Malls in OKC

[adaniel]

Anyone thinking traditional, enclosed malls are totally dead anachronisms of the past haven't been to the greater Dallas area lately. Was there this past weekend, and visited two different malls - one in Arlington, and the other in Dallas (Galleria). These places were packed, stores were busy, and in fact the Arlington mall was open well past 10PM and still busy when we left (excepting Starbucks, grrrrr). I'll concede that last weekend was Texas' tax-free back-to-school weekend, but that notwithstanding, these places aren't in danger of folding anytime soon. The Galleria recently completed an expansion and it was clear new construction had been completed fairly recently in Arlington, or so it appeared.

As someone who lives in the DFW area I'm going to politely disagree with some of this.

Yeah pretty much all the malls down here were packed this weekend, but I would consider that an accurate measure of retail performance. I can think of plenty of malls that have bit the dust....just off the top of my head, Prestonwood, Valley View, Richardson Sq, Big Town, Red Bird. That's just in Dallas County.

Collin Creek and Willowbend malls, both in Plano, have struggled a bit. But go across town and the outdoor "lifestyle center" at the Shoppes at Legacy is packed 24/7. Also, I don't think the Galleria has had any expansion but maybe I've missed it. IMO the Galleria has gone downhill. In terms of upscale stores, Northpark and Highland Park Village are cornering that market.

I think much like OKC you are just seeing retail return to a more appropriate equilibrium. Even now DFW is pretty overbuilt in terms of retail space and there's no telling how much Amazon and the internet will ultimately gobble up brick and mortar sales. The malls that will succeed are going to be "destination" type places; I don't think your typicall mall is out of the woods by any means.

[Plutonic Panda]

Every mall I've gone to in the Dallas area has always been booming. I go to Dallas a few times a month and every single time I go they are absolutely teeming with life.

I will second SoonerDaves comment, traditional enclosed malls are far from dead and as the economy recovers, I'd bet we will see some new construction where needed.

[Urbanized]

Well, between 1956 and 2005 more than 1500 new, enclosed malls were built nationwide. Thirty per year, on average. And now not a single enclosed mall has been built in this country since 2006 and experts predict half of all existing ones will close in the next ten years. But believe whatever you want to believe, you always do. Don't let facts start getting in the way NOW.

[Plutonic Panda]

Just like how some said the Era of big box construction was over.

Also, I never stated new malls were going to be built as a fact but was more of what I think is going happen. That's all I meant by it. I understand it's been awhile since was built and that experts suggests half of them will close.... That's fine. I never disputed that or said anything about it.

If you read my post... I merely said every time I go the Dallas area malls which are a few time a month when I travel there, i see them teaming with life. They are great malls... Secondly, i said I think the malls will make a comeback.. That is all. You can calm down.

[Geographer]

I live in the DFW area now and avoid the regular malls like the plague. Since I live near the airport, I usually go to the southlake town square area...which is essentially a "lifestyle" center.

[bombermwc]

I feel like the malls are being killed off by the developers looking to make some cheap strip structures machine gunned around a map of the city so they can get their ROI back quicker. Just the type of developer I hate, the quick return instant gratificaationist with no ties to the city. If you don't build strip malls for people to go to, then they will still come to the stores in the mall.

Take Old Navy in Norman. There is no magically mystery to what would happen if it moved into a store in University Park. People would go to Old Navy there because that's where it is....say what? I know, shocking. If the store stays in the mall, guess what....they go to the mall. The store is what drives where the people go, not the structure. If you don't have the option of driving your car between each store, well guess what, you don't....you walk it. But in the strip mall lifestyle bull-crap world, we get these horrible "centers" that make walking mostly something you can't do. If you're a supporter of walkability, then you should be a supporter of malls. I don't see people driving their car from one side of the mall to the other. Why? Because it's more convenient to walk that distance inside.

[venture]

I feel like the malls are being killed off by the developers looking to make some cheap strip structures machine gunned around a map of the city so they can get their ROI back quicker. Just the type of developer I hate, the quick return instant gratificaationist with no ties to the city. If you don't build strip malls for people to go to, then they will still come to the stores in the mall.

Take Old Navy in Norman. There is no magically mystery to what would happen if it moved into a store in University Park. People would go to Old Navy there because that's where it is....say what? I know, shocking. If the store stays in the mall, guess what....they go to the mall. The store is what drives where the people go, not the structure. If you don't have the option of driving your car between each store, well guess what, you don't....you walk it. But in the strip mall lifestyle bull-crap world, we get these horrible "centers" that make walking mostly something you can't do. If you're a supporter of walkability, then you should be a supporter of malls. I don't see people driving their car from one side of the mall to the other. Why? Because it's more convenient to walk that distance inside.

I would the only issue I have with this is that I've been to a few really well done lifestyle centers and the amount of walking was no different than a mall. The biggest take away I think is that in a traditional mall, you are inside and don't realize how far you are really walking. Well done lifestyle centers that create an old style downtown of sorts with all the shops that you can easily walk between shouldn't be confused with the strip mall developments we have here. UNP for example isn't a lifestyle center, it is planned to have one in it, but it is not one as of right now.

[Urbanized]

I rest my case that the term "walkability" is its own worst enemy. It is too easy to misunderstand and misapply. The track around a football field at a rural high school is easy to walk around, too, but that doesn't make it walkable in the urban planning sense. A shopping mall surrounded by vast parking lots is just about the LAST thing that qualifies a community as "walkable."

[bombermwc]

Venture - if it's done right, you correct, it can be great. Unfortunately, we don't seem to operate that way in Oklahoma. All of our "centers" are very suburban and spread out. Every once in a while, you'll see a small portion that has some nice walkable areas, but they don't ever create the real walkable design like a true lifestyle center should have. If we had one, it would be nice.

urbanized - I probably didn't word that very well. I agree (to some extent) with what you're saying. My point was that at least with a traditional mall, walking from store to store is the desired mode of transit. Of course it would be even better from a walkability standpoint if we had a walkable district (if you're talking details of the term walkability). That's a whole other ballgame of discussion though....and design/living/etc. There's the easy access of the strip (which is one reason why they're building the crap because people are lazy and want it), but they bring inefficiencies like people driving from one store to the next. I was just commenting on getting people to use their legs and walk at a mall instead of driving. In conjunction with venture's comments - if our centers were designed properly, then even the strips would be walkable. It's just unfortunate that we don't have any of that. What we get instead is a bunch of disconnected developers that slap a quick structure in and do it for as little as possible regardless of the impact or without thought to traffic/walkability/etc. Heck, 19th st. in Moore is a great example of how you can get a random mix of a LOT of development but none of it ties together and can start to cause pains.

[Jeepnokc]

I rarely go to the mall or to the retail developments except if I need a targeted item. I do not have an opinion as to which is better. However, there are two factors that I think factor in. In Oklahoma, we have some weather extremes as far as biting cold and blistering hot. I would walk from one end of the mall to the other but would not walk from one store to another outside unless it was a mall set up like the outlet mall where they were all very close together and there was some protection from elements. The other factor is the lack of window fronts in the big outdoor stores. If the stores would put windowfronts in like you see in the bigger cities, then I think people would be more apt to walk down the sidewalk window shopping to get to the next store. (example would be the Gordmans next to the Kohls down in Moore. The stores are basically next to each other but I think most people drive from one to the other based on what I have seen when I have had to go there)

[kevinpate]

..... admits to shopping in Anchor A, stowing items in trunk and driving around to Anchor B more than once in my lifetime.

[shawnw]

Given the scale of some enclosed malls (structure and parking wise), I'm surprised big retail partnerships haven't formed and started demanding cities raise taxes and build huge concrete structures that the discrete retail entities then lease and occupy, similar to how many stadiums and arenas are funded and built these days...

[Plutonic Panda]

A New Life for Dead Malls ? The Atlantic