NW Expressway & Classen

[Spartan]

I'm no fan of either Wal-Mart or that development, but you know that store is surely one of the top-performing (if not THE top-performing) units in the metro, right? Do you really think the owners of a wildly (commercially) successful development will be tearing it down soon because they'll start wishing it had been built better? With MASSIVE swaths of undeveloped and underdeveloped land all over the city, if they suddenly get an itch to "do things right" do you think they might not instead do it elsewhere and let that development keep happily flowing rivers of cash? Do you honestly believe that Wal-Mart will close and/or move from a hugely profitable location because they are concerned that they might have created a blight on the neighborhood?

It's completely fair to look at that development as a learning experience for the city, and to use it as an example of what we should strive to do better than in the future. But the bulldozer fantasies we have on this board sometimes are so greatly-disconnected from reality, economics and the business world that it causes a loss of credibility when posting other subjects.

Yeah, Belle Isle was completely disappointing, but probably only about 1 in 100 people in OKC knows this or cares. It makes mountains of cash. Hate it? OK. But don't waste your time hoping for it to be gone anytime soon.

THIS. The development review process is all you have. Reality is that once something is built, it's built.mi hate when people say, well we can always fix it later..

[Spartan]

Spring Creek is a "tiny" lifestyle center. Classen Curve and the Outlet Mall are not though.

CC could easily be turned into one...

[Rover]

Spring Creek is a "tiny" lifestyle center. Classen Curve and the Outlet Mall are not though.

Spring Creek has no "living" part to it. It is shops surrounding a parking lot.

[bchris02]

Spring Creek has no "living" part to it. It is shops surrounding a parking lot.

Many lifestyle centers in other cities, such as Pinnacle Hills for instance in Rogers, AR, do not have residential. Neither of the Little Rock lifestyle centers have residential. In my opinion, that isn't a requirement for it to be a lifestyle center, but it definitely is a nice amenity. Spring Creek is tiny compared to those developments but it does have the feel of a lifestyle center, and is the only place in metro OKC that does.

[Spartan]

Little Rock has lifestyle centers?

[bchris02]

Little Rock has lifestyle centers?

Yes, unless your criteria for lifestyle center is that residential must be part of the development. If not, it has two of them, both putting most OKC development to shame.

[foodiefan]

not trying to be snarky, I"m asking a serious question. . .I've never really understood the "life style" concept as "talked about" in the metro area. Before Penn Square was enclosed, would it have been considered a "life style center". The ones without residential/walk-ability just seen to me to be new style "strip malls"/"shopping centers". . albiet very nice ones (i.e. Spring Creek, CC, Utica Square. . .although it is not new).

[bchris02]

not trying to be snarky, I"m asking a serious question. . .I've never really understood the "life style" concept as "talked about" in the metro area. Before Penn Square was enclosed, would it have been considered a "life style center". The ones without residential/walk-ability just seen to me to be new style "strip malls"/"shopping centers". . albiet very nice ones (i.e. Spring Creek, CC, Utica Square. . .although it is not new).

You are right. A lot of urbanists criticized lifestyle centers as being basically glorified strip malls. I can see their point, but in my opinion if you are going to do suburbia, do it with dignity and the lifestyle center is really the best way to do that.

As far as true lifestyle centers with upscale retail and dining on the first floor and a few floors of residential on top, Charlotte has too many to count.

[Spartan]

Yes, unless your criteria for lifestyle center is that residential must be part of the development. If not, it has two of them, both putting most OKC development to shame.

Okay lol, show us these lifestyle centers...

Edit: ...that put us to shame

[bchris02]

Okay lol, show us these lifestyle centers...

Edit: ...that put us to shame

I can post pics later of some of the development there, but I do want to say the Little Rock developments really aren't much to write home about. However, compared to developments like Belle Isle they hit it out of the park. The problem is OKC developers always go for the absolute bare minimum in terms of architectural design.

[Spartan]

I can post pics later of some of the development there, but I do want to say the Little Rock developments really aren't much to write home about. However, compared to developments like Belle Isle they hit it out of the park. The problem is OKC developers always go for the absolute bare minimum in terms of architectural design.

We have a lot more retail development here in OKC than just Belle Isle...

If anyone needs a new shirt, by the way, I'd recommend NW 16th (they've got about 4 cool shops) or N Broadway (which has about (5-6 clothing shops now). Most of my friends in OKC don't exactly wear Old Navy...

[PhiAlpha]

I would consider these two districts in suburban Houston lifestyle centers:

Sugar Land's Townsquare: Sugar Land Town Square | Sugar Land Shopping, Dining, & Events



And in the Woodlands, probably the nicest I've been to, a combination of the Town Centre, Market Street, and the Woodland's Waterway. It also incorporates the Woodland's Mall. These blow nearly all of the planned developments in OKC out of the water and in some ways has a leg up on Bricktown as it currently stands. The woodland's is an elaborate example, but there is no reason that Belle Isle couldn't have become a lite version of this and certainly no reason Edmond, which doesn't have much in the way of urban areas at all, or any suburb for that matter couldn't still build something like this.

Home - Market Street The Woodlands
The Woodlands Commercial Development- Where Business Lives Well



Also, Montgomery Plaza on 7th St. in Ft. Worth is probably somewhat of a lifestyle center.

[bchris02]

^^^ Those developments look amazing. While I wouldn't expect OKC or even Tulsa to be able to support something of that caliber, we certainly could do better than Belle Isle. Unfortunately developers will never propose anything like that because they know they can get away with the bare minimum here. It would have been nice though to at least see something closer to that in lower Bricktown rather than more generic suburbia that completely ignores the canal.

[Spartan]

Everyone here knows what a lifestyle center is.... Y'all will just tempt Kerry to post a million pics of something in France that we should aspire to

[bchris02]

Everyone here knows what a lifestyle center is.... Y'all will just tempt Kerry to post a million pics of something in France that we should aspire to

Its fun to dream and speculate, but we also need to be realistic. Those extravagant developments in the Houston suburbs are far out of OKC's league. Something like these would be more doable in OKC.

Promenade on Providence - Charlotte



Promenade at Chenal - Little Rock



Park Avenue - Little Rock (currently under construction)



Shopps of Saddle Creek - Memphis (could not find picture)

All would be a significant step above the existing retail centers while not too risky for this market.

[Larry OKC]

RE: lifestyle centers, would the development over there in front of the big box stores by Tinker qualify? I don't have pics but was surprised by the "main street" feel of it???

[bchris02]

RE: lifestyle centers, would the development over there in front of the big box stores by Tinker qualify? I don't have pics but was surprised by the "main street" feel of it???

It, like Spring Creek, has a very small section of it that has a lifestyle center feel. Overall that development is more of a power center, like Belle Isle, though done better.

[Spartan]

It, like Spring Creek, has a very small section of it that has a lifestyle center feel. Overall that development is more of a power center, like Belle Isle, though done better.

They're two separate developments, the MWC Towne Center Blvd was a separate phase from the strip mall, and actually, the lifestyle center there is now being expanded into the neighborhood behind it. It's a surprisingly nice project and it really underscores how backwards metro OKC retail development is that MWC has the first lifestyle center.

If your land of milk and honey in Little Rock is surrounded by strip malls as well or pad sites then it is the exact same thing.

Besides, everyone here knows OKC real estate development is light years behind any recent trends. Our suburban developers are still in the 90s no matter how far ahead we are of most peer cities on things like downtown living, urban restaurant scene, etc. I've said it a million times and ill say it again, the few chains that are still holding out over other peer cities aren't caught up on bad demographics here - they're caught up on the dearth of quality, 2013-esque, retail space.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but our available retail developments suck. The outlet mall, which isnt a lifestyle center IMO but is at least as much as these Arkansas digs, is a step forward but that's a separate market that pulls from out of state. We need more progressive retail developers, but once again, retail in OKC was eviscerated in the 90s by Walmart taking over like nowhere else and is still recovering now.

Maybe if Arkansas was as cannibalized as we were by their largest corporation they wouldn't have Pinnacle or Chenal unless it was a new WM format...

[bchris02]

They're two separate developments, the MWC Towne Center Blvd was a separate phase from the strip mall, and actually, the lifestyle center there is now being expanded into the neighborhood behind it. It's a surprisingly nice project and it really underscores how backwards metro OKC retail development is that MWC has the first lifestyle center.

If your land of milk and honey in Little Rock is surrounded by strip malls as well or pad sites then it is the exact same thing.

Besides, everyone here knows OKC real estate development is light years behind any recent trends. Our suburban developers are still in the 90s no matter how far ahead we are of most peer cities on things like downtown living, urban restaurant scene, etc. I've said it a million times and ill say it again, the few chains that are still holding out over other peer cities aren't caught up on bad demographics here - they're caught up on the dearth of quality, 2013-esque, retail space.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but our available retail developments suck. The outlet mall, which isnt a lifestyle center IMO but is at least as much as these Arkansas digs, is a step forward but that's a separate market that pulls from out of state. We need more progressive retail developers, but once again, retail in OKC was eviscerated in the 90s by Walmart taking over like nowhere else and is still recovering now.

Maybe if Arkansas was as cannibalized as we were by their largest corporation they wouldn't have Pinnacle or Chenal unless it was a new WM format...

You are probably right. OKC's entire retail problem can probably be traced back to the same root causes as to why there aren't very many nice grocery stores here. Wal-Mart pretty much called all the retail shots during the 2000s when other cities were getting these nicer developments. Nothing was built in OKC unless it was anchored by a Wal-Mart. By the time it looked like the corner was about to be turned in OKC, the 2008 recession hit and the few proposed developments, ones that would have completely changed retail here and brought us more on the level of peer cities, were cancelled. There are signs of life but what OKC really needs is a slam dunk development that's nice enough to make retailers that have been holding out to give this market a second look. I could be wrong, but I am not aware of such a development currently being in the works so OKC is likely SOL for the time being.

And Little Rock is by no means a retail 'Land of milk and honey.' Retail there was terrible until just a few years ago but since the Promenade at Chenal, Midtowne Little Rock, and Pleasant Ridge Towne Center opened it has improved sevenfold, attracting many retailers who don't typically open in cities that small. I would say its arguable whether they are ahead of OKC or not, but that case can be made. However, they are still a good deal behind Tulsa.

[onthestrip]

Besides, everyone here knows OKC real estate development is light years behind any recent trends. Our suburban developers are still in the 90s no matter how far ahead we are of most peer cities on things like downtown living, urban restaurant scene, etc. I've said it a million times and ill say it again, the few chains that are still holding out over other peer cities aren't caught up on bad demographics here - they're caught up on the dearth of quality, 2013-esque, retail space.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but our available retail developments suck...

This is pretty much the reason we havent seen some of these coveted retailers. Our available space for the most part sucks. And there isnt very much available develop-able land in the good areas. Im mostly referring to the Penn Square area. Belle Isle could have been it but they went the easy route and did a Wal Mart. Classen Curve had a chance but started too soon before acquiring more houses and then decided to let Rand Elliot design it when they should have let someone that knows retail design it. The other option is this NW Expwy & Classen development. However I suspect more houses need to be acquired before it can a the larger, quality retail center we need.

[bradh]

I know this is a bit off topic, but if the old Belle Isle plant could have been turned into something like Gasworks Park in Seattle that would have been cool.

[bchris02]

This is pretty much the reason we havent seen some of these coveted retailers. Our available space for the most part sucks. And there isnt very much available develop-able land in the good areas. Im mostly referring to the Penn Square area. Belle Isle could have been it but they went the easy route and did a Wal Mart. Classen Curve had a chance but started too soon before acquiring more houses and then decided to let Rand Elliot design it when they should have let someone that knows retail design it. The other option is this NW Expwy & Classen development. However I suspect more houses need to be acquired before it can a the larger, quality retail center we need.

Well even a small quality development would be a good start. OKC's retail environment is so behind and overall so dismal at this point there really isn't anywhere to go but up. It really is disheartening because of that Wal-Mart, the Penn Square area will never come close to reaching the potential it had as a true upscale shopping district. As for NW Expy and Classen, I am thinking a small development with maybe a Container Store, a couple of boutiques and upscale chain restaurants would go good there.

[Spartan]

This is pretty much the reason we havent seen some of these coveted retailers. Our available space for the most part sucks. And there isnt very much available develop-able land in the good areas. Im mostly referring to the Penn Square area. Belle Isle could have been it but they went the easy route and did a Wal Mart. Classen Curve had a chance but started too soon before acquiring more houses and then decided to let Rand Elliot design it when they should have let someone that knows retail design it. The other option is this NW Expwy & Classen development. However I suspect more houses need to be acquired before it can a the larger, quality retail center we need.

...and Rand Elliot needs to not design it.

[Teo9969]

Pete, how's the amassing gone in the past year? Any ideas of who is behind this?

If the streetcar does indeed come right by this area, it would seem that something would happen here sooner rather than later (3 to 6 years instead of 5 to 10)

[AP]

This was mentioned in another thread and now I'm really interested. Anyone have any updates?