Malaysian Airline Hit By Missile near Russian Border

[White Peacock]

Separatist leader posted this to facebook and then quickly deleted it:

I came here to post that exact bit of information.

[Dustin]

I love how he says "No civilians were harmed"

Umm... I think 283 were harmed, actually...

[silvergrove]

Also take what you will from this news with a grain of salt.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukra...pt-356545.html

[Jersey Boss]

And MSNBC, ever in the forefront of cable news, glowing like the metal on the edge of the knife, posts this breaking exclusive:




When you hire anchor babes with stripper names like Krystal Ball, ya get what ya get, and if that's her *real* name, her parents should be in jail for child abuse.

The adults are having a discussion as to what could be an act of war and you want to make fun of someones name as your contribution? Grow up.

[hoya]

I think it's okay for us to start calling them Soviets again.

Edit: Oops, didn't read full thread.

Edit again: Oh wait, the separatists are pro-Russian? Soviets it is.

[Cocaine]

Nah dude the separatist are oppressed Russians fighting off Nazi Ukrainian aggression. I saw it on RT so it must be true right.

[MadMonk]

To be fair, so do we:

Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As part of the settlement, the United States agreed to pay US$61.8 million, an average of $213,103 per passenger, in compensation to the families of the Iranian victims.

Russia will probably bill the Malaysians for the cost of the missile.

[mugofbeer]

Horrible situation but huge blame on the Malaysian airline flying over a war zone during a time the rebels have shot down Ukranian planes within the last 2 days.

[zookeeper]

The Rush To Judgment.

Russia, and/or the rebels, have no reason - whatsoever - for shooting down a Malaysian civilian passenger jet from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. None. But the Ukrainian government and the pro-EU forces have many reasons to stir up trouble to get the U.S., and others, more actively engaged. Have you seen what John McCain has said tonight?

Rightwing neocons want a war and the social leftists are anti-Anything Putin because of his traditional stand on gays and other things. No matter what, with no evidence on anything, many have different reasons for jumping on the Blame Putin train. The man has sky high approval ratings in his own country, stands up for what he believes in, doesn't mind talking about it, and unlike some leaders, doesn't back down for political reasons time and time again. President Putin is not the devil, no matter what little demons say.

None other than Forbes magazine named President Putin as the most powerful person in the world, knocking Obama from his perch. Domestically or internationally, look up leadership in the dictionary and Vladimir Putin is there. http://eng.kremlin.ru/news/22690

[hoya]

None other than Forbes magazine named President Putin as the most powerful person in the world, knocking Obama from his perch.

Dictators tend to be powerful.

[zookeeper]

Dictators tend to be powerful.

He was elected. Several times. Stood down when he couldn't run concurrently and served as Prime Minister under President Medvedev. He ran again under a platform of a massive jobs campaign and investment in the infrastructure and won big. He's not a "dictator." They have a parliamentary form of government. Of course, everything they do the headlines here scream, "PUTIN ORDERS BLAH BLAH BLAH." For many here, there is a (financial) NEED to restore the Cold War.

I've had people ask - "Are you a communist?" That's how clueless most people are. Putin is part of United Russia, a centrist political party that condemns communism and its crimes in its mission statement, calls for a return to free religious practice (which has happened in a BIG way), Putin is a Christian. Putin deplored communism and yes, was apparatchik in the KGB, and resigned on the second day of the attempted coup against Gorbachev, which the KGB was actively involved in. "I knew whose side I was on."

Dictator. No way. Strong leader with political skills of a Churchill, Roosevelt, LBJ? Yes.

[PennyQuilts]

The Rush To Judgment.

Russia, and/or the rebels, have no reason - whatsoever - for shooting down a Malaysian civilian passenger jet from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. None. But the Ukrainian government and the pro-EU forces have many reasons to stir up trouble to get the U.S., and others, more actively engaged. Have you seen what John McCain has said tonight?

Rightwing neocons want a war and the social leftists are anti-Anything Putin because of his traditional stand on gays and other things. No matter what, with no evidence on anything, many have different reasons for jumping on the Blame Putin train. The man has sky high approval ratings in his own country, stands up for what he believes in, doesn't mind talking about it, and unlike some leaders, doesn't back down for political reasons time and time again. President Putin is not the devil, no matter what little demons say.

None other than Forbes magazine named President Putin as the most powerful person in the world, knocking Obama from his perch. Domestically or internationally, look up leadership in the dictionary and Vladimir Putin is there. President of Russia

You are labeling groups and assigning motives to them - not helpful. That arms from Russia have been flooding into East Ukraine in recent weeks have been the subject of concern and the driving force behind sanctions. Obama was reportedly on the phone with Putin discussing the problem when this happened (or shortly thereafter - Putin reportedly told him about the disaster). The separatists shot down two other planes, this week. Your suggestion that this is just politically driven animus towards Putin ignores the facts on the ground.

Not yet verified is a recording of two Russians discussing the downing of the jetliner and the dawning realization that it was not a military plane. Most people assume this was a botched operation where the separatists either misidentified this plane or the missile locked onto it when it was shot at a military transport.

That Putin was elected and very popular with the Russian people doesn't mean he isn't a ruthless dictator, in fact. That you think how he came into power and that his popularity is high means he is a good guy begs the question. Know your Russian history? Might want to study up.

[PennyQuilts]

SBU intercepts phone conversations of separatists admitting downing a civilian plane (FULL TRANSCRIPT; VIDEO)

[Cid]

Whoops. Wrong.

[zookeeper]

You know, I'm not going to buy into this conspiracy theory - at least not yet. But the Russian government is apparently considering the possibility that President Putin was targeted for assassination. His plane was in the area at almost the same time of the shootdown. Twitter is all over this and asking if it was a CIA or Ukrainian government hit gone bad. What's sad, is these days, nothing would surprise me. Compare the planes:

[White Peacock]

You know, I'm not going to buy into this conspiracy theory - at least not yet. But the Russian government is apparently considering the possibility that President Putin was targeted for assassination. His plane was in the area at almost the same time of the shootdown. Twitter is all over this and asking if it was a CIA or Ukrainian government hit gone bad. What's sad, is these days, nothing would surprise me. Compare the planes:

Just ignore the aforementioned social media post announcing the successful takedown of a Ukrainian AN-26; not at all suspicious that it would be posted, then quickly deleted once the parties on the ground had the opportunity to investigate the wreckage. I'm sure that was a joint Ukraine Nazi/CIA hack as part of the false flag we've been looking for to take Putin down a peg.

[zookeeper]

I think my point is that these days - who the hell knows?

[BBatesokc]

The circumstantial evidence is overwhelming that the missile was the work of pro-Russian separatists. I'm personally fully confident that in the following days there will be specific and damning evidence to prove what most already know - separatist/Russian responsibility.

[zookeeper]

The circumstantial evidence is overwhelming that the missile was the work of pro-Russian separatists. I'm personally fully confident that in the following days there will be specific and damning evidence to prove what most already know - separatist/Russian responsibility.

And the motive is? There's not one for them. There is for the Ukrainian government as they desperately want more involvement from the U.S.... I see smoke and mirrors.
Don't trust U.S. media outlets either. These are the same networks that fail to report things of major significance all the time. They also all jumped on the Iraq War train after Colin Powell's U.N. address without any independent investigations. They'll jump on the anti-Putin train just as easily, and people will blindly follow their "reporting" or "circumstantial evidence" (selectively choosing the "evidence.")

[White Peacock]

And the motive is? There's not one for them. There is for the Ukrainian government as they desperately want more involvement from the U.S.... I see smoke and mirrors.
Don't trust U.S. media outlets either. These are the same networks that fail to report things of major significance all the time. They also all jumped on the Iraq War train after Colin Powell's U.N. address without any independent investigations. They'll jump on the anti-Putin train just as easily, and people will blindly follow their "reporting" or "circumstantial evidence" (selectively choosing the "evidence.")

I don't think anybody is assigning motive at all; seems pretty evident that the separatists thought they were shooting down yet another Ukrainian craft and screwed up.

And the evidence is pretty damning. It's the equivalent of running over a guy, stopping to take a picture of him under your tires, then posting it online with a caption "totally just killed a guy LOL", then deleting the post when you realize you've f*cked up.

They announced that they'd taken the plane down and took credit for it before getting a positive ID on the plane, and thought that if they deleted a post from their account, it would be deleted from the Universe. Luckily loads of people got screenshots before they removed it. I'm not sure why you get so defensive whenever Putin or Mother Russia are brought up.

[bradh]

Zookeeper are you Russian? You are awfully defensive in this thread.

[Jersey Boss]

You know, I'm not going to buy into this conspiracy theory - at least not yet. But the Russian government is apparently considering the possibility that President Putin was targeted for assassination. His plane was in the area at almost the same time of the shootdown. Twitter is all over this and asking if it was a CIA or Ukrainian government hit gone bad. What's sad, is these days, nothing would surprise me. Compare the planes:

While you make a case by comparing the planes in appearance do you actually think it possible that at 10,000 meters up, those who fired the SAM were sighting in by eyeball and using Kentucky windage? The motivation for the separatists was they thought they targeted a Ukrainian military transport which was quite a bit of motivation. I for one would be surprised if Putin would be so foolish to fly in a war zone. The statement by Putin in fact alluded to responsibility should go to whose territory the plane was over. So even Putin blames the "Peoples Republic of 'Separatists' "

[zookeeper]

While you make a case by comparing the planes in appearance do you actually think it possible that at 10,000 meters up, those who fired the SAM were sighting in by eyeball and using Kentucky windage? The motivation for the separatists was they thought they targeted a Ukrainian military transport which was quite a bit of motivation. I for one would be surprised if Putin would be so foolish to fly in a war zone. The statement by Putin in fact alluded to responsibility should go to whose territory the plane was over. So even Putin blames the "Peoples Republic of 'Separatists' "

I said I didn't believe that, but it was one scenario. These are strange times.

No, Putin blames the Ukranian government (the gangsters in control now). The so-called "separatists" (rebels) are pro-Russian. The government in power is Pro-EU. We're talking which market bloc they want to go with basically. There are also strong ethnic ties being ignored by those who want to force Ukraine into the EU camp.

As for the "People's Republic of 'Separatists'" quip, I'm not sure you understand the current situation. The insinuation is that Russia is like the Old Soviet Union? To the contrary, Russia has a democratic center-right government led by Putin and the United Russia party that believes in a market-based economy and has strongly and vocally opposed the old communist regimes of years past. That's why Gennady Zyugonov and the Communist Party run strong campaigns every election. (CPRF English Version) Vladimir Putin has made his views on communism very clear.

[zookeeper]

I don't think anybody is assigning motive at all; seems pretty evident that the separatists thought they were shooting down yet another Ukrainian craft and screwed up.

And the evidence is pretty damning. It's the equivalent of running over a guy, stopping to take a picture of him under your tires, then posting it online with a caption "totally just killed a guy LOL", then deleting the post when you realize you've f*cked up.

They announced that they'd taken the plane down and took credit for it before getting a positive ID on the plane, and thought that if they deleted a post from their account, it would be deleted from the Universe. Luckily loads of people got screenshots before they removed it. I'm not sure why you get so defensive whenever Putin or Mother Russia are brought up.

Quite possible, I'm reading all sides and that's certainly a possibility. I know it wouldn't have happened without the violence taking place, which wouldn't be taking place if the region wasn't de-stabilized by the Pro EU forces that took "control" recently. That's a long story in and of itself. But, you can guess where I stand on that issue.

This is not as simplistic as many here seem to think. It involves south and east Ukraine, the Crimean Peninsula, and a culture and people that go back - literally, a thousand years. Elections are not elections when the U.S. side loses, they're fair if the U.S. interests win.

It's complex. I am not trying to be defensive, I'm trying to offer the other side of this whole story and what led up to the shootdown. There are many scenarios and who knows? Maybe we can definitively know soon. But, I know that the rebels and/or Russian military did not intentionally shoot a passenger jet out of the sky.

[zookeeper]

Zookeeper are you Russian? You are awfully defensive in this thread.

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