OKC Commuter Rail

[Plutonic Panda]

This is exactly who it works in Europe and I much prefer this. It is so much easier to utilize when transit is set up logically like this. Not having streetcars doing the work of a commuter or worse, buses. You've got to know your transit modes.

And Europe is such a great model of sustainability..... Just look at their economy.

[Urbanized]

I don't think anybody is nor would be advocating for a line up NW Expressway before these other areas. NW Expressway will very likely never change into a more urban destination.

I also want to go on record to say that sending the street car through the Plaza is a horrendous idea. If a walkable experience from a drop-off point at Classen/NW16th is not in the cards, then the Plaza will be quite in the background of OKC's urban landscape within 20 years.

You could have service to Plaza without running down 16th though. For instance, you could extend the soon-to-be-existing service down 10th and then run up a street like Blackwelder or Indiana to get within a block of 16th, or even cross it into Gatewood and on to OCU. This would better serve Classen-Ten-Penn and other neighborhoods in the bargain. I agree about not running down 16th. That would be tricky if not an outright nightmare.

[OKVision4U]

Salt Lake City, San Francisco, Seattle, Portland, Minneapolis, Dallas-Ft. Worth, Denver and Albuquerque all have and continue to expand their Commuter Rail systems as part of their overall regional transit system. Many of these newer Commuter Rail systems use modern MPExpress diesel-electric locomotives manufactured by MotivePower of Idaho. These engines provide increased power and torque, greater acceleration, reduced operational noise, greater safety features, and meet EPA Tier 2 emission standards. These are typically coupled with Bombardier Bi-level Coaches.

For serving longer distance suburbs like Norman, Edmond and Yukon, Commuter Rail offers numerous advantages for the transit user over Light Rail, including higher operational speeds (up to 79 mph), greater seating capacity, work tables and restrooms. So, it's not simply a matter of cost, although that is certainly another significant benefit of Commuter Rail over Light Rail, which requires full grade separation, the acquisition of all new right-of-way, construction of all new track and infrastructure, and full electrification. The difference in cost is staggering, especially for a metropolitan area such as Oklahoma City that does not have the population density or economy of scale of other larger cities that also operate Light Rail systems as part of their regional transit system.

Don't get me wrong. I agree that Light Rail is very exciting and it will certainly continue to be selected as the rail transit option of choice for many situations. But that does not mean it is the best solution for every situation. I don't know about you, but my Grandma still drinks lots of coffee, makes frequent restroom stops, her legs are not what they used to be, and she loves playing Solitaire on her laptop. If she has the option between riding in a comfortable seat with a table for her laptop and a restroom nearby on a Commuter Train from Norman to OKC versus standing in the aisle on a Light Rail vehicle and holding it for 30 minutes, I can tell you without a doubt that she will choose Commuter Rail every day of the week, especially after you inform her that the additional sales tax on her local purchases will only be an additional 1/2 cent to fund the $350 million Commuter Rail line versus 2 cents to fund the $1.5 billion Light Rail line.

Hutch - I am only concerned about the OKC Metro situation. All the others are not "voting" in this initiative. ...and my Grandmother does not live in Seattle or Portland. We are only speaking of the OKC Metro. The OKC metro topography is not San Francisco. ....flat. The suburbs Edmond / Norman / Yukon / Moore will be voting for a new way of business in the OKC area....it is called OKC Metro MAPS. We have already learned that throwing money to the same people, just gets us the same Unfulfilled results. ...so yes, we will vote on this.

I have more concern over my Grandmother, because there are a few places you would be ok sending you grandma on that be noisey track. Most of the existing areas that you are willing to send your grandmother for is because you want to save a $0.015 cents on a vote? ....My Grandmother is worth more than that. Her personal safety is exactly why those areas are abandoned in the first place. You may not be that familiar w/ our city... it has many abandoned areas ( and many are close to your train tracks ).

I will close w/ this, if you spend $350 - $500 Million and no one rides it, beause of the many personal reasons why they don't want to risk their lives ( Grandma's and Grandkids too )...? ...and thus OKC Metro will be missing out on the $ 1 Billion on additional economic impact to the OKC Metro Each Year..... ??? That is the TRUE COST of NOT using Light Rail for our Metro transit solution.

..and Hutch, I don't send my kids to school w/ flipflops in the winter, I spend more than that to keep them safe and warm. It has a higher up-front cost, but they are worth it.

OKC Metro will make a vote for the Best Solution for Metro Transit, not just pick the cheapest Ford Pinto.... ( it's not safe Hutch. )

[Mr. Cotter]

And Europe is such a great model of sustainability..... Just look at their economy.

I'd take Germany's economy if we also got their transit network.

[OKVision4U]

And the LIght Rail can exceed speeds greater than 79 mph. Your large heavy trains will be closer to 35 mph for an average rate of speed.

...and the Light Rail commuter transit has seats too. ...and w/ fold-out tables for laptops.

And Yes, the Light Rail can have the flexiblity to be on grade or above grade ( if the conditions ) warrant that. See, more flexibility.

[OKVision4U]

I want to make one more point about costs.

Mayor Cornett and the OKC leadership were very wise in proposing a Modern Streetcar system under MAPS 3 that could stand alone whether or not we received federal funding to help pay for the system. And it's a good thing they did, because due to new federal funding constraints and criteria, we were not awarded any significant federal funds to pay for our system. We need to take the same approach in planning for our regional transit system. Apply for federal funding and hope for a grant, but plan the system so as to insure we can afford to build it with or without federal money.

Many, if not all, of the cities that have developed Light Rail did so based on substantial federal assistance from the FTA. Without the FTA money, most, if not all, of those systems would never have been built. In this day and age of high federal deficits, conservative government institutions, reduced federal funding for new transit infrastructure and increased applications for new transit project funding, we have to be pragmatic in our thinking and planning, and only propose a regional rail transit system that we can afford to build and operate based on our own local funding. And that is one of the most important things to remember as we move forward and make plans and decisions about an RTA. Because in the end, the only way we are going to be able to develop and operate a regional transit system is through a vote of our local citizens to pay for that system. Whatever we decide to do, we have to be able to convince the voters to tax themselves to pay for it.

Yes Hutch, we might have to pay for this ourselves. Just like we did for MAPSI .... MAPS II. .....MAPS III. and now our business model for future project endeavors like MAPS IV, OKC Metro MAPS, and so on.

Yes, the other cities send their representative here to learn "how did you succeed, when we can't?" And we tell them, we relied on ourselves for support. Not the FTA Hutch.

[warreng88]

If we are talking about light rail for the entire metro (Edmond, Moore/Norman, MWC/Del City) how many miles of rail are we talking about? 2nd street in Edmond to Lindsey in Norman using 235/35 would be roughly 32 miles. Santa Fe train station to I-40 and Douglas would be about nine miles. Let's just round it to 40 miles.

University Link Extension
Northgate Link Extension
East Link Extension

Using Cuatro's links to Seattle's costs and taking the low figure of $200 million per mile would cost the county ($200,000,000 x 40) $8 Billion dollars. Yeah, pretty sure I (and the most of the population of the OKC area) would prefer a lower cost for a slower train.

[OKVision4U]

Let's use the USR estimate of $40 M / mile and the Texas HSR estimates that are the same . Roughly $1.6 Billion for 40 miles. The economic impact to the entire OKC metro will be an addtional $1 Billion p/year... !!!! Definately worth the ROI.

Texas to get shinkansen system | The Japan Times

Texas is looking to add the Dallas / Houston @ 248 miles. for approx. $10 Billion. ...give or take a few dollars.

[OKVision4U]

If we are talking about light rail for the entire metro (Edmond, Moore/Norman, MWC/Del City) how many miles of rail are we talking about? 2nd street in Edmond to Lindsey in Norman using 235/35 would be roughly 32 miles. Santa Fe train station to I-40 and Douglas would be about nine miles. Let's just round it to 40 miles.



Using Cuatro's links to Seattle's costs and taking the low figure of $200 million per mile would cost the county ($200,000,000 x 40) $8 Billion dollars. Yeah, pretty sure I (and the most of the population of the OKC area) would prefer a lower cost for a slower train.

I disagree. I think the rest of the OKC Metro will want the addtional $1 Billion in economical impact ( each year ). That is easy math for most all of us. If we spend 1.6 Billion, we will increase our revenue by $1 Billion each year....? ...so we could have it paid for in 2 years..???? YES !!!!!!!!!!!!

[Just the facts]

If we are talking about light rail for the entire metro (Edmond, Moore/Norman, MWC/Del City) how many miles of rail are we talking about? 2nd street in Edmond to Lindsey in Norman using 235/35 would be roughly 32 miles. Santa Fe train station to I-40 and Douglas would be about nine miles. Let's just round it to 40 miles.



Using Cuatro's links to Seattle's costs and taking the low figure of $200 million per mile would cost the county ($200,000,000 x 40) $8 Billion dollars. Yeah, pretty sure I (and the most of the population of the OKC area) would prefer a lower cost for a slower train.

On the plus side, $8 billion is cheaper than what it cost to build the OKC interstate system in current dollars.

[Urban Pioneer]

I also want to go on record to say that sending the street car through the Plaza is a horrendous idea.

Please clarify. I don't understand why directly connecting to the Plaza District is a bad idea. Especially if it turns north on Blackwelder or Gatewood and runs straight up to OCU. Why is this concept bad?

[Geographer]

Please clarify. I don't understand why directly connecting to the Plaza District is a bad idea. Especially if it turns north on Blackwelder or Gatewood and runs straight up to OCU. Why is this concept bad?

I'm pretty sure that the ONLY reason that the plaza exists was because it was originally a streetcar stop...

That's why Carey Place is a great street as well hidden in Gatewood, that was originally supposed to be streetcar through through there I believe.

[Plutonic Panda]

Right.... Pick up the Journal once and a while. Many European nations are doing just fine.

not what I've heard

[Hutch]

I'm pretty sure that the ONLY reason that the plaza exists was because it was originally a streetcar stop...

The 1929 map that I have shows a streetcar line running north along Blackwelder to 16th and the heart of the Plaza District...

[Teo9969]

Why you don't run to the Plaza:

1. It doesn't tease urban development to a main artery. Even in Europe, the major points of interest have major roads either through or very near to the different stops/stations. if the Plaza can't extend to Classen, every single one of us should be hoping it is an afterthought in the OKC urban landscape in 20 years. The Plaza is engulfed by blocks and blocks of single family homes…that's not a good thing.

2. It's a super narrow street with nothing but 2-3 blocks of 1 story buildings.

3. It can be very well served by Bus routes that lead to other major districts, particularly 23rd and downtown.

…Guys, I love the Plaza, and it is doing great things for OKC…but it's way way way too small to be of note in the OKC of 2030-40. It would need a very aggressive expansion plan that would make a stop at 16th/Classen plenty acceptable to be relevant as time continues to press forward. If we're not building our transit system for the OKC of 2030-40 (at the very least) we're missing the boat entirely.

Going north of downtown, the street-car simply has to go up Classen, Western or Penn.

[OKVision4U]

The flat topography is The KEY to our cost structure for a Light Rail Commuter Line w/ Mag-Lev technology being so low. Also, our Non-Union state helps keep our cost at a very low & managable unit cost for labor.

Exclusive: FDOT OKs American Maglev?s Orlando airport-to-I-Drive route - Orlando Business Journal

This link also has a photo of what OKC Metro could have as well. A clean system that use renewable resources ( wind generates electricity and thus, powers the Mag-Lev ).

[shawnw]

I would love it if all we did was go back to that 1929 map, with those same streetcar lines and bus interconnects and interurbans...

[Hutch]

The flat topography is The KEY to our cost structure for a Light Rail Commuter Line w/ Mag-Lev technology being so low. Also, our Non-Union state helps keep our cost at a very low & managable unit cost for labor.

Exclusive: FDOT OKs American Maglev?s Orlando airport-to-I-Drive route - Orlando Business Journal

This link also has a photo of what OKC Metro could have as well. A clean system that use renewable resources ( wind generates electricity and thus, powers the Mag-Lev ).

You should get in touch with Phil Hughes...he shares your passion for an elevated light rail system throughout the OKC metro...Hughes Synergies Corporation

[OKVision4U]

You should get in touch with Phil Hughes...he shares your passion for an elevated light rail system throughout the OKC metro...Hughes Synergies Corporation

Hutch, why would we ( OKC Metro ) want to pay for a $350 - $500 Million old freight train system ? The ACOG is anchoring us in an old techonoloy that will be out of date as soon as the ribbon is cut. ....and no one will ride this train that has to share the track w/ the freight lines.

This is NOT the product that we deserve!

[shawnw]

Sharing a track with freight trains does not equal buying out of date trains to use for commuters. The trains themselves can still be very modern and enjoyable to be on, and the rider has no idea which track they're on.

[cagoklahoma]

So are you saying this isn't what the are planning on getting? My grandma has been practicing the method to get to her quilting group.

[OKVision4U]

Sharing a track w/ freight means

- Grandma will be walking in the "freight yard" to find her large heavy diesel trains.
- The single mom and her 2 kids will be going into many un-safe areas and their lives will be at risk.
- The Professional Commuter will have to be on the "freight schedule" and therefore the times will be slow and not worth the effort. ie: Drive to Dallas ( 3 hrs ) or Ride The Train ( 5 hrs ). ???
also, the times from Norman to DT / Edmond to DT will not be worth the effort. Longer commute times!!!!!
- The trains will be comfortable as you sit and wait for hours..............

[AP]

Sharing a track w/ freight means

- Grandma will be walking in the "freight yard" to find her large heavy diesel trains.
- The single mom and her 2 kids will be going into many un-safe areas and their lives will be at risk.

You definitely won't be walking in the freight yard? The Amtrak uses freight lines and you board from Santa Fe...

[OKVision4U]

Sharing a track w/ freight means

- Grandma will be walking in the "freight yard" to find her large heavy diesel trains.
- The single mom and her 2 kids will be going into many un-safe areas and their lives will be at risk.
- The Professional Commuter will have to be on the "freight schedule" and therefore the times will be slow and not worth the effort. ie: Drive to Dallas ( 3 hrs ) or Ride The Train ( 5 hrs ). ???
also, the times from Norman to DT / Edmond to DT will not be worth the effort. Longer commute times!!!!!
- The trains will be comfortable as you sit and wait for hours..............

So, the ACOG is offering us this? ....why would anyone want this? .... because the Ford Pinto is cheaper. Thank you ACOG for the Ford Pinto. Did you know the Ford Pinto explodes on impact when hit from the rear? ......This is a great example of what happens when we accept the Cheaper option when they tell us "it's ok".

ACOG, we are worth more than this.

[OKVision4U]

You definitely won't be walking in the freight yard? The Amtrak uses freight lines and you board from Santa Fe...

Andrew, that is just one stop of many. People have chosen NOT to endanger their lives by moving away from those areas for the past 5 decades. Let's not confuse history here.