Dallas

[Plutonic Panda]

I really don't want to see highways like the mixmasters that Dallas has developed in OKC. all the elevated roadway is a nightmare for Ice and snow and maintenance. we just removed I-40 Crosstown I don't think we want to make that mistake again.

I wouldn't mind seeing it but ground level would better. I want to see something like Central Expressway or the new 635 redesign here one day when traffic numbers support it.

[Geographer]

I really don't want to see highways like the mixmasters that Dallas has developed in OKC. all the elevated roadway is a nightmare for Ice and snow and maintenance. we just removed I-40 Crosstown I don't think we want to make that mistake again.

Plupan, I know you really do like the highway system in Dallas, but frankly it's kind of a nightmare. People drive so fast and the highways are so large and so wide that it's really intimidating. The lifespan of many of these highways are coming to a close where they need serious repair, maintenance, and reconstruction that the area, TXDOT, and the Fed's simply can't pay for it. All of the highways, especially urban highways, dissect neighborhoods in Dallas/Fort Worth so much that it makes it really hard to walk between urban neighborhoods immediately east, south, and southeast of downtown Dallas.

Too many transportation decisions down here by TXDOT and NTTA about their expansion of new highways and toll roads are made without considering the land use consequences of expansion into rural and ex-urban areas. Transportation decisions by TXDOT and NTTA are being made in silos by civil engineers looking really only at "level of service".

The DART system, in theory, is great. It's the largest mileage light rail system in the entire country but many of the stations are simply park-and-ride and aren't developing the kind of TOD expected. It's really hard to focus on DART/TOD while rapidly expanding and planning more and more highways out to the middle of nowhere.

And Bullbear is right, the mixmasters are concrete jungles that scream danger during ice and snow.


This is taken from the "A New Dallas" website about their vision for 345:

IH345 is the official name for the stretch of elevated highway defining the eastern boundary of downtown Dallas between Woodall Rodgers to the north and RL Thornton (I-30) to the south. It was built 40 years ago and currently divides downtown from Deep Ellum and Near East Dallas.

This independent study began 2 years ago to explore the economic, environmental, and traffic impacts of removing the freeway as it approached the end of its structural life span. While the remainder of this study explores the impacts of inner-city highways and the need to remove them, this particular highway section was chosen as opposed to the other freeways bounding downtown Dallas for a few primary reasons:

Age: Elevated highways typically have a structural lifespan of about 40. It is now 40 years old.

Structural Instability: Due to the asymmetric column structure supporting the road, it is more unstable than typical elevated freeways. Since 2000, 487 cracks have been spot repaired.

Lack of existing improvements in the area: As the economic impact section shows, the study area shows an enormous amount of underdeveloped land around IH345, mostly consisting of vacant land, surface parking lot, or excessive public right-of-way.

Lack of on-going investment in area: Due to the Arts District, uptown development, and various other projects going on around the city, the area around IH345 has the least amount of positive momentum.

No current plan on the books: At the time this study began, construction work had begun on Klyde Warren Deck Park spanning Woodall Rodgers freeway, planning for Project Pegasus and the East Corridor was on-going, therefore three of the four sides already had enormous amounts of mental and financial capital expenditures. IH345 represented the most forgotten and the greatest opportunity.

East Dallas: The original expansion direction of the city. Near East Dallas from I-30 to the historic ‘M’ Streets, from downtown to White Rock Lake consists of more than 5,000 acres of some of the best “bones” in all of Texas. However, much of the historic grid and architecture is plagued by blight and disinvestment, but it represents the best opportunity between existing and potential value.

Late in 2012, TxDOT began feasibility studies for various options to either repair or rebuild IH345. You can find the 9 options on their website. None of the current proposals include the removal of the highway section and the reconstruction of the historic grid to knit downtown back to its eastern neighborhoods as cities around the country and globe are doing. We suggest doing just that.

However stated on their website, proper weight is not being given to considerations other than moving vehicular traffic. As we’ll demonstrate in the traffic section, the 160,000 vehicles per day that use the corridor are there only because the highway is there. And both downtown and East Dallas suffer from it.

Instead, we propose using metrics and priorities other than simply maintaining status quo, including:

Revitalizing downtown Dallas, East Dallas, and Deep Ellum
Growing tax base through improved quality of life
Increasing transportation choice
Reducing unnecessary infrastructural burden and public costs
Creating more affordable walkable urban housing
Improving public safety
Expanding local business opportunities
Reducing vehicular congestion
Improving air quality

[ChrisHayes]

While I wish Oklahoma City had this kind of development, I have to say I'm glad we don't have the traffic they do. The congestion we have is enough for me. But I do want to see a lot more development.

[mugofbeer]

I'd like to see the NW Hiway rebuilt a la Central. I know it cant be all lowered but it would be nice to see it improved. Dreaming

Edit......OKCs Northwest Hiway that is....

[JoninATX]

Soondoc, believe me when I say OKC is doing just fine. I would be happy if some other city had 100 people moving there everyday. Austin traffic already rivals Southern California, Going out isn't cheap anymore and there is always a long line or if your waiting for your table which can take up to an hr during lunch & evening times. Other than that Austin is a great place to live and visit.

[zookeeper]

I'd like to see the NW Hiway rebuilt a la Central. I know it cant be all lowered but it would be nice to see it improved. Dreaming

Edit......OKCs Northwest Hiway that is....

It's funny, the Northwest "Expressway" with stop lights every mile. It always throws visitors looking for this "expressway."

[adaniel]

Soondoc, believe me when I say OKC is doing just fine. I would be happy if some other city had 100 people moving there everyday. Austin traffic already rivals Southern California, Going out isn't cheap anymore and there is always a long line or if your waiting for your table which can take up to an hr during lunch & evening times. Other than that Austin is a great place to live and visit.

I don't not get the need for some on this forum to consistently compare a metro area of 1.3 million to one with over 7 million. That's over 5 times the population. I wouldn't compare DFW to NYC or London, they are simply not in the same leauge. For the record, I think compared to other similar sized cities, OKC pulls its weight VERY well, at least now. IMO people sometimes forget how big we are. It's an admirable trait. OKC's like the small dog with a lot of fight...but at the end of the day certain things will simply not be feasible here.

And for the record, (not directed towards anyone) please just stop with this "OKC needs giant freeways" nonsense. People who drive on the highways in Dallas and say this obviously have not done so in a daily commuting fashion. I would NEVER hope that OKC would need to get to the point where such things are needed, because IMO its only spured by poor development patterns.

I can appreciate large public works projects done right. But some of this stuff, like the new interchange at 35 and 635 is so ghastly, its pretty much blighting an entire section of town. Also, this is all being financed by some of the shadiest toll agreements...I have no idea how some of this stuff is legal. And its quite expensive. I work with people who have little choice but to take the Dallas North Tollway or SH 121, and their toll bills annually are over $3k. No suprise that there is definitely a backlash brewing with NTTA.

[Plutonic Panda]

I don't not get the need for some on this forum to consistently compare a metro area of 1.3 million to one with over 7 million. That's over 5 times the population. I wouldn't compare DFW to NYC or London, they are simply not in the same leauge. For the record, I think compared to other similar sized cities, OKC pulls its weight VERY well, at least now. IMO people sometimes forget how big we are. It's an admirable trait. OKC's like the small dog with a lot of fight...but at the end of the day certain things will simply not be feasible here.

And for the record, (not directed towards anyone) please just stop with this "OKC needs giant freeways" nonsense. People who drive on the highways in Dallas and say this obviously have not done so in a daily commuting fashion. I would NEVER hope that OKC would need to get to the point where such things are needed, because IMO its only spured by poor development patterns.

I can appreciate large public works projects done right. But some of this stuff, like the new interchange at 35 and 635 is so ghastly, its pretty much blighting an entire section of town. Also, this is all being financed by some of the shadiest toll agreements...I have no idea how some of this stuff is legal. And its quite expensive. I work with people who have little choice but to take the Dallas North Tollway or SH 121, and their toll bills annually are over $3k. No suprise that there is definitely a backlash brewing with NTTA.

now surely I wasn't in that "group"

[JoninATX]

I don't not get the need for some on this forum to consistently compare a metro area of 1.3 million to one with over 7 million. That's over 5 times the population. I wouldn't compare DFW to NYC or London, they are simply not in the same leauge. For the record, I think compared to other similar sized cities, OKC pulls its weight VERY well, at least now. IMO people sometimes forget how big we are. It's an admirable trait. OKC's like the small dog with a lot of fight...but at the end of the day certain things will simply not be feasible here.

And for the record, (not directed towards anyone) please just stop with this "OKC needs giant freeways" nonsense. People who drive on the highways in Dallas and say this obviously have not done so in a daily commuting fashion. I would NEVER hope that OKC would need to get to the point where such things are needed, because IMO its only spured by poor development patterns.

I can appreciate large public works projects done right. But some of this stuff, like the new interchange at 35 and 635 is so ghastly, its pretty much blighting an entire section of town. Also, this is all being financed by some of the shadiest toll agreements...I have no idea how some of this stuff is legal. And its quite expensive. I work with people who have little choice but to take the Dallas North Tollway or SH 121, and their toll bills annually are over $3k. No suprise that there is definitely a backlash brewing with NTTA.

My last post was about Austin and its growth. Both cities Austin and OKC is a better comparison than Dallas. That I will agree with.

[Plutonic Panda]

Let me also state, I am not trying to compare OKC to Dallas in proper scale.. I am merely saying there are a few things we can learn from Dallas.... or TxDOT in general. Building freeways or tollways would be one of those. Even Dallas is getting a 20 lane highway doesn't mean for us to model the same highway it has to be that wide. I am speaking in reference of how they toll, beautify the highway, having all exits on the lefthand side, using flyovers instead of cloverleafs etc.

Austin is another city we should look to and model ourselves from for certain things they do much better. Portland is another city we can look to to build a great street car network.

It isn't bad to look to a city for ideas just because they have a larger population than you do.

[OKCisOK4me]

I agree with the Portland model PluPan.

The Dallas model can suck it, though...

Sent from my Inspiron 7537 using Tapatalk

[Plutonic Panda]

The Dallas highway system or DART?

[Geographer]

It's a love/hate relationship with tolls. People have to understand that if they want that highway out to their home in Frisco then they might have to pay a toll to pay for the maintenance of that road. That's just how it is when the legislatures won't raise the gas tax.

[adaniel]

My last post was about Austin and its growth. Both cities Austin and OKC is a better comparison than Dallas. That I will agree with.

You are right, didn't mean to cause confusion. I was definitely in rant mode yesterday.

now surely I wasn't in that "group"

Trust me you are not the only one.

It's a love/hate relationship with tolls. People have to understand that if they want that highway out to their home in Frisco then they might have to pay a toll to pay for the maintenance of that road. That's just how it is when the legislatures won't raise the gas tax.

You won't get any disagreement from me here. Way too many people see cheap McManisions out in Prosper, Little Elm, etc. and don't calculate the true cost of ownership. With that in mind, I think something is very wrong when you start trying to convert a paid-for HOV lane into a toll-only express lane as with what is being proposed with 75 and 35E.

[JoninATX]

Ah no worries Adaniel, comparing OKC to Dallas is like night and day.

[Teo9969]

I am speaking in reference of how they toll, beautify the highway, having all exits on the lefthand side, using flyovers instead of cloverleafs etc.

[Teo9969]

I think the thing OKC needs to learn from Dallas, more than anything else, is what to do with Uptown. Nobody in OKC cares and probably won't for a very long time, about 50th and Rockwell.

But Dallas has a 10 to 15 year head-start on the areas that are similar to OKC's "Inner-Loop". We need to figure out what to do with the triangular area between 235, NW 23rd, and I-44. There are some things Dallas has done well in their "uptown" areas, and some things they've done poorly. We can learn a lot by copying what they've done right and fixing/re-imagining what they did wrong.

[Plutonic Panda]

excuse me.... I meant the right side of the highway

[OKCisOK4me]

The Dallas highway system or DART?

Both. OKC is more Portlandish...without the scenic river and mountains and clouds and fog AND Portland is like a mega Austin with all its weirdness and OKC is definitely starting to get that weirdness going on.

[Plutonic Panda]

Here's an update to the major highway projects in DFW and North Texas. I'll update this page with some projects later tonight.


http://www.keepitmovingdallas.com/si...te%20Paper.pdf


https://www.dallaschamber.org/files/...%20180-181.pdf

More large highway projects, and toll lanes, on the horizon for North Texas - Dallas Business Journal

[Plutonic Panda]

LBJ Express Interchange

[Plutonic Panda]

New Richards Group HQ Update from Kingpin on DFWU



Richards Group HQ (~238 FT) - Page 4

[Plutonic Panda]

Architects: Building Trinity Tollway would pass a mess to our grandkids | Dallas Morning News

[Plutonic Panda]

I-345 tear down proposal update Cover story: Who will cash in on I-345? - Dallas Business Journal

[Plutonic Panda]

Really cool!

The inaugural DART train to Terminal A arrived at 3:50 this morning, with greeters from DFW and DART. Theresa M., a United Airlines employee, was the first passenger.

- http://dfwairport.com/pressroom/DFW_..._to_Dallas.php
- https://www.facebook.com/DFWAirport/...473599/?type=1