OKC Commuter Rail

[Teo9969]

"Are you going to ignore the potential of Western Ave completely? Are you going to dismiss the reality that there are several major schools/churches in this general direction. And will you also continue to ignore the reality that many people living downtown currently drive up to this area of town for a host of reasons including food, work, play, and shopping, and that this area, due to its proximity to some of OKC's richest neighborhoods and biggest business, will always maintain a level of high-quality retail/restaurants."

There are tons of places in the city have lots of schools and retail. Are you asserting that if it has these things, those corridors are good candidates for medium to high-density transit? That's what I'm getting at.

Not just those things, but yes, that's a major factor. The difference between 63rd/Western and Memorial/Penn or NW Expressway/Hefner Parkway is everything in between.

Classen is really only half a billion dollars away from being incredibly walkable. The Francis Apartments could fit on almost any lot fronting Classen between 23rd and NW Expressway.

Most of the buildings would be pretty easy to raze and build with better urban design principles without being $25 Million buildings. There's just been no reason to do so right now. A street-car and general connectivity of OKC's urban core will do such a thing.

[Teo9969]

If you took the same amount of streetcar track and placed it along 23rd between MLK and Shepard Mall, it would be nothing short of transformational for that corridor. I'm struggling to see how a route to CHK would give us more bang for the buck.

This is one of the few Embark routes in the entire city that actually does what it's supposed to. Not that I don't agree with you that the street car would be good here but there's not a whole lot of space for it when you consider how congested 23rd is and will always be due to the capitol being at one end of the spectrum.

I also don't think there is as much transformative potential on this stretch simply because portions of this stretch are 1. already in good shape (mainly between Western and Broadway see: The Rise, Cheever's, Cottages other developments that are well on their way to happening) and 2. Because OCU and Big-Box stores make up large swaths of this route, it would take far more resources (both power and money) for these areas to become urban centers.

[Teo9969]

Danziger Straße und Prenzlauer Allee - Berlin, Deutschland

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.5391...K4KzHCvPpA!2e0

[Teo9969]

NW 36th Street and Classen Boulevard - OKC, Oklahoma, USA

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.5077...sFi-5rLThw!2e0

[Urban Pioneer]

who exactly is "planning" the streetcar route?

Our committee is planning MAPS 3. The ACOG Committee came up with this larger system plan and is applying it to us. I agree about the density comments regarding Classen versus Western. I do suspect that Classen is going to change. This sets us up for rapid streetcar on NW Expressway.

Agree about 23rd street. It would be transformational. Keep in mind that these LPA's are generated by commuter data, not the more sophisticsted arguments being made here. The Feds use car data to rate transit corridors. Its kind of sickening in some ways.

[warreng88]

I am curious if one of the reasons for selecting Classen would be because it is six lanes from Sheridan to NW Expressway, whereas Western is two/three lanes from 23rd to 50th. This would be less invasive if they need to tear up a lane on either side and it might force the city to rethink Classen being an expressway out of DT and make it more pedestrian-friendly at the same time. Add a couple of bike lanes while you are doing all this work, you have the space for it. Also, Classen is only two blocks at the widest from Western, so having stops two blocks west of where the main attractions are would be a great idea. 42nd street would be a good stop because you have VZD's, Will Rogers Theatre, Musashi's, Barrell, Sushi Neko and The Sip all right there.

[Urban Pioneer]

I suspect the main reasons that Classen rose to the top over Western are-

1. Survey-able car travel data
2. A direct interface with NWExpressway
3. Directly curves around and sets up a connection with 63rd street and the commuter rail stop
4. Cheaper as less invasive (more room as Warren points out)
5. Goes under I-44 instead of over it (would at western) forcing expensive bridge reconstruction

Between the car data that predicates these scoring decisions and the over all cost of one alignment over the other, I can understand why Classen rose to the top.

The density and urbanity arguments are sophisticated. Its obvious that that OKC Talker's understand urbanity. If this alignment is funded, the city needs to reimagine Classen. They need to do that anyway. Intersect the system with a future 23rd street line and Expand rapid transit up NW Expressway... that would be a pretty awesome rapid streetcar system.

[OKVision4U]

The proposed streetcar line from downtown to 63rd is part of ACOG's Commuter Corridors Study. URS Corporation analyzed several different transit modes and corridors for providing commuter transit service between downtown, north Oklahoma City and Edmond, including Commuter Rail, Streetcar, Light Rail and BRT. Based on a number of factors, including ridership, cost and feasibility, the Steering Committee decided that Commuter Rail was the best solution. However, the modeling showed that there was significant ridership demand along an alternative corridor from downtown north along Classen to 63rd that would not be served by the Commuter rail option alone. So, the Steering Committee decided to include the streetcar line extension from downtown to 63rd along with the Commuter Rail option as the Locally Preferred Alternative for the North Corridor. In combination, the two rail transit modes will provide the most effective commuter transit solution, regardless of the fact that there are areas of lower density development along both of the corridors. The decision involved whether or not to include a streetcar line along that specific corridor as part of the LPA or not as part of a future commuter rail transit system.

Regional transit systems are typically developed by a regional transit authority created to represent specific local municipalities. The RTA operates within a specifically created regional transit district using funding derived through a dedicated local revenue source (typically sales tax) from within the RTD. So, the cities being served by the system are all funding its development and operation through local tax revenues collected from within the RTD, and the transit services being provided operate only within the RTD from where the revenues are generated. Ideally, the boundaries of the RTD and its transit service lines are created in order to serve all of the major population and employment centers throughout the region, as well as to maximize the capture of sales tax revenues for funding the system. The fact that there are pockets of low density development within the boundary of the RTD is not the single determining factor for developing transit service lines, especially rail transit.

From a ridership and farebox perspective, it might make sense to only develop and operate rail transit systems within and along areas of the highest population densities. However, cost and feasibility restraints do not always allow for development of a "perfect" corridor and there will almost always be areas of lower density within the system, especially as it initially develops. But that can be a good thing, as it allows for greater opportunities for transit oriented development, which in turn creates more future sales tax potential for increased funding for the system. Remember, it's the dedicated local revenue source that is primarily responsible for funding the system and not farebox receipts. As long as there is significant ridership demand at critical points along and at each end of a transit service line, it may very well be a viable component of the transit system whether or not it passes through areas of lower density.

If you exclude rail transit service to certain areas of Oklahoma City, and to Norman, Edmond, Moore, Midwest City and Del City simply because the service lines pass through some areas of low density, then you might as well just forget the idea of an RTA, RTD and a regional transit system and simply allow COTPA to continue to operate a very limited and ineffective local transit system within the core areas of Oklahoma City using non-dedicated money from the City's general fund. And we all know just how successful that has been.

The URS Corp provided several pieces of "supporting data" and said Ridership will be greater w/ Light Rail. ( hold that thought for a second ). The Brand of Commuter Rail that is being ( streered our way ) is the Large Heavy Diesel Trains on traditional track. ( ??? ) The Steering Committee selected the "cheapest" mode of transit, not the Best Solution. They said the "up-front" cost will be less because we can utilize the existing track...... ? Also, the data is from ridership in the East Coast & Rustbelt markets. They have been using these "old trains" for decades now.

In the State of Oklahoma, we don't use our existing train now. The Oklahoma "Grandma" does not want to be taken to the Train depot and dropped off in the existing track locations. !!!!! This is the equation the Streering committee accepted. There will be very little ridership with this product ( Heavy Trains from Norman to OKC / Edmond to OKC ). I would not feel safe w/ my Grandma in this situation. Steering Committee members need to understand "why" things are cheap. The Yugo, The Ford Pinto.... very cheap. The land next to a landfill is always "cheap". The land next to a rail yard, is always "cheap". The reason why...., there is ZERO desire by consumers to be there. Thus, Zero Ridership. ....this is not my Opinion, this is fact.

If the Steering Committee recommends the Heavy Diesel Trains for our commute, then you will be the last customer that just purchased "the last buggy whip". ....congrats! That would be another GREAT OKIE move.

Light Rail ( modern technology ) is more flexible in locations. ..near existing highways or can be elevated. It can be placed in the High Traffic areas ( near a campus ) or health care facilities. It can use Mag-Lev technology and run quietly through existing residential neighborhoods. ...and the Oklahoma Grandma will be willing to ride this product. .....and we need to have less stops from Norman to Downtown OKC / Edmond to Downtown OKC / MWC to OKC / and yes, Yukon to Downtown OKC. IF, we do that, then the entire metro will be "on-board".

[warreng88]

In the State of Oklahoma, we don't use our existing train now. The Oklahoma "Grandma" does not want to be taken to the Train depot and dropped off in the existing track locations. !!!!! This is the equation the Streering committee accepted. There will be very little ridership with this product ( Heavy Trains from Norman to OKC / Edmond to OKC ). I would not feel safe w/ my Grandma in this situation. Steering Committee members need to understand "why" things are cheap. The Yugo, The Ford Pinto.... very cheap. The land next to a landfill is always "cheap". The land next to a rail yard, is always "cheap". The reason why...., there is ZERO desire by consumers to be there. Thus, Zero Ridership. ....this is not my Opinion, this is fact.

Where are you getting the (facts) "from"?

[CuatrodeMayo]

I suspect the main reasons that Classen rose to the top over Western are-

1. Survey-able car travel data
2. A direct interface with NWExpressway
3. Directly curves around and sets up a connection with 63rd street and the commuter rail stop
4. Cheaper as less invasive (more room as Warren points out)
5. Goes under I-44 instead of over it (would at western) forcing expensive bridge reconstruction

Between the car data that predicates these scoring decisions and the over all cost of one alignment over the other, I can understand why Classen rose to the top.

The density and urbanity arguments are sophisticated. Its obvious that that OKC Talker's understand urbanity. If this alignment is funded, the city needs to reimagine Classen. They need to do that anyway. Intersect the system with a future 23rd street line and Expand rapid transit up NW Expressway... that would be a pretty awesome rapid streetcar system.

A rapid line connection through NW OKC would be amazing, no doubt. However, I would be highly resistant to to this idea (and I know UP and others would be too) until the connections to Capitol Hill, the Plaza, NW 23rd and other transit-prime locations are funded. Further subsidizing low density development along the expressway before investing in these areas would be a mistake.

[soonerguru]

The commuter rail map by ACOG is very exciting. One minor quibble is I would like to see more stops in OKC. There aren't enough.

[Teo9969]

A rapid line connection through NW OKC would be amazing, no doubt. However, I would be highly resistant to to this idea (and I know UP and others would be too) until the connections to Capitol Hill, the Plaza, NW 23rd and other transit-prime locations are funded. Further subsidizing low density development along the expressway before investing in these areas would be a mistake.

I don't think anybody is nor would be advocating for a line up NW Expressway before these other areas. NW Expressway will very likely never change into a more urban destination.

I also want to go on record to say that sending the street car through the Plaza is a horrendous idea. If a walkable experience from a drop-off point at Classen/NW16th is not in the cards, then the Plaza will be quite in the background of OKC's urban landscape within 20 years.

[Just the facts]

Be it rail, buses, or other mass transit forms, I still prefer a transit region where service and frequency can be maximized - even if it comes at the expense of far-flung area. I would rather serve a smaller area very well than a larger area poorly. If you want to have access to mass transit live in the mass transit zone and if you want to drive your car everywhere live outside the zone. Of course, with commuter rail there is the potential to have more than one mass transit zone across the metro area.

[OKVision4U]

Where are you getting the (facts) "from"?

It is part of the report provided by URS.

[OKVision4U]

Be it rail, buses, or other mass transit forms, I still prefer a transit region where service and frequency can be maximized - even if it comes at the expense of far-flung area. I would rather serve a smaller area very well than a larger area poorly. If you want to have access to mass transit live in the mass transit zone and if you want to drive your car everywhere live outside the zone. Of course, with commuter rail there is the potential to have more than one mass transit zone across the metro area.

This is why we need to keep this a Light Rail System that has flexibility in a growth area for Economics & People. Heavy Rail Commuter Trains are not flexible and restrict growth for any area that service is provided ( Norman / Edmond / Yukon / Moore / Midwest City ).

Light Rail can be added to as the growth warrants : ie, ... OU can run a line from campus to the Light Rail Line off I-35. OCCC can run a line to the East to the SE OKC Stop on I-35. ) This is easy, clean, and adaptable. The speeds can be increased if needed. Edmond can run a line from UCO.

JTF, you kwow where I am on this. It doesn't have to be High Speed Rail, but Light Rail w/ the same technology. We get all the advantages of today's technologies in a system that can be "add as we go". This doesn't lock us in a system that is "cheap" because someone has some "un-used train track" for us to buy at a really good price.

[hoya]

Will the future Regional Transit Authority work with surrounding municipalities to help plan or coordinate Transit Oriented Development?

We are looking at connecting many areas that are almost completely suburban. The metro area would gain a lot if the commuter stops would have a walkable mixed-use environment in the immediate area.

I grew up a Del City boy, so I am thinking specifically of the corner of Reno and Sooner Rd. https://maps.google.com/?ll=35.46408...08234&t=h&z=18

This is near the edge of Del City, and rather than using the nearby Anthony's parking lot as a big "park and ride" location (as I'm sure some people will want to do), there's the potential for a very nice mixed use development here. I think the RTA could help municipalities identify the best types of development to encourage in these areas. Smaller cities are probably less likely to have the expertise needed to benefit most from mass transit connections like this.

[warreng88]

Will the future Regional Transit Authority work with surrounding municipalities to help plan or coordinate Transit Oriented Development?

Not to be a d!#k, but I believe that is the plan since it will be called a Regional Transit Authority, not just OKC Transit Authority.

[Just the facts]

I think commuter rail is the most efficient way to connect localized transit zones but the entire system relies on a multitude of transit options all playing the role the do with the most efficiency.

You have to start at the neighborhood level as the fundamental building bock of the city, and I don't mean the track-home subdivision builder's marketing department version of a neighborhood - I mean an actual neighborhood. So starting at the bottom it would work like this:

Level 1: small buses running short localized routes connecting residential areas to the central neighborhood commercial area
Level 2: streetcars connecting nearby central neighborhood commercial areas to each other radiating from a common regional hub
Level 3: commuter rail connecting common regional hubs radiating from a single metro hub
Level 4: statewide regional rail connecting single metro hubs


So let me give you an example of each level.

Level 1: Capitol Hill would serve as a central neighborhood commercial area and would have a transit station. This station would be served by 4 buses that make 15 minutes trips along routes through the residential areas around Capitol Hill. Also at the central neighborhood commercial station would be a streetcar connecting to downtown OKC. A Capitol Hill resident would catch their local bus to their local station and from there they catch a connecting bus to another area of the neighborhood or board the streetcar where the could go to downtown and connect to other levels of transportation.

Level 2: The Capitol Hill streetcar would take them to downtown OKC where they could connect to streetcars serving other downtown adjacent neighborhoods (Plaza District, Wheeler, Midtown, Deep Deuce, etc...). Once in those central neighborhood commercial areas they would transfer to the local buses in Level 1 to get to residential areas, or just enjoy the commercial area itself.

Level 3: Once downtown they could board a commuter train to Norman, Edmond, Yukon, Moore, etc... Once they arrive at the regional hubs they would again go back down the scale and board a streetcar to a neighborhood hub where they can transfer to a bus - or enjoy any type of amenity along the way.

Level 4: If their destination is outside metro OKC they could board a train Tulsa or Lawton.

A single transit trip could consist of many different modes depending on the origin and destination. Maybe people will choose to live commercial center and thus not need the local bus, on the other hand, grandma live a single family home and just needs to go to the pharmacy that in the local commercial center and only needs the local bus. Would it require lots of transfers? That all depends on where you want to start and end, but at least you would have the option.

[Hutch]

Salt Lake City, San Francisco, Seattle, Portland, Minneapolis, Dallas-Ft. Worth, Denver and Albuquerque all have and continue to expand their Commuter Rail systems as part of their overall regional transit system. Many of these newer Commuter Rail systems use modern MPExpress diesel-electric locomotives manufactured by MotivePower of Idaho. These engines provide increased power and torque, greater acceleration, reduced operational noise, greater safety features, and meet EPA Tier 2 emission standards. These are typically coupled with Bombardier Bi-level Coaches.

For serving longer distance suburbs like Norman, Edmond and Yukon, Commuter Rail offers numerous advantages for the transit user over Light Rail, including higher operational speeds (up to 79 mph), greater seating capacity, work tables and restrooms. So, it's not simply a matter of cost, although that is certainly another significant benefit of Commuter Rail over Light Rail, which requires full grade separation, the acquisition of all new right-of-way, construction of all new track and infrastructure, and full electrification. The difference in cost is staggering, especially for a metropolitan area such as Oklahoma City that does not have the population density or economy of scale of other larger cities that also operate Light Rail systems as part of their regional transit system.

Don't get me wrong. I agree that Light Rail is very exciting and it will certainly continue to be selected as the rail transit option of choice for many situations. But that does not mean it is the best solution for every situation. I don't know about you, but my Grandma still drinks lots of coffee, makes frequent restroom stops, her legs are not what they used to be, and she loves playing Solitaire on her laptop. If she has the option between riding in a comfortable seat with a table for her laptop and a restroom nearby on a Commuter Train from Norman to OKC versus standing in the aisle on a Light Rail vehicle and holding it for 30 minutes, I can tell you without a doubt that she will choose Commuter Rail every day of the week, especially after you inform her that the additional sales tax on her local purchases will only be an additional 1/2 cent to fund the $350 million Commuter Rail line versus 2 cents to fund the $1.5 billion Light Rail line.

[CuatrodeMayo]

Granted the topography and built environment of Seattle significantly contributes to cost escalation, these projects provide a good idea of what light rail costs:

University Link Extension
Northgate Link Extension
East Link Extension

[Hutch]

Will the future Regional Transit Authority work with surrounding municipalities to help plan or coordinate Transit Oriented Development?

Absolutely! In fact, it is the leaders of OKC and the surrounding municipalities who are currently directing the Steering Committee for ACOG's Regional Transit Dialogue and working towards creation of the Regional Transit Authority. Thanks to the leadership of Mayor Cornett, Mayor Rosenthal of Norman, Mayor Frye of Midwest City, Councilmembers Elizabeth Waner and Victoria Caldwell of Edmond, and many other elected officials, civic leaders and public representatives, Oklahoma City and many of the surrounding municipalities are in agreement on the need to move forward with creation of an RTA and are working to achieve that goal.

[Teo9969]

I think commuter rail is the most efficient way to connect localized transit zones but the entire system relies on a multitude of transit options all playing the role the do with the most efficiency.

You have to start at the neighborhood level as the fundamental building bock of the city, and I don't mean the track-home subdivision builder's marketing department version of a neighborhood - I mean an actual neighborhood. So starting at the bottom it would work like this:

Level 1: small buses running short localized routes connecting residential areas to the central neighborhood commercial area
Level 2: streetcars connecting nearby central neighborhood commercial areas to each other radiating from a common regional hub
Level 3: commuter rail connecting common regional hubs radiating from a single metro hub
Level 4: statewide regional rail connecting single metro hubs


So let me give you an example of each level.

Level 1: Capitol Hill would serve as a central neighborhood commercial area and would have a transit station. This station would be served by 4 buses that make 15 minutes trips along routes through the residential areas around Capitol Hill. Also at the central neighborhood commercial station would be a streetcar connecting to downtown OKC. A Capitol Hill resident would catch their local bus to their local station and from there they catch a connecting bus to another area of the neighborhood or board the streetcar where the could go to downtown and connect to other levels of transportation.

Level 2: The Capitol Hill streetcar would take them to downtown OKC where they could connect to streetcars serving other downtown adjacent neighborhoods (Plaza District, Wheeler, Midtown, Deep Deuce, etc...). Once in those central neighborhood commercial areas they would transfer to the local buses in Level 1 to get to residential areas, or just enjoy the commercial area itself.

Level 3: Once downtown they could board a commuter train to Norman, Edmond, Yukon, Moore, etc... Once they arrive at the regional hubs they would again go back down the scale and board a streetcar to a neighborhood hub where they can transfer to a bus - or enjoy any type of amenity along the way.

Level 4: If their destination is outside metro OKC they could board a train Tulsa or Lawton.

A single transit trip could consist of many different modes depending on the origin and destination. Maybe people will choose to live commercial center and thus not need the local bus, on the other hand, grandma live a single family home and just needs to go to the pharmacy that in the local commercial center and only needs the local bus. Would it require lots of transfers? That all depends on where you want to start and end, but at least you would have the option.

I absolutely agree with all of this. I would only add that there are destination zones that exist entirely apart from the fact that they are a neighborhood.

Berlin is a great example…you have neighborhoods like Prenzlauer Berg, Kreuzberg, and Charlottenberg…but you also have destinations like the Museum District, Brandenburger Tor, Alexanderplatz.

There is indeed residential and a general neighborhood aspect to places like Alexanderplatz, but the neighborhood makes up a minimal amount of the traffic that flows through that area every day. It's important that we recognize where those places are as well and make sure that they are serviced appropriately.

Those areas in OKC are a bit harder to identify but they do exist. Adventure District, OCU/Shepard Mall (hopefully someday), the Capital, Belle Isle/Penn Square/Western Retail hub, State Fair Grounds and depending on how they develop, Farmer's Market and Stockyard City. Some of those areas have a chance to incorporate elements of a neighborhood, but they will always be important areas in the centralized area of the city (by United States standards) for reasons other than being a hot neighborhood like Deep Deuce, the Plaza, or Midtown.

[Hutch]

Salt Lake City, San Francisco, Seattle, Portland, Minneapolis, Dallas-Ft. Worth, Denver and Albuquerque all have and continue to expand their Commuter Rail systems as part of their overall regional transit system. Many of these newer Commuter Rail systems use modern MPExpress diesel-electric locomotives manufactured by MotivePower of Idaho. These engines provide increased power and torque, greater acceleration, reduced operational noise, greater safety features, and meet EPA Tier 2 emission standards. These are typically coupled with Bombardier Bi-level Coaches.

For serving longer distance suburbs like Norman, Edmond and Yukon, Commuter Rail offers numerous advantages for the transit user over Light Rail, including higher operational speeds (up to 79 mph), greater seating capacity, work tables and restrooms. So, it's not simply a matter of cost, although that is certainly another significant benefit of Commuter Rail over Light Rail, which requires full grade separation, the acquisition of all new right-of-way, construction of all new track and infrastructure, and full electrification. The difference in cost is staggering, especially for a metropolitan area such as Oklahoma City that does not have the population density or economy of scale of other larger cities that also operate Light Rail systems as part of their regional transit system.

Don't get me wrong. I agree that Light Rail is very exciting and it will certainly continue to be selected as the rail transit option of choice for many situations. But that does not mean it is the best solution for every situation. I don't know about you, but my Grandma still drinks lots of coffee, makes frequent restroom stops, her legs are not what they used to be, and she loves playing Solitaire on her laptop. If she has the option between riding in a comfortable seat with a table for her laptop and a restroom nearby on a Commuter Train from Norman to OKC versus standing in the aisle on a Light Rail vehicle and holding it for 30 minutes, I can tell you without a doubt that she will choose Commuter Rail every day of the week, especially after you inform her that the additional sales tax on her local purchases will only be an additional 1/2 cent to fund the $350 million Commuter Rail line versus 2 cents to fund the $1.5 billion Light Rail line.

I want to make one more point about costs.

Mayor Cornett and the OKC leadership were very wise in proposing a Modern Streetcar system under MAPS 3 that could stand alone whether or not we received federal funding to help pay for the system. And it's a good thing they did, because due to new federal funding constraints and criteria, we were not awarded any significant federal funds to pay for our system. We need to take the same approach in planning for our regional transit system. Apply for federal funding and hope for a grant, but plan the system so as to insure we can afford to build it with or without federal money.

Many, if not all, of the cities that have developed Light Rail did so based on substantial federal assistance from the FTA. Without the FTA money, most, if not all, of those systems would never have been built. In this day and age of high federal deficits, conservative government institutions, reduced federal funding for new transit infrastructure and increased applications for new transit project funding, we have to be pragmatic in our thinking and planning, and only propose a regional rail transit system that we can afford to build and operate based on our own local funding. And that is one of the most important things to remember as we move forward and make plans and decisions about an RTA. Because in the end, the only way we are going to be able to develop and operate a regional transit system is through a vote of our local citizens to pay for that system. Whatever we decide to do, we have to be able to convince the voters to tax themselves to pay for it.

[hoya]

Not to be a d!#k, but I believe that is the plan since it will be called a Regional Transit Authority, not just OKC Transit Authority.

Not to be a dick, but you know I'm talking about helping the surrounding areas plan housing at retail options, not just where the stops will be located, right?

[warreng88]

Not to be a dick, but you know I'm talking about helping the surrounding areas plan housing at retail options, not just where the stops will be located, right?

Nope, didn't see that. Move along everyone, nothing to see here. Just a dumb@$$ (me) on the internet...