Moore cops abuse......

[BBatesokc]

This thread is really interesting, thanks guys especially nice to hear the views of a lawyer and an officer. So I have two more probably dumb questions. The first one is, what does our state define as a 'law enforcement officer?' Would the two guys involved in the Moore incident from the other agency, I think they were game wardens or something like that, would they be considered officers under the law?

The second question is something that Brian brought up... "citizens arrests." I could have sworn a lawyer friend once told me that there was no such thing codified in our law and that it was basically a TV drama thing. Is that not the case? Can a non-LEO person "detain" another private citizen? I assume if they can and they are wrong, or don't have iron-clad evidence, they are in a position of extreme liability.

And yep, I understand that in the Moore scenario several on-duty officers arrived and responded at the scene. My question was more hypothetical.

Citizen's arrest is very real and covered under Oklahoma law. That said, there really is no black and white "citizen's arrest procedure." Its a huge grey area within the law. Want to see citizen's arrest pushed to extremes you had no idea existed ... ride along with bounty hunters (which I've done many times). In all reality, citizens have more (or broader) arrest powers than police in many circumstances. The law says when a citizen can (and in some case is obligated to) arrest someone. The problem is, the guidelines to do so don't really exist and citizens certainly do not have any training or policies to follow like police do.

Can a non-LEO person "detain" another private citizen?

Absolutely. You just open yourself up to civil and possible criminal liability.

[kelroy55]

Absolutely. You just open yourself up to civil and possible criminal liability.

and the possibility of a punch to the face.

[BBatesokc]

and the possibility of a punch to the face.

No different than what happens to police on occasion (or worse).

Personally, if someone else's actions rise to the point I think I need to perform a citizen's arrest, then I really don't concern myself with the possibility of a punch to the face.

[CuatrodeMayo]

This thread just got really educational.

[gjl]

[Dennis Heaton]

Thanks gjl! LOL!!!

[Mel]

Not a surprise but the DA will not hassle the cops that killed that guy outside Warren Theatre. Folks need to learn you just don't go out in public so messed up that fighting the police seems like a good idea. They can radio for backup, you can't.

[Plutonic Panda]

Not a surprise but the DA will not hassle the cops that killed that guy outside Warren Theatre. Folks need to learn you just don't go out in public so messed up that fighting the police seems like a good idea. They can radio for backup, you can't.

man that's kind of a sh&tty view. So just because they back-up we should act like cowards? I've confronted the police many times simply because I treat people like they treat me.

If it were me, I would've had those police officers involved put to death, but this wonderful society we have won't even fire them. Have to love it.

[Mel]

I am talking about physically confronting them. I am not a wilting flower and I will "discuss" with an officer why he is messing with me and what my rights are. You start scuffling with one and that is just plain foolishness.

[kelroy55]

I am talking about physically confronting them. I am not a wilting flower and I will "discuss" with an officer why he is messing with me and what my rights are. You start scuffling with one and that is just plain foolishness.

It's like taking a pocket knife to a fight where the other guy has a gun, stun gun, mace and a whole lot of friends.

[RadicalModerate]

man that's kind of a sh&tty view. So just because they back-up we should act like cowards? I've confronted the police many times simply because I treat people like they treat me.

If it were me, I would've had those police officers involved put to death, but this wonderful society we have won't even fire them. Have to love it.

Is it really a sh&tty view? Or is is more of the pragmaTic variety?
Seriously: In real life you are dealing with people who chose to get paid to "enforce the law."
Only a fool would DIRECTLY challenge that product of Authority.
Plus they are accountable for the results.
And responsible for the fallout.

Even when I was a young, stupid, loud-mouthed imbicile--relatively speaking--I knew enough not to
"challenge" the "role" of the cop on the street. geez.

If the cop is older than you, say Sir.
If he's a kid say Officer.

Follow that with, "Yes" and/or a straight answer to his or her questions.
Otherwise this sort of nonsense ensues.
Trust me on this.

Unless, of course, you are actually guilty of a crime.
In that case, say: Officer/Sir, I have nothing to say. where's my lawyer?

[Plutonic Panda]

I am talking about physically confronting them. I am not a wilting flower and I will "discuss" with an officer why he is messing with me and what my rights are. You start scuffling with one and that is just plain foolishness.

We'll see where that logic gets us than. I'm getting very a cold heart towards law enforcement so it's probably best to stay out of the threads about them seeing how some posters feel about it.

I will say this, I will not let people shove me around. Period.

To, RM, I used to be respectful and call police officers "sir"- hell will freeze over before that happens again. Let me say, my feelings towards the leo's have nothing to do with this incident nor the speeding tickets I have gotten. I have had and seen others have issues since this year that are nearly impossible to believe.

This will be my last post in this thread, so see ya.

[Mel]

I didn't mean to upset anybody. For me saying "Sir" is cheaper than a ticket. I learned to say it without really meaning it in the Military.

[Plutonic Panda]

I didn't mean to upset anybody. For me saying "Sir" is cheaper than a ticket. I learned to say it without really meaning it in the Military.

You didn't upset me at all. I've just had some very displeasure experiences with the wonderful loes here in Edmond recently. I am not pleased

[zookeeper]

I honestly thought Mashburn would take action against one or more of the officers involved. So, let's hear from: USDOJ: US Attorney's Office - Western District of Oklahoma

[BBatesokc]

This was the right decision and really the only one the DA could make in light of the actual evidence (not emotions).

FYI Plutonic Panda - showing cops respect for their authority and obeying their commands is a far cry from 'acting like cowards.'

That doesn't mean you have to respect them as individuals or an organization. I've met very few cops I respect (or even think are decent human beings), but I only resist their commands to a point and only when I have a camera rolling as proof of my actions.

The only way you win against a cop is to covertly record their actions, obey ALL laws yourself and then take it up with police administration later with your evidence. Otherwise, you're screwed!

[Chadanth]

This was the right decision and really the only one the DA could make in light of the actual evidence (not emotions).

FYI Plutonic Panda - showing cops respect for their authority and obeying their commands is a far cry from 'acting like cowards.'

That doesn't mean you have to respect them as individuals or an organization. I've met very few cops I respect (or even think are decent human beings), but I only resist their commands to a point and only when I have a camera rolling as proof of my actions.

The only way you win against a cop is to covertly record their actions, obey ALL laws yourself and then take it up with police administration later with your evidence. Otherwise, you're screwed!

Comply at the interaction and sue later. When departments go broke defending themselves in court, they might retrain their staff. It's always better to be alive.

[Mel]

You didn't upset me at all. I've just had some very displeasure experiences with the wonderful loes here in Edmond recently. I am not pleased

I understand where you're coming from.

[soonerguru]

I guess I don't know all of the facts here, and I suspect BBates knows what he is talking about, but the cops at the very least overreacted in this situation. One wonders if there was a language barrier. Either way, the message is sent: cops can pretty much get away with anything when it comes to the use of force.

[BBatesokc]

I guess I don't know all of the facts here, and I suspect BBates knows what he is talking about, but the cops at the very least overreacted in this situation. One wonders if there was a language barrier. Either way, the message is sent: cops can pretty much get away with anything when it comes to the use of force.

It simply came down to the suspect was legally placed into investigative detention, he squared off with the officers and refused to comply with their legal commands. The officers then tried to restrain the suspect and used perfectly legal techniques to do so. Just so happened the suspect was not in good health.

Had he simply contained his emotions and his anger and complied with their justifiable requests, he would still be alive.

I can only imagine the grief the daughter must be feeling (the spark that ignited the event).

[kevinpate]

I won't deny this matter might have been handled differently.
Tthat is a far cry however from determining the way it was handled would warrant charges.

And PluPan, whatever your issues with leos in general, wishing these officers dead, when those who have looked more closely than you don't even see a basis to bring a charge against any one of them, well, that's just special, though not in a happy party day kind of way.

Whatever some folks have convinced themselves happened, it would appear that this, wasn't that, and apparently wasn't even close to being that.

[soonerguru]

It simply came down to the suspect was legally placed into investigative detention, he squared off with the officers and refused to comply with their legal commands. The officers then tried to restrain the suspect and used perfectly legal techniques to do so. Just so happened the suspect was not in good health.

Had he simply contained his emotions and his anger and complied with their justifiable requests, he would still be alive.

I can only imagine the grief the daughter must be feeling (the spark that ignited the event).

Cops can get away with force in just about any circumstance. What about them confiscating the phone and deleting the video; is my memory failing me or did that happen? If that were you or me wouldn't we be charged for obstruction of justice / destroying evidence?

[Cocaine]

I don't think they deleted the video but I'm not sure. So what was he being detained for again? Was he under arrest when wrestled him to the ground?

[Urbanized]

Police were summoned because of a domestic battery report. The deceased's wife reportedly struck their daughter in the face. When off-duty officers working security responded to investigate (they reportedly did not know at the time who struck who; only that there was an alleged domestic battery), the deceased individual reportedly became combative and belligerent. When they attempted to subdue him he became physically distressed and eventually succumbed to his physical ailments. At least, this is how things were reported in the more detailed and less sensational media accounts.

[soonerguru]

Urbanized, the "combative" nature of the deceased was related to his refusal to provide ID, no?