Streetcar Route

[Urban Pioneer]

When I refer to "Phase 2", I am referring to an second major phase to the system funded through some other future initiative. "Phase 2" in MAPS 3 was a way to break the streetcar project up to allow better cash flow and programming for all of the MAPS 3 projects. At the time that this was approved, there were also hopes that we would be elligible for Federal Funds. We have since received significant Federal Funds for both the streetcar and the Intermodal Hub. "Phase 2" has turned out to be completely irrelevant in those matters.

Because of delays on the streetcar due to the wired versus wireless issue and better than expected sales tax revenue collections, I expect that the "Phase 2" in the MAPS 3 Implementation Plan will simply cease to exist. Those discussions are actually ramping up. Phase 1 is running into Phase 2 and available money is not a problem.

[David]

We've gotten federal funds for the streetcar? For some reason I thought we had only gotten any for the hub.

Also, am I reading you correctly in that once construction actually starts, it's possible we're going to see both phase 1 and phase 2 go in at the same time? That would be downright awesome, the synergy in building the park and running a streetcar line alongside it at the same time would be fantastic. Not to mention the benefits the system would get by running it down 4th.

[Urban Pioneer]

Yes. We have received several million dollars specifically for additional track, switching, and a stop in front of the Santa Fe Station. The Santa Fe Station project originally was specifically for the building complex. The combined application brought our initial $10 million MAPS 3 investment to nearly $29 million in combined reciprocal monies. The Feds put in about $14.5. So for Oklahoma City, that is a huge win in large part due to teh streetcar project alone.

And yes, you are reading me right. The project timelines are colliding and the sales tax collections have exceeded projections. That means that projects can move up the timeline slightly as there are funds available to complete them. I would also note that last year's tax collection surplus enabled the mayor to promote and pursue making up the sidewalk mileage deficit. We are very close to being able to complete that project with the number of miles promised. We should be able to completely finish it if there is another surplus and council decides to spend the monies again that way.

[David]

Oh that's right, the track in front of the hub.

[okclee]

It's to bad, because I really think that 13th street is better suited for the streetcar route. East to west could have it's own route from Classen over into the medical district.

[HangryHippo]

It's to bad, because I really think that 13th street is better suited for the streetcar route. East to west could have it's own route from Classen over into the medical district.

Agreed.

[Urban Pioneer]

If you mean between St. Anthony's and OUHSC, we cannot cross the street level BNSF freight railroad tracks that bifurcate 13th street down to 4th street. It is not allowed by BNSF nor the Federal Railroad Administration. We have to go under them at 4th street to get to OUHSC. Interestingly enough, there is not a ton of cross-traffic between St. Anthony's and OUHSC that came out through the surveys and modeling. If there were, an elevated people mover might be a better solution as it could simply go over the tracks. Obviously, it would be very expensive though.

I am not a big fan of going to OUHSC immediately. I would rather us go into the Plaza, up to OCU / Asian District, and connect with the 23rd street bus line first. The new Wheeler District is also an attractive additional reason to build the south Capitol Hill line along Walker down to 25th street. That is if we are using local funds such as from a MAPS 4.

If Federal Funds were involved, I think OUHSCC is probably where that money would be oriented and I am okay with that. The problem with OUHSC is that it's suburban design requires an extraordinary expense to adequately cover all of it. I wish it were built differently. We would have spent the entire MAPS 3 budget just to get over to it.

[Bullbear]

If you mean between St. Anthony's and OUHSC, we cannot cross the street level BNSF freight railroad tracks that bifurcate 13th street down to 4th street. It is not allowed by BNSF nor the Federal Railroad Administration. We have to go under them at 4th street to get to OUHSC. Interestingly enough, there is not a ton of cross-traffic between St. Anthony's and OUHSC that came out through the surveys and modeling. If there were, an elevated people mover might be a better solution as it could simply go over the tracks. Obviously, it would be very expensive though.

I am not a big fan of going to OUHSC immediately. I would rather us go into the Plaza, up to OCU / Asian District, and connect with the 23rd street bus line first. The new Wheeler District is also an attractive additional reason to build the south Capitol Hill line along Walker down to 25th street. That is if we are using local funds such as from a MAPS 4.

If Federal Funds were involved, I think OUHSCC is probably where that money would be oriented and I am okay with that. The problem with OUHSC is that it's suburban design requires an extraordinary expense to adequately cover all of it. I wish it were built differently. We would have spent the entire MAPS 3 budget just to get over to it.

Thank you for this information. I agree I would rather see it connect to Plaza, OCU/Asian district and uptown rather than OUHSC. especially if the cost is so much greater to get to OUHSC.

[Just the facts]

Phase 1...Phase 2... It might be easier to think of it as Phase 1A and Phase 1B, which are just timeline variations of Phase 1. Phase 2 would be a whole other plan and financing.

[warreng88]

In theory, the route would probably need to run east down NE 4th to Lincoln, up to 13th, east to Stonewall, south to 8th and back west to Lincoln, don't you think? Even if you went up to 13th, to Stonewall, then down to 10th, you could take that all the way across back to Broadway to meet up with the original line.

[Urban Pioneer]

Yes, that is exactly correct. Isn't it Stanton L Young that runs down the middle? I think that is what was proposed for the eastern side of the system. We also came up with a double track version instead of a loop that simply went across on NE 4th, up Lincoln to 8th, and up Stanton L Young terminating in the middle. Both the loop and the double track were conceived to eventually be extended to the State Capitol and to Lincoln.

[Urban Pioneer]

We need to release a new master plan. Especially since the Regional Transit folks have come out with their locally preferred alternative on how to extend MAPS 3 streetcar.

[warreng88]

Yes, that is exactly correct. Isn't it Stanton L Young that runs down the middle? I think that is what was proposed for the eastern side of the system. We also came up with a double track version instead of a loop that simply went across on NE 4th, up Lincoln to 8th, and up Stanton L Young terminating in the middle. Both the loop and the double track were conceived to eventually be extended to the State Capitol and to Lincoln.

Stanton L Young runs east-west between 13th and 10th. Stonewall runs north-south, two blocks west of Lottie. It isn't the eastern most street on the campus, but it is pretty damn close. Phillips might be a better N-S street because it runs right by the cancer center and the merical center at 10th, the Children's hospital north of Stanton L Young, OMRF at 13th and several parking garages. Plus the Transplant center and VA are about two blocks east and they are a couple of the largest employers in the area.

[Urban Pioneer]

It's Phillips. That was the street that was in the Locally Preferred Alternative to pursue Federal Funds.

[okclee]

If you mean between St. Anthony's and OUHSC, we cannot cross the street level BNSF freight railroad tracks that bifurcate 13th street down to 4th street. It is not allowed by BNSF nor the Federal Railroad Administration. We have to go under them at 4th street to get to OUHSC. Interestingly enough, there is not a ton of cross-traffic between St. Anthony's and OUHSC that came out through the surveys and modeling. If there were, an elevated people mover might be a better solution as it could simply go over the tracks. Obviously, it would be very expensive though.

I am not a big fan of going to OUHSC immediately. I would rather us go into the Plaza, up to OCU / Asian District, and connect with the 23rd street bus line first. The new Wheeler District is also an attractive additional reason to build the south Capitol Hill line along Walker down to 25th street. That is if we are using local funds such as from a MAPS 4.

If Federal Funds were involved, I think OUHSCC is probably where that money would be oriented and I am okay with that. The problem with OUHSC is that it's suburban design requires an extraordinary expense to adequately cover all of it. I wish it were built differently. We would have spent the entire MAPS 3 budget just to get over to it.

I'm not suggesting OUHSC anytime soon either, because I agree that the bang for the buck is better suited for Classen/Plaza/OCU/Asian and further north along Classen. But somewhere in the future we will need more railroad underpass-crossover points and 13th will probably be where it will be. That is where I believe that 13th would be a better choice for an east west future. I understand the budget and making every dime count, that is what makes this project go.

I look forward to seeing the streetcar. Can you give an update on the timetable for actual seeing tracks installed? Is this 5 years away or is it to soon to know? Thanks!

[warreng88]

It's Phillips. That was the street that was in the Locally Preferred Alternative to pursue Federal Funds.

I like that idea, although I will be curious to see how it would go under the pedestrian walkway north of Stanton L Young Blvd. It seems pretty low, although it could be the same height as the tunnels running under the rail rine from Dt to BT and I would be none the wiser.

[Urban Pioneer]

Our goal is to have the system completed before the next maps vote in December of 2017. I suspect we won't have the entire system done before then but the cars will be delivered and a good chunk of the system capable of being operated. So procurement of vehicles peaks in October and construction lets out the middle of next year after a GC is selected.

Regarding the 13th underpass, it is possible but it would require closing access to several of the business next to the tracks. It's possible that both could be accommodated if 13th is narrowed. Also, you have the I-235 Broadway Extension which is below grade at that point. So its not impossible, but it would take some very clever, if not expensive, engineering.

Warreng, regarding the pedestrian skywalk, I don't know. Your right about the lowered pantograph. It might resolve the issue. Or the crosswalk could be rebuilt. Not sure.

[warreng88]

Warreng, regarding the pedestrian skywalk, I don't know. Your right about the lowered pantograph. It might resolve the issue. Or the crosswalk could be rebuilt. Not sure.

Yeah, that is so far out that the whole building might be demoed and something else built there in that time, who knows? Thanks again for all your hard work on this and keep up the good work.

[Just the facts]

Until the powers that be in the HSC district decide they want to start using urban development practices then I say they get left out of any streetcar plans. Areas of town that are actively engaged in increasing density and walkability should get higher priority. Running mass transit to a low density suburban environment is a guaranteed loser.

[HOT ROD]

but on the other hand, having a streetcar infrastructure in the OHC would encourage the adoption of urban building concepts (you'd think) and could be the catalyst to urban redevelopment of the district.

I wouldn't term it as the OHC should be left out, rather - I'd "delay" the OHC until the dense residential and commercial districts of the 16th Street Plaza, OCU/Asian District, Uptown, and possibly Paseo in the North and perhaps C2S, Riverside, Capital Hill, Wheeler, and possibly Farmers Market/Stockyard's City in the South get tracked. That is unless federal/state funding became available and likely required federal/research institutions (like the very large VA center) to be connected.

Personally, I'd love to see Maps IV with a Streetcar component (with first priority along with a bus expansion) for Phase 2: Inner City Northside and Phase 3: Inner City Southside + better/expended downtown tracking (expending upon the Zeta route to provide cross tracking and add'l stops in downtown districts). Phase 4 could be the OHC and could also connect it to the Uptown phase via the capital on 23rd.

How totally cool will all of this be when the tracks are laid and this much of the central city is covered. ...

[shawnw]

but on the other hand, having a streetcar infrastructure in the OHC would encourage the adoption of urban building concepts (you'd think) and could be the catalyst to urban redevelopment of the district.

I'd like to think, but everybody involved in the district has known for some time that the HSC was "on the list" of next-phase expansion possibilities for steetcar, yet not a thing has changed about the mindset of new projects regarding the street, that I can tell.

[Just the facts]

I'd like to think, but everybody involved in the district has known for some time that the HSC was "on the list" of next-phase expansion possibilities for steetcar, yet not a thing has changed about the mindset of new projects regarding the street, that I can tell.

It's worse than that - they keep approving increasingly worse and worse site plans. They are moving in the wrong direction with increasing speed. The other areas of downtown aren't waiting for a streetcar to begin urbanization so why should HSC area get a free pass? Get with the program or get out of the way.

[hoya]

It needs to be made clear that the streetcar will be conditioned on the establishment of urban design rules. That's the carrot. No urban standards, no streetcar for you.

[catch22]

Exactly. ^

[Just the facts]

It needs to be made clear that the streetcar will be conditioned on the establishment of urban design rules. That's the carrot. No urban standards, no streetcar for you.

Yes.