Streetcar

[Mr. Cotter]

Going to 63rd excites me because it makes me think eventually the plan will be classen>63rd>may>reno. With what is already included in Phase 1, that would have the streetcar covering the entire part of OKC that I spend any time in.

Other than your couplet of Classen and May being 2 miles apart, I like the way you think. Double tracking on both Classen and May, or even Penn, would be great. I like the idea of May, though, because you get coverage to Fair Park.

[NWOKCGuy]

Other than your couplet of Classen and May being 2 miles apart, I like the way you think. Double tracking on both Classen and May, or even Penn, would be great. I like the idea of May, though, because you get coverage to Fair Park.

Well in my dream world there would eventually be a N/S line at Penn and E/W lines at 10th/23rd/36th/50th.

[Laramie]

Wires vs. Wireless?

I thought there are cities that don't have any wires on their street cars??? I don't have any major beef with the wires and if people here say that's what they want, then fine. It's their, well, all our money, so as long as the majority and planners decide it's the best option, then so be it. It just seems no wires would be the option and to me, is more futuristic and advanced.

The wireless street cars are in the early stages being piloted in a number of cities. Agree with some posters that we want to go with a safe and proven system. The wires can be removed as we upgrade.

On the surface many of us would not like to see the overhead wires dangling. It's like the landline phones and telephone poles. The widespread use of cellphones draws parallel with technological advances; therefore it does give the appearance that wires aren't in sink with technology. The wires have been around for as long as I can remember; Dallas had many of its buses wired in the late fifties and early sixties.

We have $130 million (target budget) from MAPS III for the initial start up phase for the street car system. Agree 100%, we have got to get this right--a failed street car system could derail the MAPS momentum.

"Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.

[Urban Pioneer]

This coming Wednesday afternoon, our committee will be reviewing the draft RFP language for the streetcar vehicles. We are pursuing a "hybrid" streetcar. It has been stressed that respondents to the RFP may score higher via their ability to commit to going farther (beyond the bridge underpasses in Bricktown) on batteries, super capacitors, and other onboard energy storage systems. But the yes, the primary "recharging" and powering mechanism will be the presence of a physical overhead wire along most portions of the route.

I am excited though. I suspect that we may end up with a "Tesla car" version of a streetcar. The risks associated with that being mitigated by simply putting up wire in the wireless sections should the end product not perform according to the manufacturer's commitments.

Having ridden the Kinkashryo "Ameritram" hybrid streetcar in Dallas during a test, I am very excited. Siemens has a hybrid on test in San Diego. One of our committee members has ridden on some of Bombardier's streetcars that have similar hybrid abilities. This is an exciting time technology wise. A great deal of it has to do with the advances in Litium Ion Battery technology and the computers that can operate the power management systems. Very cool stuff. I got to see the computer bank on the Kinkasharyo unit. It was first class.

[Laramie]

Hybrid rail street cars?


Kinkashryo "Ameritram" hybrid streetcar, Dallas


Austin, Texas


Fort Worth, Texas


Denver, Colorado


Edmonton, Alberta


Granville Island - Vancouver, British Colombia

They are in the early phases, the hybrid (wireless) street cars and commuter rail in stages of progress in various cities. The bulk of the expense will more than likely be setting up the rail and maintenance facility. Anyone have knowledge about the potential life expectancy of these hybrids?
OKC Proposed Streetcar Routes, Meeting & Rail/Garage Conflit

Urban Pioneer are you at liberty to share your knowledge of this--the initial future plans beyond your previous post?

My understanding is that Oklahoma City has existing rail already in place from our street cars from the 30s. Could this be feasible to integrate into our future rail design?

[Urban Pioneer]

There is very little of the original streetcar system tracks left and exposed. Maybe a 100' or so of track is actually visible while much more of it is buried beneath layers of asphalt.

There are tracks such as "The Adventure Line" going up through the NE side and the track going out to Tinker Air Force Base that could be reutilized at fairly minimal cost to provide rapid streetcar access to those areas. The wheel base on the streetcar that we are discussing are not dissimilar and streetcars can run on most of those tracks. We cannot easily cross active freight rail lines however. The reality is that doing so is very expensive (positive train control system) has to be added and we would be at the mercy of freight train schedules.

That is why some of the plans revealed the other day by our RTA committee and the study that the MAPS 3 committee undertook for the NE line involve going around and over freight alignments. Once you are past those freight obstacles, bridge rehabilitation is the next greatest expense. The right of way and rehabilitation of track enables rapid corridors to be cost effectively installed as telephone poles can be used to string up wire (not unlike the original Interurban trains) and there is little if no utility relocation costs.

Not sure if I answered your questions and thoughts.

[Urban Pioneer]

I think the greatest streetcar opportunity within the city itself is the line up Classen to 63rd. Basically it sets up rapid streetcar service for NW Expressway. There are no freight alignments we can run parallel to or reclaim to the NW. NW Expressway is the ticket to reestablishing urbanity and pedestrian access over the greater part of the city.

Imagine Classen and NW expressway with sidewalks, crosswalks, trees, air conditioned stations in the median, and automated signalization.

That is the future.

[shawnw]

Imagine Classen and NW expressway with sidewalks, crosswalks, trees, air conditioned stations in the median, and automated signalization.

For NW Exp, it's very difficult to imagine, but very welcome. How far behind is the airport/FAA to getting in on the action? I'll take BRT I'm not picky.

[Teo9969]

No clue how I missed this…This homeowner at 46th and Classen is in shock at seeing this news…

[OKCisOK4me]

Yeah, I'd hope the thought of extending up NW Expressway would get the May Avenue interchange to be redone.

[Teo9969]

Seriously…I can't say just how huge this is, especially if they can get it to run late into the night: 1, Sunday to Thursday, and 3:30 Friday/Saturday. It opens up so much economic potential for so many people in this part of the city who can't afford a car.

As I just said, I live on NW 46th. On the east side of Western, there is a 7-11. I can't tell you many people I've seen walk by my house headed toward 7-11 that cross Classen to get to their homes to the west.

I'm fairly certain that a notable percentage of people in this part of town don't own cars, or certainly don't own 1 car to every 1 person. This extends the options of families who would like to own just 1 vehicle instead of 2 to be able to live within a reasonable commute to two of the major employment centers in the city (63rd/Western and Downtown).

And as UP said, it gets us thinking about how to include greater NW OKC in the plans, which is really where reinvigorating the city is going to happen the most.

Don't miss how much this is going to alleviate the Bus system as well. Instead of having the 005/007/008/010 go from Northwest Mid-City (think Founders area) all the way downtown, they can have a connection at Classen and Expressway (or 63rd/Western) and increase frequency in and around the neighborhood. Same thing for 013/014/040.

As said by JTF, this is even a bigger deal for Capitol Hill and the south side. Reinvigorating Capitol Hill alongside Wheeler Park will give OKC so many options for a variety of lifestyles with a variety of populace. I think by 2030, we'll be able to look at just about everything from I-240 up to Memorial, from I-44 to I-235 (and even sometimes I-35) and say: We have a complete, well integrated, high quality city in the heart of the US.

[Tier2City]

Oklahoma City advisory panel advances technical specifications for MAPS 3 streetcar | NewsOK.com

[David]

Some important action on this in today's City Council meeting:

Oklahoma City will solicit bids from streetcar manufacturers as the city moves forward on building a $130 million system in downtown.

The council voted Tuesday to open the bidding process to purchase at least five modern streetcars that will primarily operate on an overhead wire system, but will have the ability to run wirelessly at times.

See City asks for bids on streetcars for more.

[ljbab728]

Some important action on this in today's City Council meeting:

Any idea how Ed voted on this?

[Paseofreak]

Any idea how Ed voted on this?

Against. No idea why or if he had any qualifiers.

[JohnH_in_OKC]

I believe the Council voted 5-4 to approve the purchase of the streetcars. The dissenters were dissatisfied that the traditional streetcar was being forced on us. The dissenters hoped we might have chosen a wireless streetcar system. We'd be the first in the nation (except for cable car cities), but that was countered with it was too much risk. I would argue we'd be much more likely get a lot of federal money if we did build an (induction) wireless streetcar system.

Over 5 years ago (just before Maps 3 passed), I wrote a web page on promoting wireless streetcars: What I advocate for MAPS 3 implementation My wireless streetcar advocacy is in sections 9 through 11. If you click on the above link, there's a video of a demo system in Bordeaux, France.

I've always thought wired cantenary systems were UGLY.

[soonerguru]

I believe the Council voted 5-4 to approve the purchase of the streetcars. The dissenters were dissatisfied that the traditional streetcar was being forced on us. The dissenters hoped we might have chosen a wireless streetcar system. We'd be the first in the nation (except for cable car cities), but that was countered with it was too much risk. I would argue we'd be much more likely get a lot of federal money if we did build an (induction) wireless streetcar system.

Over 5 years ago (just before Maps 3 passed), I wrote a web page on promoting wireless streetcars: What I advocate for MAPS 3 implementation My wireless streetcar advocacy is in sections 9 through 11. If you click on the above link, there's a video of a demo system in Bordeaux, France.

I've always thought wired cantenary systems were UGLY.

This is not what I've heard happened, at all.

[JohnH_in_OKC]

This is not what I've heard happened, at all.

I watched the proceedings on City Channel 20. I'm not positive of the final vote, since I forgot to record it. But at least 2 councilmen voiced concern over the wired system and others were confused by the statements of city staff and the committee advocates of the cantenary based wired streetcars. I remember the "too much risk" statement being made. I think the wired streetcar committee advocates just want to push it forward. I was told that at least one streetcar committee member purchased property along the selected corridor. I'm sure the faster the streetcar system is built, the sooner his (or her) return-on-investment will be realized.

There's a link to the City Council video for Tuesday, August 26th, but the link goes to an essentially blank page. http://www.okc.gov/AgendaPub/meet.aspx . Maybe in the morning our city staff will fix the link and we all can review yesterday's city council meeting.

[Hutch]

I watched the proceedings on City Channel 20. I'm not positive of the final vote, since I forgot to record it. But at least 2 councilmen voiced concern over the wired system and others were confused by the statements of city staff and the committee advocates of the cantenary based wired streetcars. I remember the "too much risk" statement being made. I think the wired streetcar committee advocates just want to push it forward. I was told that at least one streetcar committee member purchased property along the selected corridor. I'm sure the faster the streetcar system is built, the sooner his (or her) return-on-investment will be realized.

There's a link to the City Council video for Tuesday, August 26th, but the link goes to an essentially blank page. http://www.okc.gov/AgendaPub/meet.aspx . Maybe in the morning our city staff will fix the link and we all can review yesterday's city council meeting.

The streetcar RFP and whitewater facility contract were on the consent docket, which was approved unanimously. The 5-4 vote you are referring to concerned the whitewater park contract, which was discussed immediately after the streetcar item and before the vote on the consent docket. While there were questions concerning the streetcar and the wired system, they were fully explained and answered by the consultant and there was no opposition expressed. The opposition that occurred was during the following discussion on the whitewater park contract, when a couple of Councilmembers objected to the proposed option 1, at which point Council took a vote on option 1, which passed 5-4. Immediately following that vote, the consent docket, including the streetcar RFP was approved 9-0.

[Laramie]

Start out with the cables. We can switch to a wireless system if the cable looks too antique. Let's just get a system started so we can take it from there.

When we expand the system with MAPS IV then hopefully a number of cities that have wireless will be able to give us feedback. Dallas is piloting their wireless system at this time.

“Our goal is to be 100 percent off-wire,” Rick Gustafson, an engineer with Jacobs Engineering Group Inc., told the streetcar subcommittee in April. “But it would be very risky for us to seek only a system that is 100 percent off-wire.”

Streetcar still on track | okgazette.com

Oklahoma City Streetcar: Prepare for a Battle | News OK

Wireless leads priorities list for MAPS 3 streetcar | News OK


Does anyone know anything about the 60 miles of track we once had? I was told that the tracks are still there; but paved over?

"Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.

[Urban Pioneer]

I was told that at least one streetcar committee member purchased property along the selected corridor. I'm sure the faster the streetcar system is built, the sooner his (or her) return-on-investment will be realized.

If that's true and they paid a reasonable market price for it, good for them! Sounds like the some people believe the streetcars will be wildly successful!

And no, its not an all a wired system. The discussion was to pursue hybrid streetcars that are both wired and wireless. We are prohibited by State law and City Charter from pursuing turn-key speculative wireless solutions that you think we should be pursuing instead.

Not trying to be an ***, but I don't tolerate conspiracy theories after knowing all these folks involved with building this project since it's inception.

[David]

I was told that at least one streetcar committee member purchased property along the selected corridor. I'm sure the faster the streetcar system is built, the sooner his (or her) return-on-investment will be realized.

Put up or shut up. Do you have a name for that streetcar committee member or are you just spreading unsourced gossip?

[Urban Pioneer]

It doesn't matter even if it were true though. There is nothing wrong with a volunteer buying property along the streetcar route because he or she thinks that it is a good investment. Now at the council level, it is considered inappropriate to vote on a route or infrastructure that would directly financially benefit a councillor. Which is why Meg Salyer recused herself and left the room during the streetcar route vote. And quite frankly, was the reason that particular vote was close. Anti-streetcar people against pro-streetcar people.

[CuatrodeMayo]

I rode the SLUT (South Lake Union Trolley) last week and didn't even notice the wires. It wasn't until after I read this thread that I was reminded of their existence. I think everyone will be surprised how unobtrusive they are.

[warreng88]

If you look at the lines for the streetcars in most cities, they are not as intrusive as people make them out to be. Look at the lines in DT Denver on Stout Street, DT Portland on NW 10th Street or Westlake Avenue in Seattle. There are light posts and two lines overhead. It is proven tech whereas the wireless is not.