Talbots looking at Penn Square

[Patrick]

Rumor has it that Talbots is considering a move to Penn Square. Problem is, Penn Square doesn't have any space available for them at the current time. But, that doesn't seem to be a problem, as Talbots is still under a 5 year contract with 50 Penn Place. Anyways, not sure if Talbots will stick with it and move across the street, but I wouldn't be surprised if they do that in the near future. Every store that's moved to Penn Square away from 50 Penn Place has seen huge increases in profits. Williams-Sonoma and Ann Taylor are good examples. If Talbots decides to leave 50 Penn Place, what would that mean for 50 Penn? Well, that pretty much spells the death of 50 Penn Place, IMHO. Talbots is pretty much the anchor of the retail sector at 50 Penn Place. If Talbots moves in the near future, I wouldn't be surprised to see Harolds move with them.

There is only really one space open right now that Tablots might consider.....2nd floor on the Foleys wing....Penn Square has been using this for short term leasing and seasonal shops. All Wireless is also on a short term lease, thus this area could be leased all at once. Also, spaces currently leased by Julyani and th Zoo store are temporary spaces. Other than that, the mall is full....all other spaces are long term leases. That's not too shabby, just having 3 short term leases.

By the way, OU/OSU A Store Divided is on a short term lease, but White House/Black Market has already leased that space long term along with a portion of the old Express space next to Jos A Bank...they plan to open Spring of 2005. This will be another upscale store to the Penn Square market.

[Luke]

There is a vacancy on the second floor by Express and Vanity. Do you know what that will be? It's been vacant for awhile.

[HOT ROD]

I hope this does not happen.

I really wish 50 Penn would develop into our own Galleria. It has the makings of one if the owners would get a vision and remodel the place.

If this would occur, it would create a really nice, upscale retail district - PENN (that would probably be the largest in the state - if it isnt already).

[Luke]

I've thought (and maybe posted it before) of a cool idea...

What if they built a long indoor sky bridge across NW Expressway from Penn Square Mall to 50 Penn Place. The walkway could have one of those airport style conveyer belts to get people from side to side. It would help both places I think, but it would help 50 Penn more.

Also, they could put retail kiosks in there too.

PS: Patrick, what about that place upstairs next to Express and Vanity? Did you find out anything? Thanks.

[Patrick]

Hey Luke, Pac Sun is moving up there, into a larger space. They also like being near Hollister. The current Pac Sun space next to Motherhood Maternity will be up for lease.

Also, in regards to your idea of connecting 50 Penn Place and Penn Square....I've mentioned it to the mall manager and Simon Property Group before. They actually looked into it after I mentioned it. I had mentioned expanding a wing out from the front of Penn Square (at the main mall entrance), and stretching it over NW Expressway to connect with 50 Penn Place.
Sure, it would be nice, but it would be extremely costly. Anytime you build a large space up in the air like that it's going to cost. Unfortunately, for Simon Property Group, it simply wasn't feasible financially. It would probably just be a loss over the long term. Simply connecting the two with a conveyer belt without stores in between wouldn't really solve our purpose....it would still give the appearance that the two centers were separate. To make them feel like one center, you'd have to connect them with a wing of stores. Obviously, as I've already mentioned, that would be quite costly.

It's kind of like the cost difference between building structured parking and surface parking.

Simon probably would've considered it more, if there would've been a greater return on the investment.

[Luke]

Wow, in a way I'm surprised they even considered it... But now that I know they have, I want them to think about it, rework it and make it work.

Penn Square Mall is the best hope for snagging the biggest high end names. But, it's full. Expanding the mall would be a great option. But any expansion they do would HAVE to include more parking garages. That place is packed, even during non-holidays...

Patrick, aside from the skyway idea, have they mentioned about just building a new wing into the parking lot without attaching it to 50 Penn? I mean, it would be less costly than a skyway yet add more valuable leasing area. Again, taking up parking space to expand the mall would mean they would have to build a garage, but why not? I'll bet they'd still have a waiting list, even after expansion.

One last idea is to do what they did before... add another story. Yeah, it would be exensive...but more expensive things have been done.

So, is there anything on the table at all when it comes to Penn Square Mall expansion?

[Patrick]

Seems like anyway you turn would be expensive. Unfortunately, Penn Square has just run out of space, for the most part. It doesn't have the luxury Quail Springs does, having a lot of open land around it. IMHO, I kind of wish Penn Square would've purchased the old Belle Isle Power Plant, back when it was for sale. They could've expanded the mall to the east.

Anyways, anyway you turn now will take up a big chunk of parking. Problem with a new wing out the the south is you'd basically have no parking in the front of the mall. People fight over those front parking places now as it is.
I guess the Galleria in Dallas doesn't have much surface parking, so it's an option. Again, mall mangement has to consider the return on such a project.

Unfortunately, the structure of Penn Square itself won't accomodate a 3rd floor.

The only thing in the works right now is to lease some of the surrounding pad space to restaurants. There are very few restaruants on the property, so this will add some diversity to the property. I've noticed Quail Springs is doing the same with much of the surrounding space they own. TGI Friday's is one example.

I also spoke with Quail Springs Mall management about expansion. They said that they do have the land for expansion, but there's really no way to expand the mall anymore. They said they really pulled some strings locating the theater right out in the front, in place of where the main entrance used to be. They've said, unfortunately, it's made parking on the south side worse as well. I asked if they'd consider a parking garage...they said they wouldn't due to costs.

[mranderson]

They could go to Crossroads.

[Patrick]

Unfortunately, the thing holding Crossroads back is pure mismangement by Macerich Property Group, and the demographics surrounding the mall. Seems like the location on 2 major interstates should make up for the demographics to some extent.

[Luke]

What if a new mall was built?

Aren't southwest OKC, West Moore and northwest Norman higher income areas? In fact, isn't one of the zip codes down there the wealthiest one in the metro? Rivendell maybe? Penn Square isn't exactly a convenient drive (what, 20 minutes or so?) and forget about Quail Springs. I know Odom is a big time upscale developer out there. Maybe he could do something like that. Looking at a map, I-44 and SW 119th might be a general area to build a new upscale mall.

Of course, I'd bet there's even a market for a nice mall out further north of Quail Springs Mall in West Edmond/far north OKC off of Penn and Covell or Coffee Creek or even Waterloo maybe.

[mranderson]

What if a new mall was built?

Aren't southwest OKC, West Moore and northwest Norman higher income areas? In fact, isn't one of the zip codes down there the wealthiest one in the metro? Rivendell maybe? Penn Square isn't exactly a convenient drive (what, 20 minutes or so?) and forget about Quail Springs. I know Odom is a big time upscale developer out there. Maybe he could do something like that. Looking at a map, I-44 and SW 119th might be a general area to build a new upscale mall.

Of course, I'd bet there's even a market for a nice mall out further north of Quail Springs Mall in West Edmond/far north OKC off of Penn and Covell or Coffee Creek or even Waterloo maybe.

Yes. the 73170 zip code is the third most wealthy zip code in Oklahoma. Mine, 73159 is not far behind.

Can south Oklahoma City support an upscale mall? Yes. Then we can close gangbanger central (Crossroads).

[Luke]

mranderson, do you know where I can see the wealthiest zip code listings for the state and then particularly OKC metro? There are some neighborhoods that I am especilly curious about.

[Patrick]

Unfortunately, the city of Edmond would never allow a mall to be built. The residents would complain forever.

Unfortunately, as we all know, malls are on the way out. The last mall was built like 3 or 4 years ago, if my recollection serves me correctly. Maybe SW OKC should consider a really nice shopping village like Utica Square.

[mranderson]

mranderson, do you know where I can see the wealthiest zip code listings for the state and then particularly OKC metro? There are some neighborhoods that I am especilly curious about.

I am not sure where they are now. My info is from an article in the Oklahoman from about five years ago. You might try their archives.

[Luke]

I dunno if traditional malls are on the way out. The Shops at Willow Bend in Plano wasn't built too long ago. Shopping villages are basically outdoor malls and those are trendy now. I believe that either an outdoor shopping village or a traditional mall would do very well in SW OKC or Edmond/North OKC.

[HOT ROD]

SW OKC needs upscale retail!

[Patrick]

I agree.....whether it be an upscale mall maybe like Northpark, or a shoppnig village, maybe like Spring Creek Plaza in Edmond. Seems like Spring Creek Plaza serves the Edmond market very well. I imagine that Spring Creek Village will also be a hit! It looks like it's gonig to be a pretty large development. If you haven't been up to Edmond lately, you might check out the NW corner of 15th and Bryant. The Spring Creek Village development site covers a lot of land facing 15th St.

[kielaaron]

Malls are totally done for in the OKC metro area for the time being... with all of the new strips all over the area there's no need. Yukon has its new Lowe's/Chili's area, Moore got their Kohl's/Gordman's complex. OKC actually has an amazing phenomenon in the fact that its three significant malls are so filled to capacity. Go to Enid and look at the miserably empty 500,000 sf Oakwood Mall and realize what zealous mall-building will earn you!

However, just in case anyone's interested... I have reason to believe that three new Old Navy's will appear in the OKC metro by end of 2006. There are five areas under consideration from what I understand. Just what we need, I'm sure!!

I personally won't be happy until we get respectable retail sources in the downtown OKC area; what a significant sign of growth.

[Luke]

The "Renaissance Galleria" is what we should push for. A retail center just south of the new Galleria garage.

[metro]

keilaaron, can you shed some light on possible new old navy's? I know its got to be inevitable for one to locate to the west okc/ yukon area

[Luke]

There going to put one on 240 where they're tearing down that wal-mart and mardel.

I would bet that the huge retail complex that Midwest City is building across from Tinker on SE 29th will be where another one goes.

And metro's right, if Yukon or West OKC doesn't have one yet, that could be another area.

[metro]

well im almost positive there is one in the westgate marketplace but I could be wrong. Even if there is, Yukon or furter north part of west OKC could support one towards 39th and the turnpike area or at Garth Brooks Plaza.

[mranderson]

There going to put one on 240 where they're tearing down that wal-mart and mardel.

I would bet that the huge retail complex that Midwest City is building across from Tinker on SE 29th will be where another one goes.

And metro's right, if Yukon or West OKC doesn't have one yet, that could be another area.

Just to clarify. When you say "one," are you saying South Oklahoma City is getting a Talbot's, or are you refering to the new strip center?

[Luke]

I'm referring to Old Navy. Sorry for the confusion.

[metro]

im sure she was talking about Old Navy since the previous question had asked about oldnavy locations