Bricktown Shakeup

[Rover]

This thread is better than watching a bad made for tv movie. Paranoia, naivety, sex and violence. It has everything but a good plot.

[bchris02]

Most young professionals in the 18-34 crowd and even a lot of college students don't enjoy going to clubs (or at least the type of clubs we have in Bricktown) that much and prefer the type of bars and music venues that urbanized mentioned. The lack of them and especially the lack of a cluster of them (even though this is improving with the plaza, western, etc) is part of the reason our nightlife scene, especially Bricktown, gets gets a bad rap at times. We do need Bricktown to be filled with more of that type of venue similar to the way Brady and blue dome in Tulsa have developed. I, and literally everyone I know that lives in OKC or Oklahoma in general, would prefer that the majority of the trashy, douchie, graphic T type clubs close or be relocated as Bricktown becomes a true mixed use district; I don't know anyone that was disappointed that city walk closed. We might visit one of the decent Bricktown clubs once or twice a year but spend the majority of nights at bars. We don't need a full block of trashy clubs like we have on Sheridan right now (excluding one15). The street is completely dead 7 days a week during the day and 4-5 days a week at night. One or two of those clubs could definitely coexist with other venues in Bricktown, but shouldn't be on a primary street or the canal or in a cluster anywhere. Check out the police presence that they feel is necessary outside of Albee and Candy at around 1:30 every Friday and Saturday, it's very similar to the sketchiest part of lodo in Denver. I do think clubs help provide a variety of options and have a place in Bricktown similar to how a few coexist with the bars on 6th Street in Austin, but they shouldn't be the main focus of the district anymore. They are destroying the street life there night and day during the week. Any that remain should double as restaurants during the day.


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Can't say I disagree with any of this. A few upscale nightclubs like One15 (which unfortunately will soon be shut down by Tom Ward) will be good for the district. The rest should be bars and live music venues.

I'm going to use the example of Charlotte here. Charlotte has very few dance clubs uptown but the ones they do have are very nice, have strict dress codes, and don't cause a lot of problems.

[Urbanized]

Great post, PhiAlpha. I appreciate the Millennial backup. I don't think the "Millennials" in Affliction gear or the ones sagging down the sidewalk in wifebeaters are the ones we're dying to keep in town and keep stimulated, anyway.

[Urbanized]

...As for your snide, condescending remarks? I know you think you're some urban connoisseur, and you might be, but you obviously don't know the fabric and thinking of the 18-34 crowd. Also, known as the millennials. Everyone of the Thunder players for that age range, outside of Nick Collison and Derek Fisher.

You don't know **** about me, Junior. And you also don't know who I do or do not hang out with. I know VERY WELL that Thunder players like to go out. I know WHERE they go out. I know who they go out with. I'll take my chances on the Thunder fielding a competitive team even if the bulk of the dance club scene moves to a place other than Bricktown. Your lack of perspective is astounding.

[PhiAlpha]

Great post, PhiAlpha. I appreciate the Millennial backup. I don't think the "Millennials" in Affliction gear or the ones sagging down the sidewalk in wifebeaters are the ones we're dying to keep in town and keep stimulated, anyway.

No problem, it's been a discussion topic in my circle for a long time and a major reason for never having much interest in leaving Norman during college. We definitely don't mind clubs as they provide a nice alternative to bars and some diversity to the nightlife scene, but not the quantity or overall quality of the options in Bricktown.


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[PhiAlpha]

This thread is better than watching a bad made for tv movie. Paranoia, naivety, sex and violence. It has everything but a good plot.

Don't forget the sex SHOPS. With the ever growing number of apartments in Bricktown and the surrounding area, the opportunities are abundant.


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[Urbanized]

^^^^^^^

THAT is what perspective looks like. And also a compelling case that low-rent clubs aren't the draw they are being made out to be and in fact actually may serve as a deterrent, even to a college-age (and more forgiving) audience.

[PhiAlpha]

Can't say I disagree with any of this. A few upscale nightclubs like One15 (which unfortunately will soon be shut down by Tom Ward) will be good for the district. The rest should be bars and live music venues.

I'm going to use the example of Charlotte here. Charlotte has very few dance clubs uptown but the ones they do have are very nice, have strict dress codes, and don't cause a lot of problems.

Your using Charlotte as an example?!?!?!?!? Haha, but I agree as the residential base grows in the area, I think a few upscale or at least one15 level clubs could do very well with a mix of bars. Hopefully that's where we're heading.


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[bchris02]

^^^^^^^

THAT is what perspective looks like. And also a compelling case that low-rent clubs aren't the draw they are being made out to be and in fact actually may serve as a deterrent, even to a college-age (and more forgiving) audience.

Who has been arguing for low-rent clubs? I don't see anybody here arguing that trashy clubs with penny beer are good for Bricktown. I would like to see clubs in OKC like this one in Charlotte.

[PhiAlpha]

Who has been arguing for low-rent clubs? I don't see anybody here arguing that trashy clubs with penny beer are good for Bricktown. I would like to see clubs in OKC like this one in Charlotte.

Everyone arguing for clubs in Bricktown seems to be arguing that all of them should remain there. Or at least that city walk shouldn't have closed. I would trade every club in Bricktown for one or two restaurant by day, upscale or at least decent club by night.


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[adaniel]

Great post, PhiAlpha. I appreciate the Millennial backup. I don't think the "Millennials" in Affliction gear or the ones sagging down the sidewalk in wifebeaters are the ones we're dying to keep in town and keep stimulated, anyway.

Well, I am also a millennial. And I have slowly grown out of that "scene"...I rarely go to clubs even when I vacation in other cities. With that in mind, I enjoyed them at a certain point in my life and others feel as well. Social, RokBar, Skyy, and CityWalk did not close due to lack of business. My point being those places add to the diversity of the place. I mean, no offense, but who are you to say what attracts young professionals we are "dying to keep in town?" I know plenty of young professional people who enjoy going out to nightclubs. And when I had taken others from much larger cities to Bricktown they were often surprised at the vitality of OKC's nightlife scene.

I tend agree with another poster that there is a strain of prudish thought that is thankfully on the decline in OKC but tends to rear its head when discussions like these come up. "Oh, we must do things to keep those people away" is usually how the conversation goes. As far as the people in wife beaters and baggy clothes, I propose a lot of those people aren't going in any bar or club, but rather just "walking around." I fail to see how getting rid of clubs will suddenly get rid of that crowd.

This whole conversation would probably not be happening if there were concrete plans for what would be coming to Bricktown, which IMO is probably part of a larger issue with how BT has been run. So instead we are talking in generalities about what we think certain people will and won't like. My problem with this is it is a very slippery slope to start excluding whole groups and demographics from what is the premier entertainment districts in the state based on anecdotal evidence, innuendo, and stereotypes.

I am probably in complete "train of thought mode" here, but one of the reason's taxpayer funded initiatives have been supported much better in OKC compared to Tulsa is the developments here are viewed as far more inclusive and open to everyone compared to T-town. I hate to say this, but when I went to the Brady District, I enjoyed myself. But that area was missing...something. I felt the planners specifically said, we want a district that is catered to liberal white Gen-Yers with masters degrees LOL. And that's exactly what they got. Don't get me wrong, I probably fit better in that crowd, but what about the 90% of people who do not? Just my 0.02.

[coov23]

Great post, PhiAlpha. I appreciate the Millennial backup. I don't think the "Millennials" in Affliction gear or the ones sagging down the sidewalk in wifebeaters are the ones we're dying to keep in town and keep stimulated, anyway.

I think I've stated upscale bars. Never said the trashy social type clubs should stay. Almost think you're taking a jab at me by saying that, though.

[Urbanized]

Taking a jab at you? Get over yourself.

[coov23]

Well, I am also a millennial. And I have slowly grown out of that "scene"...I rarely go to clubs even when I vacation in other cities. With that in mind, I enjoyed them at a certain point in my life and others feel as well. Social, RokBar, Skyy, and CityWalk did not close due to lack of business. My point being those places add to the diversity of the place. I mean, no offense, but who are you to say what attracts young professionals we are "dying to keep in town?" I know plenty of young professional people who enjoy going out to nightclubs. And when I had taken others from much larger cities to Bricktown they were often surprised at the vitality of OKC's nightlife scene.

I tend agree with another poster that there is a strain of prudish thought that is thankfully on the decline in OKC but tends to rear its head when discussions like these come up. "Oh, we must do things to keep those people away" is usually how the conversation goes. As far as the people in wife beaters and baggy clothes, I propose a lot of those people aren't going in any bar or club, but rather just "walking around." I fail to see how getting rid of clubs will suddenly get rid of that crowd.

This whole conversation would probably not be happening if there were concrete plans for what would be coming to Bricktown, which IMO is probably part of a larger issue with how BT has been run. So instead we are talking in generalities about what we think certain people will and won't like. My problem with this is it is a very slippery slope to start excluding whole groups and demographics from what is the premier entertainment districts in the state based on anecdotal evidence, innuendo, and stereotypes.

I am probably in complete "train of thought mode" here, but one of the reason's taxpayer funded initiatives have been supported much better in OKC compared to Tulsa is the developments here are viewed as far more inclusive and open to everyone compared to T-town. I hate to say this, but when I went to the Brady District, I enjoyed myself. But that area was missing...something. I felt the planners specifically said, we want a district that is catered to liberal white Gen-Yers with masters degrees LOL. And that's exactly what they got. Don't get me wrong, I probably fit better in that crowd, but what about the 90% of people who do not? Just my 0.02.

Worded perfectly. I'm of the yuppy bar scene, myself, when the grandparents watch my wife and I son. We enjoy Urban Johnnies, Tapworks, Republic, Mcnellie's and the like. I was just saying that the younger millennials still enoy a good dance club. Those people out stirring trouble aren't going to pay a 20 dollar cover charge, on top of a 6 dollar beer/10 dollar mix drink. Those types are out waiting for my wife and I to leave the club so they can make some obnoxious remark about how hot she is, etc( though we don't go clubbing anymore). I think the forethought that clubs mean trouble is just a very conservative notion. It's outdated.

[Urbanized]

... I think the forethought that clubs mean trouble is just a very conservative notion. It's outdated.

No, it's a notion based on experience and direct observation over an extended period. You say yourself that that clubs attract people who stand outside of them and tell you that your wife is hot..? That is the DEFINITION of attractive nuisance. Earth to coov23...

Thank goodness you're apparently not prone to violence. You've just described EXACTLY the type of activity that gets people shot in front of a club at 2 AM on a Saturday night.

[Urbanized]

Worded perfectly. I'm of the yuppy bar scene, myself, when the grandparents watch my wife and I son. We enjoy Urban Johnnies, Tapworks, Republic, Mcnellie's and the like. I was just saying that the younger millennials still enoy a good dance club. Those people out stirring trouble aren't going to pay a 20 dollar cover charge, on top of a 6 dollar beer/10 dollar mix drink. Those types are out waiting for my wife and I to leave the club so they can make some obnoxious remark about how hot she is, etc( though we don't go clubbing anymore). I think the forethought that clubs mean trouble is just a very conservative notion. It's outdated.

Your full post preserved for posterity should you realize the irony and decide to change it.

[Spartan]

I think Bricktown should have a sex shop. In Cleveland there's one in the Warehouse District and in Ohio City and I have never known anyone who's ever shopped there (we all know how that goes), but it still says "this is a real city."

I was judging a building next door in Ohio City for a preservation award and our entire architectural panel was joking about the neighbors. Idk it's just intrinsic value, I appreciate lightheartedness it injects. Not everything can be a coffee shop or a clothing boutique.

Food for thought. What do we get by being purely family friendly? On the other hand, if we are talking about cover charges - that is a losing battle. Cover charges are bar owners way of getting patrons to buy into decorum and respectability for the most part. That's why most real cities do have $10 covers.

[coov23]

Your full post preserved for posterity should you realize the irony and decide to change it.

I'm not a young millennial. The older part of that generation. As for me getting over myself, you seem like quite the know-it-all. No debating with your type. You'll just try and belittle everyone. Seems to be internet tough guy way these days. Having a hardy debate is fine. You've seem to take the notion, in both brick town threads, that you know more about what's needed than we do. Funny thing is, it's our generation that's out using those bars and clubs. Seems like the baby boomers and gen-X types are trying to push their ideas one last time. I just moved back from the Philly. I spent plant of weekends in DC, NYC and Baltimore. You know what made their districts great? Diversity. Residential, commercial, retail, bars and clubs. All within walking distance. No one griped about clubs there. It was a given that they are a necessity for a thriving district.

[hoya]

I'm going to use the example of Charlotte here.

No way! Now that is unexpected.

[HOT ROD]

Thunder players are not here because of dance clubs, but having some dance clubs does give those 20 year-olds a sense that OKC has an urban vibe. This city already has a stereotype of un-hip and 'not a place for black people' (ala Charles Barkley). What do you think they are talking about?

Lack of stuff for the urban young to do at night.

Sure, we know OKC has much to offer but it is best to SHOW IT OFF in your best district. And that includes having SOME nightclubs featuring top dj's and music that is IN - meaning hip hop and dance/house. This is what the Gen Y urban crowd wants and if OKC wants to make a free agent or draft pic feel better about coming to OKC we need to showcase that our city is a member of the CLUB so to say, that we have an attractive club district SHOULD said NBA player or his fans desire to shake loose with the girls.

I think this shows the health of a city that it can offer entertainment for everyone and closing CityWalk of all places was the wrong message. I agree that Bricktown does not need to be club row but I think a club or two for popular music genre's (say 5, scattered throughout the area) would really complete the district and ease the 'pain' that some urbanites may have preconceived with moving/visiting Oklahoma City. If the city wants daytime action at the clubs then it can 'request' or mandate some sort of daytime function, such as restaurant use like what I saw in suburban Vancouver.

That's my 3-cents and I'm no longer in that age/scene.

[PhiAlpha]

Well, I am also a millennial. And I have slowly grown out of that "scene"...I rarely go to clubs even when I vacation in other cities. With that in mind, I enjoyed them at a certain point in my life and others feel as well. Social, RokBar, Skyy, and CityWalk did not close due to lack of business. My point being those places add to the diversity of the place. I mean, no offense, but who are you to say what attracts young professionals we are "dying to keep in town?" I know plenty of young professional people who enjoy going out to nightclubs. And when I had taken others from much larger cities to Bricktown they were often surprised at the vitality of OKC's nightlife scene.

I tend agree with another poster that there is a strain of prudish thought that is thankfully on the decline in OKC but tends to rear its head when discussions like these come up. "Oh, we must do things to keep those people away" is usually how the conversation goes. As far as the people in wife beaters and baggy clothes, I propose a lot of those people aren't going in any bar or club, but rather just "walking around." I fail to see how getting rid of clubs will suddenly get rid of that crowd.

This whole conversation would probably not be happening if there were concrete plans for what would be coming to Bricktown, which IMO is probably part of a larger issue with how BT has been run. So instead we are talking in generalities about what we think certain people will and won't like. My problem with this is it is a very slippery slope to start excluding whole groups and demographics from what is the premier entertainment districts in the state based on anecdotal evidence, innuendo, and stereotypes.

I am probably in complete "train of thought mode" here, but one of the reason's taxpayer funded initiatives have been supported much better in OKC compared to Tulsa is the developments here are viewed as far more inclusive and open to everyone compared to T-town. I hate to say this, but when I went to the Brady District, I enjoyed myself. But that area was missing...something. I felt the planners specifically said, we want a district that is catered to liberal white Gen-Yers with masters degrees LOL. And that's exactly what they got. Don't get me wrong, I probably fit better in that crowd, but what about the 90% of people who do not? Just my 0.02.

For the most part I agree with you, but it's hard to say that they diversify the place when they made up the majority of the venues there for a long time (and still really). As far as what young professionals want, I'm speaking from experiences with the groups I hangout with. Seeing as how were in the same field, in the same industry, I'm sure they overlap at some point. My biggest issue with candy, Albee, city walk, doll house, social (or whatever they call it now), etc is that they are basically empty store fronts for 90% of the week. Due to the cheaper quality and configuration of those venues, it would be tough to see them operating as a restaurant during the day, so if those venues stay around Bricktown I think they would be better off the main corridors of the district (like the location drinkz is in). If they could configure them to be operational in some capacity during the week, then power to them. It also doesn't help that they're all clustered together thus creating a massive dead zone during 90% of the week. You can't possibly argue that that is a good situation for the district. Also when clustered so close together, the worst parts of the crowds they attract converge and cause issues, case in point the shooting outside Social. So again, I'm not against clubs in Bricktown, but I am against them as currently configured. Not enough diversity in the club scene with too many lower quality clubs, clustered too closely together, with too few hours of operation.

As far as Brady/blue dome vs Bricktown. While Bricktown has been more all inclusive, it's gone to the opposite direction of Brady and blue dome. Too many clubs and bars aimed at the younger/graphic tee club group, not enough aimed at the yuppie crowd that Brady/blue dome caters to. While I agree that those districts are not perfect, my friends from Tulsa and I go out in Bricktown and think that something is missing as well. While I think it's great that we have a club scene and Tulsa doesn't, Bricktown definitely lacks some of the cooler yuppie type bars and live music venues that they've built. There has to be a happy medium somewhere and with the influx of people to Bricktown brought on by the increase in residential and office space, I think we are starting to see that balance out.


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[bchris02]

Thunder players are not here because of dance clubs, but having some dance clubs does give those 20 year-olds a sense that OKC has an urban vibe. This city already has a stereotype of un-hip and 'not a place for black people' (ala Charles Barkley). What do you think they are talking about?

Lack of stuff for the urban young to do at night.

Sure, we know OKC has much to offer but it is best to SHOW IT OFF in your best district. And that includes having SOME nightclubs featuring top dj's and music that is IN - meaning hip hop and dance/house. This is what the Gen Y urban crowd wants and if OKC wants to make a free agent or draft pic feel better about coming to OKC we need to showcase that our city is a member of the CLUB so to say, that we have an attractive club district SHOULD said NBA player or his fans desire to shake loose with the girls.

I think this shows the health of a city that it can offer entertainment for everyone and closing CityWalk of all places was the wrong message. I agree that Bricktown does not need to be club row but I think a club or two for popular music genre's (say 5, scattered throughout the area) would really complete the district and ease the 'pain' that some urbanites may have preconceived with moving/visiting Oklahoma City. If the city wants daytime action at the clubs then it can 'request' or mandate some sort of daytime function, such as restaurant use like what I saw in suburban Vancouver.

That's my 3-cents and I'm no longer in that age/scene.

Agree completely with this.

Mandating clubs be restaurants by day may be the way to go, but this city needs a club scene. If they can move somewhere other than Bricktown, as long as they are in the core, that would work, but this city needs a club scene.

[bchris02]

No way! Now that is unexpected.

It's appropriate in this instance. Charlotte is a city that gets it right. They don't have a lot of clubs but the ones they have are VERY nice and add to the urban fabric rather than detract.

[Urbanized]

LOL now I'm an Internet tough guy.

As for me knowing what does and doesn't work in Bricktown, yeah, I'm personally pretty certain of that. I have a huge amount of time and experience in the district, as a consumer, as a business manager, as a business owner, and as a volunteer and longtime (now former) board member of the association. I'm also a former Main Street manager in the Automobile Alley District and served for a number of years as a board member of the Automobile Alley Main Street Program. I actually have some formal training in downtown development revitalization, believe it or not.

In Bricktown I have spent years watching places succeed, and watching places fail. I have spent years stepping over vomit outside of clubs, watching fights spill out of them, watching victims of violence carted off in ambulances. I have talked with a multitude of cops, some while hanging out on the street next to their black and whites at one in the morning, some over coffee, some in meetings. I have gotten to know everyone from bicycle cops up to the Chief of Police, during a club-fueled crisis that created the current approach to policing in Bricktown.

I have stood on sidewalks during hot nights in July as a Bricktown board member at club closing time answering questions of news reporters on camera after episodes of violence. I was standing outside of a nightclub, BTW. I have feared for my employees as club brawls erupted on sidewalks. None - NONE - of these activities have involved bars/pubs/venues. They ALL involve nightclubs.

So you can choose to dismiss me if you wish (you already have obviously) and hold fast to the notion that you know what's best for Bricktown because you've partied with Thunder players (I hate to break it to you, but so have I), and because you USED to go to clubs before you married your "hot" wife and no longer liked dragging her past the peanut gallery that congregates outside clubs to start trouble.

Personally, I hope people listen more to PhiAlpha than either of us. He's the demographic Bricktown and OKC need to be pursuing, and he's obviously got his head on straight on this matter.

[Plutonic Panda]

No way! Now that is unexpected.

i know you're being sarcastic, but you should realize the since he is familiar with the city, that is why he uses it as an example a bunch. That what i assume anyways. I do the same thing with Dallas