River Grandstand

[Laramie]

There have been plans for an amphitheater in C2S since the first draft, I think the original was larger though and would have held more people than the Zoo one.

The Zoo Amphitheater has held crowds of up to 20,000. The official capacity is 11,200. They must have planned one hell of a venue on the river for MAPS III.

"Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.

[bombermwc]

I"m curious to see what they find when they look over the proposals to see how they were so far off in their estimates, or better yet, why the bids all think it should be so expensive. I'm wondering if the firms added too much padding or grossly inflated their cost estimates. You don't really get into something like this and miss the estimate by 50% and not have something really wrong going on. Either the group that created the estimate was woefully uneducated on something, or we're getting taken for a ride on expenses.

I don't necessarily agree with this, but john w public will probably not really be too hot to agree to an extension for river projects like this. I say that because most people won't ever even go down to the river, so they dont feel any connection/ownership to the project. In relative terms, it's a small slice of the populous but will take quite a bit of capital. I'm 100% for it, but i'm just playing devil's advocate here to keep the enthusiasm grounded in practicality. MAPs3 hasn't produced much yet, and so to the public, momentum doesn't exist. The can't go down and see the park yet, heaven forbid we get anything going on the CC, now there are cost over-runs on a project that hasn't even started to get built yet. So to ask for an extension at this juncture, would not be a good plan. Especially since the previous extension was seen as a a way to cover their butts in miscalculation. Again, hey i'm all for this stuff and the MAPs approach to collections is far superior for these public projects than anything i've seen elsewhere....but if you dont keep the public interested on a broad scale and give them something they can see for it, they start to lose interest. And THAT becomes an issue for the next round. Just IMO here, i feel like the city wants to keep pushing MAPs-style programs so we don't have to kick them back into gear after they've stopped, but that they are in danger of losing the general public's interest after MAPs3's project choices. MAPs4 is going to have to touch things more people use every day instead of just the big trophy stuff.

[Laramie]

You touched on one key items:

bombermwc: MAPs4 is going to have to touch things more people use every day instead of just the big trophy stuff.

Go ahead with what we planned (Grandstands and the Amphitheater). Our river will continue to grow with events and attractions. Let's stay the course, plan for the future expansion and developments...

Are the bids on the Whitewater project over projections because these developers know that there is a $30 million contingency fund?

Not to that say that MAPS brand is safe; however, the survey or a new survey could tell you more about what people value. Here are five of the top items listed on the MAPS III survey:

1. Transit (light rail, streetcars, etc.) 668. (Expand the streetcars system; pilot a few wireless street cars)
2. Infrastructure, Including Streets 188. (Go after matching grant items from the Federal Government.)
3. Trails 140 (Let's loop with few inner spoke wheels into the city).
4. General Parks Improvement/Expansion 123 (Every major city park could use more attention)
5. Beautification (includes trees, streetscapes) 117 (on going...)

All of these items have been somewhat addressed in the MAPS III initiative. Continue to include these in MAPS IV along with a few big trophy stuff items (as you referred to them).

What we will need among the big trophy stuff items:

1. Economic Development 20. An incentive fund to attract new businesses (5 grants @ $20 million)


2. Gateways to City 12. From: Tulsa I-44, Wichita I-35, Amarillo I-40 & Dallas I-35 junctions...

3. Football or Soccer Stadium 65. A riverfront stadium (MLS spec - 30,000-chair back seat starter) capable of future expansion.

[OKVision4U]

The Grandstands on the river could be more lengthy in design too. I like having it stretched somewhat and having a taller finish line area. It doesn't have to be a massive structure, but one that will provide a great look for the River Experience as a whole.

One idea is to have provide an area for walking / running along the south side "boardwalk" of the river and bring it into a Marathon Course layout for finish lines ??

[Plutonic Panda]

agreed!

[bombermwc]

Laramie - i mostly agree, but i'm not sure that i would put economic development in as a MAPs program. MAPs is about stuff...always has been. People want something they can touch and use. I don't disagree that economic development is a major part of the success of the city, i'm just not sure people would want to vote to include it in a MAPs program. I would bet that most people would feel like it would simply be used to pay into pockets of large corporations and they wouldn't see how it serves the city. Again, i'm not disagreeing, but it might be better presented as part of the city budget or through something like the chamber rather than MAPs.

I'm definitely concerned about the grandstands/whitewater and that contingency budget. Something definitely stinks about this, and it's not the river....

[Urbanized]

MAPS is and always should remain a capital projects fund focused on quality of life improvements. The thought was that QOL improvements would help retain existing talent and businesses (it has been very successful in this regard) and that I roved QOL and better talent pool would attract outside investment/expansions/relocations, and all indications is that this is now underway and picking up steam.

It was a rejection of the quick-fix massive-corporate-incentives-for-jobs route that (fortunately, in retrospect) failed to land the United Airlines maintenance facility that ended up in Indianapolis. The lesson we learned was that no amount of incentives could buy quality jobs if it sucked to live here. Selling out this vision and going back to the "please, PLEASE move here...we'll pay you..." route would be a fundamental step back in our efforts.

[Laramie]

Thanks for the reminder bombermwc & Urbanized:

The economic development will come as a result of MAPS and not as a direct financial incentive. We learned that from General Motors along with several other maintenance facilities we attempted to pursue. These are capital improvement projects..

"Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.

[Just the facts]

MAPS is and always should remain a capital projects fund focused on quality of life improvements. The thought was that QOL improvements would help retain existing talent and businesses (it has been very successful in this regard) and that I roved QOL and better talent pool would attract outside investment/expansions/relocations, and all indications is that this is now underway and picking up steam.

It was a rejection of the quick-fix massive-corporate-incentives-for-jobs route that (fortunately, in retrospect) failed to land the United Airlines maintenance facility that ended up in Indianapolis. The lesson we learned was that no amount of incentives could buy quality jobs if it sucked to live here. Selling out this vision and going back to the "please, PLEASE move here...we'll pay you..." route would be a fundamental step back in our efforts.

^This. Plus, no matter what happens the Bricktown Canal and downtown arena are not going to pack up and move to another city. Make OKC a nice place to live and people will want to live there for no other reason.

[Larry OKC]

No need for it to be in any MAPS...we already have multiple economic development funding mechanisms that we use regularly...

Programs | Alliance for Economic Development of Oklahoma City

And there was the $75 million bond issue from 2007 that is used regularly (someone correct me but weren't all of these funded at least in part thru it: Boeing, Continental, Outlet Shoppes, Von Maur and Cabela’s etc??

The City of Oklahoma City - 2007 City Bond Election

[Urbanized]

Yeah, I was going to mention that in my post, but decided that it diluted the point. There are also incentives like the State's Quality Jobs Program. There is no question that some incentive funds are required to make/keep us competitive with other markets, but the point of MAPS is to make the community itself an incentive; to make people and companies WANT to be here, as opposed to being bribed to be here.