of Oklahoma City. I think everyone in the state is proud of OKC & what a shining example we are setting for the rest of the nation. -- John

[betts]

So the reason to not go with completely wireless - is because we have to buy the streetcars first before we know how much the actual infrastructure will cost?

Does anyone know why this is the order? Why exactly does the city have to buy streetcars before the track design/construction bids are in? Why not get a bids for totally wireless, hybrid, and then full wire?


Also, who exactly is worried about the timing of the streetcar? I feel like the city has a false sense of urgency to get a streetcar up ASAP. This has been such a long process, why rush anything at this point?

What's the big deal with wires? Personally, I like them. My son, an engineer, said one should never buy the first model of any new technology. And I agree - especially considering we're talking about a hundred million dollars of taxpayer money. I don't want something that looks snappy and doesn't work. Not to mention the turnkey issues that have already been mentioned.

[Urbanized]

Next week, I'll try contacting both Republican and Democrat House & Senate leaders as well as my own Senator & House Representative to see what they think. Remember, we citizens have already passed MAPS 3 & the intent of our tax on ourselves was to complete all the MAPS 3 projects that were proposed. I doubt any Republican or Democrat would want to anger the citizenry of Oklahoma City. I think everyone in the state is proud of OKC & what a shining example we are setting for the rest of the nation. -- John

The bumpkins and reactionaries in the legislature as a general rule couldn't care less what the citizenry of OKC thinks of them; in fact many of them specifically dislike OKC. Notable exceptions being the OKC contingent, of course, who are completely beholden to their constituencies.

[hoya]

The bumpkins and reactionaries in the legislature as a general rule couldn't care less what the citizenry of OKC thinks of them; in fact many of them specifically dislike OKC. Notable exceptions being the OKC contingent, of course, who are completely beholden to their constituencies.

To them, we're the big city liberals. Mick Cornett is probably in league with Obama.

Ha ha. Sorry, I'm laughing because it's ridiculous.

[JohnH_in_OKC]

The bumpkins and reactionaries in the legislature as a general rule couldn't care less what the citizenry of OKC thinks of them; in fact many of them specifically dislike OKC. Notable exceptions being the OKC contingent, of course, who are completely beholden to their constituencies.

That's just not true from all the people in the state (and out of state) that I know. OKC has joined Austin, San Antonio, Houston and DFW as great places to live, work and play. And the state is not full of bumpkins and reactionaries. The majority of our people are smart, kind and full of common sense. They just vote more conservatively many of us using the OKCTalk board.

[Urbanized]

I didn't say the STATE was full of bumpkins and reactionaries; I said the STATE LEGISLATURE was full of them. And you have literally NO idea how I vote.

[Laramie]

The rural areas don't share the same ideas as the two major metropolitan urban areas (OKC-TUL) of the state. When it comes to pork, the small communities want as big a piece as the large communities. The state's budget was so stressed; there wasn't any ears to earmark or any pork left in the barrel.

They (small community legislators) could care less about the success of Oklahoma City or Tulsa. They have cities in their districts with one stop light.

Now you know why the OKC American Indian Cultural Center & Museum got left out in the cold.

"Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.

[JohnH_in_OKC]

I didn't say the STATE was full of bumpkins and reactionaries; I said the STATE LEGISLATURE was full of them. And you have literally NO idea how I vote.

Touché -- Es tut mir leid. (using a little borrowed French & German) I revised that post and struck the word "you" from it. Thanks for correcting my probably flawed assumption. I still made an assumption about the entire OKCTalk membership who post, but I've been posting here just short of five years & think (hope) I understand the political leanings of the majority of the people who post on OKCTalk boards.

Unfortunately, I believe our state legislators are measured by their votes. Any votes that do not conform to whomever is setting the "conservative vote" guidelines can result in loss of their monetary and political support, especially for non-Tea Party Republicans.

[JohnH_in_OKC]

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