Turner Turnpike

[gopokes88]

If they raise it to 80 they need to enforce left lane passing only heavily.

[Snowman]

If they raise it to 80 they need to enforce left lane passing only heavily.

Much of the time there is left lane passing, the person in the far left lane had been failing to yield for miles

[Larry OKC]

If that's the case, I take back my snarkiness. There's no excuse for driving dangerously like that.



Red light cameras are a completely different beast than speed cameras. Red light cameras reduce light running, but increase fatal accidents. Kind of defeats the point of improving safety. I recall reading something about a lot of cities in Florida taking down their red-light cameras because of how dangerous the effects are.

Why would it increase fatal accidents? I would think it would have the opposite effect...if someone runs a red light and plows into crossing traffic...

[vaflyer]

Why would it increase fatal accidents? I would think it would have the opposite effect...if someone runs a red light and plows into crossing traffic...

This is how I believe red light cameras contribute to fatalities. Two cars, one in front of the other, approach an intersection with a yellow light. The front car slams on the breaks while the second car hits the gas. The result is that the driver and front passenger of the second car are seriously injured or die and so do the passengers (usually kids) in the backseat of the front car.

Also, I agree that they should step up the enforcement of the "left lane is for passing only" law.

[Rover]

This is how I believe red light cameras contribute to fatalities. Two cars, one in front of the other, approach an intersection with a yellow light. The front car slams on the breaks while the second car hits the gas. The result is that the driver and front passenger of the second car are seriously injured or die and so do the passengers (usually kids) in the backseat of the front car.

Also, I agree that they should step up the enforcement of the "left lane is for passing only" law.

From a national law enforcement magazine:

Are Red Light Cameras an Effective Crash-Reduction Solution?

By Richard J. Ashton, Chief of Police (Retired), Frederick, Maryland; and Grant/Technical Management Manager, IACP

Following are several items that support the effectiveness of red light cameras:8

A 2011 study compared fatal intersection crash rates before (1992–1996) and after (2004–2008) 14 U.S. cities with populations of 200,000 or more had implemented red light cameras and then compared those results to 48 similarly sized cities without cameras during both periods. It found that the average annual rate of fatal red light–running crashes had declined for both study groups, but the decline had been greater for cities with red light cameras than for cities without them (35 percent versus 14 percent); and that the average annual rate of all fatal crashes at signalized intersections had decreased by 14 percent for cities with red light cameras and had increased slightly (2 percent) for cities without them. The study concluded that red light cameras had reduced the citywide rate of fatal red light–running crashes and, to a lesser but still significant extent, the rate of all fatal crashes at signalized intersections.9
Howard County, Maryland, began testing red light cameras in 1994; has utilized them for enforcement since 1997; has regularly evaluated its program; and has found “substantial overall crash reductions at almost every approach that had a red light camera,” with the majority of the approaches experiencing reductions in excess of 10 percent.10 Overall, Howard County realized a 31 percent reduction in all crashes, a 42 percent decrease in angle crashes, and a 30 percent decline in rear-end crashes.11 Moreover, a 2002 socioeconomic cost of collision study conducted by the Maryland State Highway Administration at Howard County and other Maryland red light camera sites identified statistically significant reductions in overall crashes and in left-turn crashes, which resulted in an average cost savings of $196,000 per intersection studied.12
When the Virginia legislature allowed the statute under which red light cameras had been authorized to lapse in 2005, the relative risk of red light running in the months immediately following their discontinuation was 2.63 times higher at four Virginia Beach intersections, and it increased at those same intersections to 3.59 times higher one year after the law’s demise.13
A study conducted between July 1, 2007, and June 30, 2008, by the Texas A&M University System’s Texas Transportation Institute of 56 intersections with red light cameras in 10 Texas cities showed an average 30 percent decrease in overall crashes, as well as an average 43 percent reduction in right-angle crashes.14
The Transportation Research Board’s 2003 synthesis suggested that “automated enforcement of red light running can be an effective safety countermeasure.”15 To that end,

There is a preponderance of evidence, albeit not conclusive, indicating that red light–running camera systems improve the overall safety of intersections where they are used. . . . There is also evidence, also not conclusive, that there is a “spillover” effect to other signalized intersections within a jurisdiction.16
Although nearly every study and crash analysis performed . . . has had some experimental design or analysis flaw or deficiency, there is considerable “evidence” that [red light] cameras do have an overall positive effect.17

[Snowman]

Why would it increase fatal accidents? I would think it would have the opposite effect...if someone runs a red light and plows into crossing traffic...

There was several cities that started shortening the length of their yellow lights after the red light cameras went in (some alleged it to be an attempt to increase fees collected at the expense of safety)

[venture]

This is how I believe red light cameras contribute to fatalities. Two cars, one in front of the other, approach an intersection with a yellow light. The front car slams on the breaks while the second car hits the gas. The result is that the driver and front passenger of the second car are seriously injured or die and so do the passengers (usually kids) in the backseat of the front car.

Also, I agree that they should step up the enforcement of the "left lane is for passing only" law.

So because some jackass who failed to maintain a safe distance from the car in front of him, automatically makes them more deadly?

The biggest issue I see in that scenario is the mindset that if the light is yellow = gun it and beat the read. When in reality it should be the light is about to be red and you need to stop unless you are already in the intersection.

Not say I've never sped up to make a yellow light, but I've also made sure no one was in front of me that would cause me to stop. I also act fairly cautious approaching a traffic light if I'm following someone, in case it does change and they stop. It's just proper driving IMO.

[mugofbeer]

Ive read articles that cite studies showing where fatalities drop, the overall number of accidents has increased - primRily due to people hitting their brakes unexpectedly. My quarrel with them is that Ive watched the one outside my office window go off a thousand times on motorists who were legitimately in the intersection. They go off like halftime at the Super Bowl after a lightning storm.

[vaflyer]

So because some jackass who failed to maintain a safe distance from the car in front of him, automatically makes them more deadly?

The biggest issue I see in that scenario is the mindset that if the light is yellow = gun it and beat the read. When in reality it should be the light is about to be red and you need to stop unless you are already in the intersection.

Not say I've never sped up to make a yellow light, but I've also made sure no one was in front of me that would cause me to stop. I also act fairly cautious approaching a traffic light if I'm following someone, in case it does change and they stop. It's just proper driving IMO.

I never said intersections were more deadly with red light cameras, I only said how they contribute to fatalities by increasing rear end crashes. Yes, they also reduce fatalities from side impact crashes. As for the net effect, I will leave that to the experts.

Here is my opinion as a driver. I would rather the intersection not have a red light camera. If I am at an intersection and the light turns green. I look both ways before proceeding into the intersection. If there is a red light runner, I wait for him/her to clear the intersection. Now, suppose there is a red light camera and I approach an intersection with the light turning yellow. If I stop, I must assume the car behind me will also stop. If he/she does not and I do then guess what my car gets seriously hit. Hence, I feel much more in control of my safety without red light camera. Add in the fact that many people are distracted in their cars with their phones and the chance of that rear end crash only goes up because of it. Now, I know people should not talk/text and drive but they do and I can not stop them. Instead, my safety is in my ability to avoid those drivers on the road and I can best do that without red light cameras.

[bombermwc]

Ive read articles that cite studies showing where fatalities drop, the overall number of accidents has increased - primRily due to people hitting their brakes unexpectedly. My quarrel with them is that Ive watched the one outside my office window go off a thousand times on motorists who were legitimately in the intersection. They go off like halftime at the Super Bowl after a lightning storm.

I would argue against that. Any study I've ever read has shown that the cameras are held up in court in the 90th percentile. The fact that it went off while they were in the middle of the intersection means that they should have stopped at the light. They help keep the intersections clear too. If there's traffic and you end up in the middle of the intersection when it turns red and you're sitting there, that's a ticket. Decreasing the time a yellow runs is a horrible idea and any city that does that should be taken to court to comply with standards of warning light length.

We may not like them but its because it forces us to follow the law more accurately and takes away more of the decision process from your desire to beat the light and puts it in your wallet. Personally, I hate them. But I also will acknowledge what they are able to do.....IF they are used properly. There's a heft investment in installing them so don't expect to see wide spread use in OKC any time soon. Quite often, since the service is contracted outside of the city, the city itself does not earn much on the ticket, so they have to jack the tickets way up to be able to afford the overhead. <- San Diego is a good example of how NOT to do it and their own mayor was against them.

[mugofbeer]

Argue all you want but I sit and shake my head at the almost daily rear-enders at the light outside my window. We had a short thunderstorm yesterday afternoon and the light was going off, indiscriminately, 2-3 times a minute for a good 30 minutes after the storm. Several states have outlawed them and Colorado probably will eventually. Where there has been the most controversy are the speed vans and lights that either get you if you run the light or if the front bumper of your car encroaches the crosswalk even an inch. The vans can deny you the ability to defend yourself because you may not have even been aware if you were speeding or not. Tickets just myteriously show up in your mailbox. Whether they hold up in court or not, they clearly are a money-maker for most cities and can be abused in many ways z as you said, by shortening the yellow lights, by falsifying radar scanners, by abusing the crosswalk encroachment laws without consideration for the realities of driving.

[Of Sound Mind]

How are red-light cameras relevant to the thread topic?

[kevinpate]

My deal is it too easy to get a drivers license. I accidentally floated a stop sign because I was nervous during my drivers exam and I passed. That is ridiculous. Not to mention they test in an area with low traffic in Edmond and it is incredibly easy to navigate.

Plu, thank you for that testimonial. I can't disagree with you. Perhaps you can become the face of a new movement in OK, one designed to make roads safer. Call up some Ogles, including the lost one I suppose, and announce a press conference about driver safety. When they arrive, tell them you are concerned that licenses to drive are passed out faster and more freely than Justin Beiber's private cell number in a middle school assembly. Demand that it stop. Share your story and in an act of contrition and to demonstrate your commitment, whip out your DL and some sissors and cut that baby in half for the cameras.

Don't forget to arrange for a ride home.

[Rover]

So because some jackass who failed to maintain a safe distance from the car in front of him, automatically makes them more deadly?

The biggest issue I see in that scenario is the mindset that if the light is yellow = gun it and beat the read. When in reality it should be the light is about to be red and you need to stop unless you are already in the intersection.

Not say I've never sped up to make a yellow light, but I've also made sure no one was in front of me that would cause me to stop. I also act fairly cautious approaching a traffic light if I'm following someone, in case it does change and they stop. It's just proper driving IMO.

My wife was nearly killed last year when a driver sped up to beat a yellow (that actually became red before she hit the intersection) and t-boned my wife's car on the driver's side. Whatever they can do to stop and penalize the jack-asses that do this is fine with me. The sheer arrogance of people who think their time is more important than other people's lives is just amazing and a testament to their stupidity.

By the way, the driver had minimal insurance, and we are still paying out of pocket and they essentially walked away.

[Richard at Remax]

Ive found myself waiting a few seconds when the light turns green (I don't care if you honk!) because it seems lately that too many people are running lights. Its getting bad out there and something needs to be done

[Plutonic Panda]

Ive found myself waiting a few seconds when the light turns green (I don't care if you honk!) because it seems lately that too many people are running lights. Its getting bad out there and something needs to be done

bro I just nearly got taken the f out by a SCHOOL BUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! at Classen and 10th just a bit ago.

[warreng88]

I used to work at Chesapeake and my office was at the building on 63rd, Expressway and Portland. I would pull out of the parking lot going south on Portland, usually stopping at the light a few times. I would say nine times out of ten, there would be someone turned west onto Expressway from NB Portland that would run the red light. One time, I was going south and was the first person after the light and FIVE cars ran the light. When it turned green, I started to go and saw two cars come through, then three more sped through like it was nothing. I laid on my horn and started to go and one of them had to go around me since I had already pulled through the intersection. I tweeted to the OKC Police twitter page that they need to sit at that intersection if they want an easy way to get tickets.

[TheTravellers]

Ive found myself waiting a few seconds when the light turns green (I don't care if you honk!) because it seems lately that too many people are running lights. Its getting bad out there and something needs to be done

So anybody know why cops don't deal with red-light-runners here like they do with speeders? Motorcycle cops were out in force on NW 164th Monday with radar, and on I-44 one day last week (at least 3 cops on each day, I think I-44 had 3 on each side). If they'd devote 10% of the time to ticketing red-light-runners that they spend ticketing speeders, it would be incredibly helpful. Red-light-runners are waaaaaaaaay more dangerous than speeders, IMO. And yeah, I probably already know the answer - speeders are easier, low-hanging fruit to pick...

[rezman]

Ive found myself waiting a few seconds when the light turns green (I don't care if you honk!) because it seems lately that too many people are running lights. Its getting bad out there and something needs to be done

Being a motorcycle rider, I learned to do that years ago. Same with watching cross traffic with their turn signal on. I won't pull out untill they turn.

Red light running has become a serious problem.

[venture]

Maybe they need to start putting in automated spike strips or steel rods that come out of the ground when the light changes. Personally I would love to see steel rods to get those people that seem to enjoy creeping and creeping and creeping past the BIG WHITE LINE waiting for the light to change.

I think we need to change the topic from Turner Turnpike to a general driver commentary at this point. LOL

[bombermwc]

Argue all you want but I sit and shake my head at the almost daily rear-enders at the light outside my window. We had a short thunderstorm yesterday afternoon and the light was going off, indiscriminately, 2-3 times a minute for a good 30 minutes after the storm. Several states have outlawed them and Colorado probably will eventually. Where there has been the most controversy are the speed vans and lights that either get you if you run the light or if the front bumper of your car encroaches the crosswalk even an inch. The vans can deny you the ability to defend yourself because you may not have even been aware if you were speeding or not. Tickets just myteriously show up in your mailbox. Whether they hold up in court or not, they clearly are a money-maker for most cities and can be abused in many ways z as you said, by shortening the yellow lights, by falsifying radar scanners, by abusing the crosswalk encroachment laws without consideration for the realities of driving.

Well you lined out all the reasons that they can be abused, but that doesn't make them "bad" be default. If they are used properly, and plenty of them are, they do correct illegal behavior....and that is what it is. If you run the light....guess what, you ran the light. And, shock, that's illegal. If you can find me a study that shows that red light cameras increase fatalities in the way you claim, then by all means post it here. However, examples studies have already been given here of studies that prove the exact opposite of that. I'm sure that I've ever seen someone so dumb as to gun it whilst still behind another person behind a yellow light. That's just grade A stupid. And that person is gonna do that whether there's a camera there or not and really has nothing to do with the actual camera.

And I'm sure there is no shortage of lawyers ready to take on any city that tries to abuse the product. Not to mention the fact that if a city does tamper with them, and are proven to have done so, they are in violation of any/all agreements with the manufacturers and would be liable for a suit from them as well. Some places may mess with them, but inevitably, they are found-out and the behavior is corrected.

[TheTravellers]

I'm sure that I've ever seen someone so dumb as to gun it whilst still behind another person behind a yellow light. That's just grade A stupid. And that person is gonna do that whether there's a camera there or not and really has nothing to do with the actual camera.

The behavior is usually that person A is approaching an intersection with person B behind them, light turns yellow, person A might normally go through a yellow light, but realizes this intersection has a red-light-camera, so slams on the brakes. Person B might assume that person A was going to go through the light, but person A suddenly doesn't, person B doesn't have time to react and rear-ends person A.

And municipalities all over the US installed red-light-cameras and changed yellow-light timing, the cameras weren't that accurate, all kinds of bad things happened a few years ago when places started installing them, not sure what the current situation is now, though, but for a while, un-cool things were going on with them...

Lots more info here (disclaimer - haven't looked at the site in a while): Red Light Cameras | National Motorists Association

[catch22]

Maybe they need to start putting in automated spike strips or steel rods that come out of the ground when the light changes. Personally I would love to see steel rods to get those people that seem to enjoy creeping and creeping and creeping past the BIG WHITE LINE waiting for the light to change.

I think we need to change the topic from Turner Turnpike to a general driver commentary at this point. LOL

I wish they would install permanent bollards on the far side of the left hand turn lane. That way people turning left from the intersecting street wouldn't cut their turn short and cut the left turn lane of the street they are turning on to. When they do that, and there isn't any traffic, they trip the traffic sensor. So, it holds up people wanting to go straight, because they triggered the light into giving a left turn signal when there are no cars present to turn left.

[tfvc.org]

I lived in St Pete for almost 10 years. Red light runners is (was) problematic there. They put in the red light cameras at intersections that had the highest accident rates for red light runners and the City of St Pete also put up weekly videos on their youtube channel of people running red lights. I have been back in OKC for ~3.5 years now and I still look both ways first before starting at a green when I am first at the intersection in anticipation for those red light runners.

At another token I was in Valencia, Spain last year, and their people start going a few seconds before the light turns green, so people there stop at yellow so they don't get hit by people starting early. It was the strangest thing I have seen.

[rte66man]

Don't even understand why this study is being done as the OTA has already stated they do not think this is a good idea. Even at 75 mph, its a little hairy in some spots.

Assuming the OTA wanted to raise the speed limit, the turnpike in its current state would make this very risky. Dangerously short on-ramps, too many hills, lots of overgrowth from oak trees restricting visibility. There are also about 5 places on the turnpike where privately held ranch roads intersect at-grade. These are likely from when the turnpike was first built as a concession to the landowners out there and would almost certainly need to be removed.

Questions:
(1) - What overgrowth from oak trees?
(2) - What ranch access? The gates you see occasionally are there for OTA trucks to access the road for maintenance.

I do agree with the ramp problem. Ever tried to get up to speed when leaving the Stroud concession area? Brutal if you are eastbound as you have to really strain to see oncoming traffic.