Will Electronic Signs Cause Edmond to Resemble Las Vegas?

[Filthy]

Dumbest thing I've heard on this forum in a long time....

There wasn't anything in the delivery of my message, nor were there any grammatical errors that would lead one to believe that there is a lack of intelligence on my part. So, if you interpret that post to be "dumb," than that is clearly a fabrication on your part. Sorry that you are butthurt from my opinion, that is shared by many here in Edmond.

[onthestrip]

There wasn't anything in the delivery of my message, nor were there any grammatical errors that would lead one to believe that there is a lack of intelligence on my part. So, if you interpret that post to be "dumb," than that is clearly a fabrication on your part. Sorry that you are butthurt from my opinion, that is shared by many here in Edmond.

Well, truth be told, I thought it was a pretty dumb post too. Calling 39th or 23rd, which might be the hottest stretch of redevelopment in the city, a ghettoville is pretty dumb. I know many Edmond dwellers want it to be some form of pleasantville but the hatred of any signs just seems to be misguided and counterproductive. Its hard to grow sales taxes if people dont know whats there.

[Richard at Remax]

As an Edmondite I say bring on the diversity.

[Plutonic Panda]

Yeah, well, I simply give up in debating this. People are going to continue to believe in whatever it is they want to believe without any open mindedness to reason.

I read this link ( Meeting of ex-Mayors' minds ) a few weeks ago, that Jerrywall gave me and it was literally the same crap I have already addressed.

All I have to say is, I will be in another city around April, and if this is passed, it will get repealed down the road as fresher minds come into the city council. The same will eventually happen with Guthrie, which has seen a lot of backwards decisions by their city council, and Guthrie is a true gem.

[Filthy]

Calling 39th or 23rd, which might be the hottest stretch of redevelopment in the city, a ghettoville is pretty dumb.

In regards to 23rd street, it's awesome that they are recycling that part of the city. It definitely appeals to a certain type of person. I have frequented many restaurants lately along 23rd street, and although the food selection is great...it is somewhat unnerving to even be stopped at a stop light for an extended period of time in that area. Once again.....it appeals to some, for others it doesn't.

39th street? Really? Unless you are looking to purchase a 200,000 mile used Pontiac Grand Am from a tote your note lot, or score some meth.....I'm not really sure what reasons a person of sound mind would have to frequent that area. What is the redevelopment you speak of.

[Mr. Cotter]

In regards to 23rd street, it's awesome that they are recycling that part of the city. It definitely appeals to a certain type of person. I have frequented many restaurants lately along 23rd street, and although the food selection is great...it is somewhat unnerving to even be stopped at a stop light for an extended period of time in that area. Once again.....it appeals to some, for others it doesn't.

39th street? Really? Unless you are looking to purchase a 200,000 mile used Pontiac Grand Am from a tote your note lot, or score some meth.....I'm not really sure what reasons a person of sound mind would have to frequent that area. What is the redevelopment you speak of.

I live around there, so there's that.

[onthestrip]

In regards to 23rd street, it's awesome that they are recycling that part of the city. It definitely appeals to a certain type of person. I have frequented many restaurants lately along 23rd street, and although the food selection is great...it is somewhat unnerving to even be stopped at a stop light for an extended period of time in that area. Once again.....it appeals to some, for others it doesn't.

39th street? Really? Unless you are looking to purchase a 200,000 mile used Pontiac Grand Am from a tote your note lot, or score some meth.....I'm not really sure what reasons a person of sound mind would have to frequent that area. What is the redevelopment you speak of.

This tells me all I need to know. Being unnerved by being at a red light at say, 23rd and Walker is pretty humorous.

Back to my reasoning that your was dumb. Companys need signage, plain and simple. It is highly critical and important for most businesses to have signs that attract customers. And the fact that towns depend on sales tax, attracting and getting shoppers is important. The other reason was that you have a very loose definition of ghettos. 39th and NW 23rd st arent much of a ghetto when you compare to other parts of the city.

And the redevelopment I spoke of was in regards to 23rd st.

[jerrywall]

This tells me all I need to know. Being unnerved by being at a red light at say, 23rd and Walker is pretty humorous.

Back to my reasoning that your was dumb. Companys need signage, plain and simple. It is highly critical and important for most businesses to have signs that attract customers. And the fact that towns depend on sales tax, attracting and getting shoppers is important. The other reason was that you have a very loose definition of ghettos. 39th and NW 23rd st arent much of a ghetto when you compare to other parts of the city.

And the redevelopment I spoke of was in regards to 23rd st.

I can't figure out why Edmond is raking in record sales tax collections, without all those giant electronic signs...

Actually, you do make one good point. Companies will always escalate the signage wars, if allowed. They'll always try to one up the shop down the street. Each time the line is moved, folks try to move it again. That's why lines should be maintained.

[Of Sound Mind]

I can't figure out why Edmond is raking in record sales tax collections, without all those giant electronic signs...

Actually, you do make one good point. Companies will always escalate the signage wars, if allowed. They'll always try to one up the shop down the street. Each time the line is moved, folks try to move it again. That's why lines should be maintained.

THAT is a reasonable argument. While I don't agree with your position entirely or that all electronic signage should be prohibited, I would be agreeable some limitations (size, height, brightness) would be reasonable.

[Plutonic Panda]

THAT is a reasonable argument. While I don't agree with your position entirely or that all electronic signage should be prohibited, I would be agreeable some limitations (size, height, brightness) would be reasonable.

Ps, they already are regulated, and heavily so.

[Snowman]

This tells me all I need to know. Being unnerved by being at a red light at say, 23rd and Walker is pretty humorous.

Back to my reasoning that your was dumb. Companys need signage, plain and simple. It is highly critical and important for most businesses to have signs that attract customers. And the fact that towns depend on sales tax, attracting and getting shoppers is important. The other reason was that you have a very loose definition of ghettos. 39th and NW 23rd st arent much of a ghetto when you compare to other parts of the city.

And the redevelopment I spoke of was in regards to 23rd st.

Signage is one thing, pole signs and electronic signs/billboards are never required

[jerrywall]

Dumbest thing I've heard on this forum in a long time....

Folk who use adjectives such as this reflect more on themselves than anything else. Provide a counterpoint... otherwise it's obvious who the _____ ones are... I'll be happy when the kids go away and the adults can talk.

[bombermwc]

If you don't want them to serve as a distraction to drivers, use the same codes the signs near highways have to follow so they can only change every so often....making them, in effect, static when you drive by. in other words, if you sit and watch them, you'll see them change. But if you just drive by, it wont change and will look like a billboard.

Create a code that the digital has to be integrated into the full sign, so it's "finished" and not left just slapped on a pole.

These are just a few small examples that can help make them work just fine. But like all things in Edmond, someone is going to think that they should be heard complaining about whatever stupid thing is bugging them. I'm sure it "bring down property values" near them. And those streets aren't exactly what I would call pretty. They're just commercial corridors with a bunch of buildings.

Edmond, I really hope you get over yourself one day.

[jerrywall]

Here's the thing... I don't think we're that far apart on this.

I mean... can we all agree that there is some level of sign controls/limitations that should be in place? Folks shouldn't have 100ft flashing electronic signs changing every 6 seconds, right?

If you agree in any sort of controls/codes, then you agree that the city/population has a right or responsibility to control signage. What we're arguing about then, is the specific limits/standards.

A good example of bad signage, and where we could easily go btw, is the tobacco shop that's fairly new on Broadway at 6th. I almost took pics the other day to post. I did call in a complaint on them, for pennants they had hung (against city law) and luckily they were removed. But their hand painted signage, temporary banners, and pennants are the things that will quickly invade broadway without controls. Edmond is trying hard to fix up that stretch heading into downtown and you have these companies setting up really 39th st looking businesses right now that need to be controlled.

[ChaseDweller]

Here's a counter-point. At my church, which sits at a really busy intersection in Edmond, we have one of those plastic slide in the letters kinds of signs. It's enclosed in a brick surround, but the sign part is ugly and plain. We can promote exactly one event at a time. But, we're a busy church and we have lots of activities that the community might like to know about (and that we'd like them to know about). An electronic sign that would let us rotate attractive, low impact (no flashing or video or anything like that) messages about coming events and happenings at the church. That would be a really great thing for us and would be much more attractive than the perfectly legal plastic sign we have now.

I am fully against giant flashing electronic signs and I get the slippery slope argument, but these signs, if done well and properly regulated can be more attractive than the alternatives.

Just my 1/50 of a dollar.

[Plutonic Panda]

If you don't want them to serve as a distraction to drivers, use the same codes the signs near highways have to follow so they can only change every so often....making them, in effect, static when you drive by. in other words, if you sit and watch them, you'll see them change. But if you just drive by, it wont change and will look like a billboard.

They have already done that. Have you seen the regulations?

[Plutonic Panda]

Here's a counter-point. At my church, which sits at a really busy intersection in Edmond, we have one of those plastic slide in the letters kinds of signs. It's enclosed in a brick surround, but the sign part is ugly and plain. We can promote exactly one event at a time. But, we're a busy church and we have lots of activities that the community might like to know about (and that we'd like them to know about). An electronic sign that would let us rotate attractive, low impact (no flashing or video or anything like that) messages about coming events and happenings at the church. That would be a really great thing for us and would be much more attractive than the perfectly legal plastic sign we have now.

I am fully against giant flashing electronic signs and I get the slippery slope argument, but these signs, if done well and properly regulated can be more attractive than the alternatives.

Just my 1/50 of a dollar.

Chasedweller, if you want to get a permit to build an electronic sign, go ahead. You can now. As of right now, you can place electronic signs in Edmond.

[ChaseDweller]

Plutonic Panda - I know, but we decided to wait until after the vote on the Initiative Petition as a show of good faith to the community and a few of our members that are involved in the IP drive.

[Plutonic Panda]

I understand.

[bombermwc]

They have already done that. Have you seen the regulations?

Then what's the problem? These are far less annoying than banners hammered into the grass or crappy marquees with flashing lights. It should actually serve to clean up the amount of advertising crap on those roads since you get more bang for your buck out of an electronic sign. Same reason electronic menus are popular with small businesses.

Similar to Chase, my church recently added an electronic sign and cased it in brick to match the stone signage next to it. We crank the brightness down at night so it's not a glare problem at the intersection. It helps us far better with community info than the old marquee (fyi they are both at ground level, which happens to be elevated from the road height so no height issues there ). That's why I was saying as long as they require that the thing be treated properly and not just slapped on, it can make a huge difference. I'm just wondering the public knows about what the code(s) will be with these. It's not often that the Edmond council makes a decision that detracts from the look of the city. You know they'd be voted out by the next stuff-shirt suburbanite. Personally, you couldn't pay me to live in Edmond, but there are 50K people that like it.

[Richard at Remax]

Definition of stuffed shirt:

stuffed shirt

n. person who is perceived as useless, stupid, or given more credit than he/she deserves -- usually a person in higher income or social prominence. See also, blowhard.

Thanks for describing me so perfectly!

Its funny when people take shots at Edmond they end up sounding/acting like the people they think they are describing. Good stuff.

[Plutonic Panda]

Then what's the problem? These are far less annoying than banners hammered into the grass or crappy marquees with flashing lights. It should actually serve to clean up the amount of advertising crap on those roads since you get more bang for your buck out of an electronic sign. Same reason electronic menus are popular with small businesses.

Similar to Chase, my church recently added an electronic sign and cased it in brick to match the stone signage next to it. We crank the brightness down at night so it's not a glare problem at the intersection. It helps us far better with community info than the old marquee (fyi they are both at ground level, which happens to be elevated from the road height so no height issues there ). That's why I was saying as long as they require that the thing be treated properly and not just slapped on, it can make a huge difference. I'm just wondering the public knows about what the code(s) will be with these. It's not often that the Edmond council makes a decision that detracts from the look of the city. You know they'd be voted out by the next stuff-shirt suburbanite. Personally, you couldn't pay me to live in Edmond, but there are 50K people that like it.

Bomber, the majority of these sheep aren't aware of the laws regarding the new signs and are guided by blind fear tactics.

Then you have people like Jerrywall who claim we live in a Democracy and wanting everything to be put to a vote by the people because they know there will be low voter turnout that WON'T represent the beliefs of Edmond and its people hoping that the majority of people who show up to vote will be the blind sheep who are uniformed and/or pruposely trying to hide facts and skew data to support their ideas.

The fact of the matter is, these signs are great and well regulated. There are strict standards you have to conform to to place one of these signs in Edmond and in April a freedom you now have it up to be removed again. There are zoning laws for a reason, not so you have to apply for a variance every single time someone wants to build something.

There hasn't even been five permits issued for these signs yet since January, but the sheer fact that YOU have the freedom to build one is enough to set of these people and create controversy over what should be nothing. There are suburbs in Dallas that allow these and are 100x what Edmond will ever be, in terms of beautification and development. In every city you have that one suburb that wants to control and regulate everything and you have a small group of people, but they are still large enough to petition and bring votes to a ballot so they can use low-voter turnout tactics to get what they want and Edmond tops the chart on this one.

I love this city and think it is on the verge of greatness, but these people are holding it back. They deny new religious monuments that they don't agree with(Mosque Expansion). They great urban projects(mixed-use 3 story building downtown). They deny more freedom such as this bill. They even try to deny a drive thru.

I still believe the city will succeed and prosper regardless of these stupid decisions.

[jerrywall]

Again, I'm amazed how Edmond was able to prosper and grow for 20+ years and pull in record sales taxes with such stupid and restrictive laws in place. It's amazing how we've managed to function before this year not allowing these signs, since evidently they are sooooooo critical to being a great city.

*cough*

[Plutonic Panda]

The tax revenue can likely be attributed to OKC's growth. Oklahoma City is the only reason Edmond exist and is what it is today. Edmond isn't the only suburb in OKC experience record sales tax revenue.

Also, I never said they were critical to being a great city, just one more benefit and perk.

[Plutonic Panda]

So, here are in November, and it will be a year after this went into effect in February. How many requests has there been for these signs? Not even five; in fact, last I checked, there wasn't even two. Just one permit issued for an electronic sign that I haven't even seen be put up yet. Go figure.

I want to remind people that this country is NOT a Democracy. It is a constitutional republic. The people of Edmond have already spoken by electing their councilperson(s) into office who decided this is best for the city. We don't vote on everything that gets amended because if we did, we'd have a select group of voters, mainly activist, who will use low voter turnout to help them change laws. What we have is a group of old washed-up mayors who had nothing better to do than go around spreading fear tactics and using people's ignorance to get them to sign a petition that would put Edmond a step back into the past, something this is city seems to be very good at doing.

As I've said, almost all the suburbs in DFW have them and they are 10x the city Edmond will ever be. They are beautiful cities and all have electronic signs. Go figure, yet again. This sign ordinance in Edmond is stricter than all of those. Go have a look: https://localtvkfor.files.wordpress....-ordinance.pdf

1. Electronic Message Signs shall not be permitted to exceed a sign in area larger than 75 percent of the allowed sign size by the particular Zoning District where the sign is located as listed in Title 15.

2. Only one Electronic Messaging Sign, per property ownership, shall be located on arterials or higher classified classified streets according to the Master Transportation Plan.

3. Electronic Message Signs shall have a duration of the text or numeral presentation of no less than a 30 second duration per static message for the products or services sold on the subject property. Electronic Message Signs shall not include, moving, scrolling, rolling, animated, revolving, flashing, or blinking messages. A certification statement by the sign manufacturer or a registered electrical engineer shall be submitted with each Electronic Message Sign, documenting the 30 second duration compliance as to the sign operation.

4. Electronic Message Signs shall not exceed a brightness level of 0.3 foot candles above ambient light, as measured by the guidelines below.

a. At least 30 minutes past sunset, use a foot candle meter to record the ambient light reading for the area. This is done while the digital sign is off or all black copy.

b. Take a reading using a foot candle meter at five feet above grade and 100 feet from the sign.

c. The meter shall be aimed directly at the sign

d. Turn the sign on and illuminated entirely in white or red

e. Take a reading using a meter at five feet above grade and 100 feet from the sign.

f. The meter shall be aimed directly at the sign.

g. Take the reading from five feet above and subtract the reading from two feet above. If the result is 0.3 foot candles or lower, then the sign is in compliance. If the result is 0.3 foot candles, the sign is out of compliance and must be adjusted to meet standards or turned off until compliance can be met.

h. All measurements shall be taken in foot candles.

So lets recap the rules:

*Signs can only be located on Broadway, Second Street going east to Interstate 35, West Edmond Road and 33rd Street from Broadway to Boulevard.(Former mayors push electronic sign repeal - Business - The Edmond Sun)

*The actual electronic part of it can't be bigger than 75% of the sign itself. The size of the sign depends on where the sign is located. The electronic sign has to be 25% smaller than any other 'normal' sign in the area, which again, are only a select group of streets in Edmond.

*Only one electronic sign per property

*no animation of any kind. Not any movement of any messages at all. This alone makes Edmond's Electronic sign law very strict because a lot of other cities don't have this restriction.

*the message itself can't change more than once every 30 seconds

*the sign can't be bright

It is truly amazing people oppose this and want to continue forcing developers and business owners to have to file for a variance, which are really only supposed to be for special circumstances; not handed out left and right for people that want a modern electronic sign for their business. They would then have to go through the city council which is harder to get things pushed into than the planning commission and takes more time. It makes zero sense at all. To anyone saying that they should just apply for a variance, you are basically saying they should apply for something that isn't allowed by standard, so why even approve it if it is something as simple and common as an electronic sign? They were actually banned before this ordinance, so quit saying people should get a variance for something that was banned.

So knowing how strict the new ordinance is, if anyone is still against it and the signs being allowed, all I can say is wow. If this stupid called vote ends up repealing the ordinance, I guess we just five more years until sense kicks in the ordinance is reinstated, which will happen.

Go ahead and challenge me on any part of why you think they shouldn't be.

Distracted driving maybe? Nope. As said, the sign can't change more than once every 30 seconds. The change is instantaneous. It is literally no different than looking at a regular sign, but this one changes once every 30 seconds, and the majority of drivers won't watch it change--which is what would cause the wrecks--and it would be viewed as any other sign. There is literally zero proof that the sign have caused any wrecks. "Voters are at odds, but police aren’t. In cities used to moving ads like Oklahoma City and Norman, police say there’s no documented proof that signs cause wrecks."

"Unlike other cities, Edmond electronic signs can’t have animation. businesses can only display text. That text can only change every 30 seconds. The rules aim to avoid distracted driving.

Signs drivers are used to seeing in Oklahoma City change in as little as 10 seconds."

"“As a business person, if I want to put one up, I feel I should have the rights to put it up,” said Kelly Van Osdol, owner of Framin’ Gallery." He isn't the only one. I know a lot of small business owners in Edmond and they are all saying they like the ordinance even though not ONE of them has an electronic sign. It's just nice to know they can.

- Electric signs start big debate among Edmond residents | KFOR.com

Think Edmond is doing for revenue? Think again. Go look at all of the new businesses that are relocating to Edmond and how the sales tax revenue is doing.

I have yet to see one valid point other than "I don't like them because they look bad." I have heard more people say they either don't care or don't think they look bad. You know what looks bad? Utility lines. How about these mayors petition to have all of those buried. Think how much better the city would look.

Anyways, challenge me on any of it, I dare you, and yes, it is still irritating that this was made into an issue. Oh the things that happen in Edmond.