What do you not like about OKC and what do you think could be better?

[PennyQuilts]

I wish people here (the majority populace) were more creative. They're just not. It impacts the design of buildings, the look of neighborhoods, the dated interiors of brand new houses, the way things are laid out, the type of businesses we have, the type of businesses we don't have, the types of job opportunities there are, the recreational activities available, the food, the types of hobbies people are into... Really it's a problem with tentacles into almost every facet of life here.

Also, this city is overrun with government workers. It feels about as bad as DC. I tend to think this and the creativity problem are inter related.

Lived here and DC. Omg, no comparison.

[PennyQuilts]

Extreme conservatism and anti-intellectualism go hand-in-hand. It also drives away the creative class leading to the issue with creativity somebody posted about above. That is why OKC is the way it is. Zookeeper is right, it's so incredibly difficult to find somebody in this town to have a conversation with about something other than sports, Christianity, conservative politics, etc. Nothing wrong with those things but I too have noticed how so many people here consider intellectual topics as being "snooty" or "elitist."

I am sure the "Grass is always greener" attitude shows up everywhere, especially among young people who want to get out and experience the world. However, OKC can be challenging if you're not a specific type of person. This town isn't for everyone and if somebody doesn't like it here, you can't immediately jump to the conclusion that it's a problem with that person.

My father could never be happy in a big city. He has lived in them but prefers small towns and rural areas. That is simply his preference. That's not my preference, but that's okay because we are all unique.

Conservatism is so often equated with anti intellectualism. It's a given - just ask them the ones opposed to them.

What I've found is that there is, indeed, many conservatives who see the world in simple terms. They don't make it complicated. They don't feel sadness at the lack of sidewalks or that liquor stores are closed on Sunday. If they notice such things at all, they make a Saturday liquor store trip and never look back. Most of them are darn solid on decision making.

The progressives are consumed with first world problems and seem genuinely miserable most of the time. They call it being intellectual but in the absence of true big intellect and a real joy in ideas, most can't pull it off.

Knowing how to actually think is far more important than what you think actually think about.

[PennyQuilts]

Until we get more progressive lawmakers, don't expect many changes to our freedom to purchase alcohol outside of strict hours set by the conservative government.

This ruins many lives.

[Bunty]

Your question is why the laws are the way they are. It's because the representatives of the people that elected them wrote the laws that way. Perhaps you should be directing your question to those legislators, not me. I'm just saying you can easily plan around those restrictions with not much effort. Like I said earlier it amazes me what some people fret about. Is it that difficult for you to plan around those restrictions knowing in full advance what they are? I've never in my life been out of alcohol when I've wanted it because of when liquor stores are required to be closed.

And when elected representatives at the State Capitol essentially give Oklahoma citizens the finger when it comes to doing something about abolishing prohibitive laws based upon nonsense, then it's up to the citizens to get back at the situation by organizing petition campaigns to abolish or reform prohibitive laws.

[PennyQuilts]

If I'm going to consume it on the 4th of July, or any Sunday anyway. Why do I have to buy it before?

What if I run out during my event, and need to send someone who is sober to go retrieve more Devil's Nectar from the Devil's Liquor cabinet?

I do not understand a mindset that is actually offended that you might have to think ahead. Yes, it can be a tiny bit annoying but for it to go to the top of the list of bad things about the city either says this is a fabulous town, or that some people are incapable of planning ahead. Really, why is this such a big deal?

[Bunty]

This ruins many lives.

What do you mean? It's like you fear the fewer prohibitive laws against alcohol, the more lives dead from alcoholism and drunk drivers?

[Bunty]

I do not understand a mindset that is actually offended that you might have to think ahead. Yes, it can be a tiny bit annoying but for it to go to the top of the list of bad things about the city either says this is a fabulous town, or that some people are incapable of planning ahead. Really, why is this such a big deal?

Some of us would like to have the same freedom and liberties found in other enlightened and civilized states. We are adults, not children. But I reckon some people fear too much that the more freedom and liberty the government grants, the more severe the aftershocks and social problems. Probably Missouri, with it's less restrictive laws against alcohol would tend to dispute that.

[PennyQuilts]

What do you mean? It's like you fear the fewer prohibitive laws against alcohol, the more lives dead from alcoholism and drunk drivers?

I don't fear anything of the kind. I just don't think it is a tragedy that liquor stores are closed on Sunday. People are smart. They really can overcome such primitive conditions. I don't care if they change the law but think it is kind of nice that liquor store workers can get the day off and not get competed out of business. I wish most places could give their workers at least one day on the weekend off to be with their families. People who work 9-5 often don't appreciate that our convenience comes at a price to the ones who have to provide it.

[gjl]

And when elected representatives at the State Capitol essentially give Oklahoma citizens the finger when it comes to doing something about abolishing prohibitive laws based upon nonsense, then it's up to the citizens to get back at the situation by organizing petition campaigns to abolish or reform prohibitive laws.

Maybe they are just giving the finger to the ones that didn't vote for them. Kind of like when Obama said "we won".

[bchris02]

Some of us would like to have the same freedom and liberties found in other enlightened and civilized states. We are adults, not children. But I reckon some people fear too much that the more freedom and liberty the government grants, the more severe the aftershocks and social problems. Probably Missouri, with it's less restrictive laws against alcohol would tend to dispute that.

Completely agree.

Extreme conservatives are all about enforcing their morality on the masses. They think alcohol consumption is sin so they will do everything they can to keep the laws as restrictive as they possibly can and derail any ballot measure that might liberalize the laws. They aren't really about small government. They are about BIG government controlling people's personal lives and decisions. THAT is what is wrong with this city and state.

[gjl]

Seeing the misery closed liquor stores on Sundays cause some people is actually kind of entertaining. Sorry, but it is.

[bradh]

Completely agree.

Extreme conservatives are all about enforcing their morality on the masses. They think alcohol consumption is sin so they will do everything they can to keep the laws as restrictive as they possibly can and derail any ballot measure that might liberalize the laws. They aren't really about small government. They are about BIG government controlling people's personal lives and decisions. THAT is what is wrong with this city and state.

Just stop, my entire friend group is conservative and we drink like fish, you are describing a small sect of the right

[bchris02]

Seeing the misery closed liquor stores on Sundays cause some people is actually kind of entertaining. Sorry, but it is.

I don't personally care that they are closed on Sundays. It would be nice if you could get real beer (chilled) and wine in the grocery store like a normal state. It would be great if you could buy it after 9PM. Keep the package stores closed on Sundays, give them their day off.

Switching gears but somewhat related is the fact that some brewers refuse to sell their product in Oklahoma because of the laws. On top of that, liquor laws are a huge contributor to, though certainly not the only reason, for why OKC has such terrible grocery stores.

Changing the laws would benefit the consumer in many more ways than people realize, plain and simple. Even people who don't drink would see benefit in terms of nicer and more numerous grocery stores.

[bchris02]

Just stop, my entire friend group is conservative and we drink like fish, you are describing a small sect of the right

I know, which is why I said extreme conservative. It's a small sect but it is over-represented in Oklahoma's legislature.

[Rover]

Completely agree.

Extreme conservatives are all about enforcing their morality on the masses. They think alcohol consumption is sin so they will do everything they can to keep the laws as restrictive as they possibly can and derail any ballot measure that might liberalize the laws. They aren't really about small government. They are about BIG government controlling people's personal lives and decisions. THAT is what is wrong with this city and state.

You have no clue regarding the history of Oklahoma's liquor laws, do you?

And, you do know that about 20 states still have dry and mixed counties, including your beloved North Carolina, right? You would probably be shocked to know about the states that have restrictive or "odd" liquor laws and that OK is certainly not alone.

[bchris02]

You have no clue regarding the history of Oklahoma's liquor laws, do you?

The liquor laws were born out of the prohibition movement which was widely supported when Oklahoma became a state. 3.2 beer is a leftover from that era as it was considered non-intoxicating so could be sold regardless of prohibition. Over the course of time from 1959 when prohibition was finally repealed in this state until today, there have been very few times when liquor law questions have made it to the ballot, but I believe every time it has, it has always passed.

I do believe however that liquor stores could once stay open later but hours were reduced to the current 9PM in hopes of cutting down on drunk driving. Was that change voted on by the people or was it passed by the legislature?

[Rover]

Sounds like a wikipedia response. Obvious and sounds like it should be right, but it isn't really the story.

[bchris02]

Sounds like a wikipedia response. Obvious and sounds like it should be right, but it isn't really the story.

I know state officials wanted to keep brewer-run saloons, which had a reputation in other states as being houses of vice and violence, out of Oklahoma. Because of that, the laws are on the books today that prevent brewers from selling house-crafted beers over 3.2 ABV on premises. Go go any restaurant in Oklahoma that brews its own beer and it has to be 3.2. If it's higher, they have to sell it to a distributor and then buy it back.

[PennyQuilts]

Completely agree.

Extreme conservatives are all about enforcing their morality on the masses. They think alcohol consumption is sin so they will do everything they can to keep the laws as restrictive as they possibly can and derail any ballot measure that might liberalize the laws. They aren't really about small government. They are about BIG government controlling people's personal lives and decisions. THAT is what is wrong with this city and state.

You are parroting stuff without anything to back it up. The whole alcohol is a sin is nuts, these days. Even the generation that came before mine was blowing off that mentality. I personally don't even know anyone who thinks like that, including my 90 year old father in law. I know they're out there but their influence is non existent.
Extreme conservatives used to be more about demanding a moral norm but in addition to changing attitudes than began forty years ago, the puritans have been shoved aside by progressives who are the ones with strong opinions about what's right and wrong, zero tolerance for traditional religion or lifestyle, zilch self introspection and a fixation on "big" issues and trivial, with little concern for real world moral quandries everyone faces on a daily basis. I wish they'd notice the many ways your average conservative Joe tries to be a good person, balance the things life throws at him, worries about his job, his kids, his neighbors, etc. instead, these feckless narratives paint them into puritans.

[bchris02]

You are parroting stuff without anything to back it up. The whole alcohol is a sin is nuts, these days. Even the generation that came before mine was blowing off that mentality. I personally don't even know anyone who thinks like that, including my 90 year old father in law. I know they're out there but their influence is non existent.

I had an entire response typed up, but I will simply say I was raised in the Independent Baptist movement. They are extremely legalistic, very political, and far more numerous than most people realize. There is one church in OKC that has probably 3,000 people on a given Sunday as well as operates its own school and Bible college. If you ask most people in this city if they've heard of that specific church they would probably say no.

[LandRunOkie]

bchris, they have a point that conservatives aren't anti-alcohol. A research study was released a few years ago that people who go to church are somewhere around 25% more likely to binge drink than those who don't. The problem plain and simple is the liquor lobby. Its a hugely profitable business and they can buy legislators very easily. Liquor taxes and markup are huge. A $20 handle of vodka costs the store well less than $10 to purchase. If you really want progress, start targeting these legislators voting down looser laws.

[bradh]

LandRunOkie is right, on both accounts. The lobby is strong

[PennyQuilts]

I had an entire response typed up, but I will simply say I was raised in the Independent Baptist movement. They are extremely legalistic, very political, and far more numerous than most people realize. There is one church in OKC that has probably 3,000 people on a given Sunday as well as operates its own school and Bible college. If you ask most people in this city if they've heard of that specific church they would probably say no.

And you think you can define the opinions of people in Oklahoma concerning alcohol sold on Sunday by its churches? In my world, churches are filled with all kinds of people and even back in the day when I attended a Baptist church (decades ago) this wasn't an issue even on the radar. Do you honestly think people sit around worried about the sin of selling alcohol on Sunday? If they could pass liquor by the drink decades ago - with the fear of drunks on the road after getting liquored up at the local Hairy Bears and running over pedestrians - why in the world do you think people decades later would be so conservative that they feared Sunday liquor stores on account of sin?

[Urbanized]

I would strongly caution against doing a Google image search for "Hairy Bears."

[Rover]

I know state officials wanted to keep brewer-run saloons, which had a reputation in other states as being houses of vice and violence, out of Oklahoma. Because of that, the laws are on the books today that prevent brewers from selling house-crafted beers over 3.2 ABV on premises. Go go any restaurant in Oklahoma that brews its own beer and it has to be 3.2. If it's higher, they have to sell it to a distributor and then buy it back.

You have some "what's" identified, but not the "why's", and so far haven't identified the right "who's". Knowing the sequences isn't the same as knowing why things happened, who was and is behind it, and how they have stayed in control.

As the say, follow the money. It's more about the money than the morals.