#OKC2SEA: The Big Move

[White Peacock]

I didn't take the question like that. Here it is again:

Quote Originally Posted by Pete
Honest question: If you feel so strongly, why don't you move back?

Is it possible this was just a question, and not reactionary at all?

Yes, but what you quoted was not directed toward Pete's question, but toward Urbanized telling me I need to get out ASAP. The remainder was an explanation of why I still live here.

Urbanized: we will indeed consider our options when my wife has completed nursing school and we look at the most ideal employment setup. We both dislike the state, but we both agree that it's on a considerable upswing and we're on the fence as to whether or not it's better to flee, or stick around and see what becomes of it. We'll decide if it's in our better interests to move, and when the time is right if so. And please note that I'm not miserable; I may not be thrilled with my location, but I'm a happy guy.

[Urbanized]

That's fine, but what I don't understand is the motivation to come onto a board like this just to tell everyone how bad they have it here. The same goes for Chris. Hardly a productive behavior. If you'd like to be a part of changing things, great. If not, there are always greener pastures.

[DavidD_NorthOKC]

I've lived in a lot of places and the key is to actually TRY to find the good in wherever you live. I would have never dreamed I would still be here but OKC has many positive things going for it. I might move in the next few years but it won't necessarily be because I hate or dislike OKC. Embrace the good and accept the not so good - and do what you can to improve on the not so good. That is universal no matter where you live and key to contentment in my opinion.

[Cid]

Yes, but what you quoted was not directed toward Pete's question, but toward Urbanized telling me I need to get out ASAP. The remainder was an explanation of why I still live here.

Urbanized: we will indeed consider our options when my wife has completed nursing school and we look at the most ideal employment setup. We both dislike the state, but we both agree that it's on a considerable upswing and we're on the fence as to whether or not it's better to flee, or stick around and see what becomes of it. We'll decide if it's in our better interests to move, and when the time is right if so. And please note that I'm not miserable; I may not be thrilled with my location, but I'm a happy guy.

My apologies. I had it wrong.

[CuatrodeMayo]

For some of us, the weather in the PNW is the major disqualifying point. Everytime I've been there, I am reminded of why we don't live there, as we almost moved there once. A 2 week vacation there changed our mind rather quickly. What's appealing to one is offputting to another.

The weather can be depressing, no doubt...but when it's nice...it's amazing.

This is from my desk this morning:

[bchris02]

No, seriously. Life's too short to be that kind of miserable. If I disliked a place that much, I'd make a plan and leave. Simpler than you're making it out to be.

Sometimes that plan has to be a long-term plan. Especially once you get more than a year or two out of college simply packing up all your belongings in a van and moving across the country on a whim isn't a real viable option. Right now I am formulating a three-year plan to get out of OKC but even that is a long shot considering the financial obligations and the load of debt I've trapped myself in since I've been here. I am also open to staying if indeed it grows on me within that time and I start liking it.

Urbanized: we will indeed consider our options when my wife has completed nursing school and we look at the most ideal employment setup. We both dislike the state, but we both agree that it's on a considerable upswing and we're on the fence as to whether or not it's better to flee, or stick around and see what becomes of it. We'll decide if it's in our better interests to move, and when the time is right if so. And please note that I'm not miserable; I may not be thrilled with my location, but I'm a happy guy.

Pretty much my situation exactly. I am not shy to let people know I am not happy here (if they ask me, I never bring it up), but I acknowledge it is improving and am in no way the negative person in real life many here probably envision by the content of some of my posts. Honestly I don't want to have to go through the hassle of moving again. Having made significant moves three times in the past five years I am a bit fatigued of it. Though it lacks some amenities I was used to in Charlotte, I could probably make do in OKC long-term if it wasn't for the crazy severe weather and the ultra-conservative, insular culture. The first will never change because of the geography but the second may change one day as the city grows and be comes more diverse. The question is, do I want to wait around and wait for OKC to get to where I would like it to be or should I just move somewhere thats already there.

[Pete]

The question is, do I want to wait around and wait for OKC to get to where I would like it to be or should I just move somewhere thats already there.

How about getting involved and helping to make positive changes?

The ease of making this happen is one of the best things about OKC and scores of people from this site are extensively involved in making OKC much more progressive.

And many of the City's leaders, developers, committee members, restaurateurs and entrepreneurs are young and/or without a lot of financial resources.


You have plenty of time and energy when it comes to criticism; how about redirecting some of that towards making things better?

[TheTravellers]

Good question. If I had my way I would be back in the QC tomorrow but it isn't that easy. It's so easy to say to people "If you don't like it here, I-35 and I-40 go both directions" but most of the time more goes into where they call home and why than simply where they would ideally like to be. There are things like finances, employment, family, roots, etc than can prevent one from simply packing up and leaving. I would assume the situation is similar for White Peacock. Bloom where you are planted is good advice. I would like to add this thought to that though - some plants are harder to grow in certain climates than others.

I lived here from 1965-1995, lived in WI, IN, IL, and WA (mainly IL) from 1995-2009, then here from 2009-present. I left OKC as soon as I was able, I never wanted to come back, but could not find a job in Seattle, St. Louis, Phoenix, or Kansas City while my unemployment benefits were running out. Wife couldn't find a job in Seattle at all (this was right when the economy started failing). A month before my benefits ran out, a contract job came up in OKC, pretty much had to take it, no other prospects. I would love to leave again, but it literally cost us about $10,000 each time we moved from one state to another, and the last 2 times we had to pay for it all ourselves. We do not like it here at all, for reasons which are pretty obvious, but we just can't "leave if you don't like it", we don't have an extra $10,000+ to do it again, we're not in our 20s (or even 30s), it takes a toll physically, mentally, and fiscally to move a long distance, and while I would dearly love to get to a state that isn't in the bottom 10% of good things and top 10% of bad things, we're pretty much stuck here. Things have gotten better over the past 10-15 years, and will continue to do so, but it'll probably take longer than my lifetime to get OK up to a standard that I'd consider acceptable. Blooming where you're planted isn't going to work well if the fertilizer they're pouring on you is toxic to you, and for all of you saying "if you don't like it, leave", just stop saying it, it's not that easy.

[AP]

Regardless of your circumstances and why you have to stay here, if you hate it so much, why do both of you come to this site so much? This site is for people who love the city and state and care about it, and you two are the opposite. Specifically bchris, you bring a very negative vibe to every thread you comment on and I think the large majority of posters are tired of it.

[bchris02]

nm

[Pete]

bchris's attitude annoys me probably more than anyone, as you can probably tell by my being uncharacteristically argumentative with him.

The reason I even bother is because to a certain degree it's a good exercise. There are plenty of negative people in any community and you can't just dismiss the attitude because you are likely going to run into it over and over again. You don't want to dwell on it, but you do have to respect that you're not dealing with an insignificant amount of people.

At least we are talking about negativity from posters who actually want OKC to be more progressive, which is why I suppose they come to this site.


I personally believe that the far bigger threat comes from blind boosterism, but that is best counterbalanced through constructive criticism and personal commitment. (I've posted about blind boosterism in OKC before and will so again because it's really starting to frighten me in many ways.)

[Pete]

Wanted to expand on the "arguing is a good exercise" point...

For example, there are days when I get so frustrated with some things that happen in the City and state that I could be easily led into a negative rant. When I think about people like Sally Kern and our legislature in general and the Planning Commission's handling of the Guyutes project (and several others) and our absurd liquor laws or the lack of commitment to education or the power held by far too few people.... It's not hard to feel like we still have a very long way to go.

But at the same time, I can't merely decide to love Los Angeles (or Portland or wherever) because it already has so much... I am married to OKC for life, for better or worse.

I absolutely love living in Southern California but after almost 25 years I am still not attached to it in any deep way. It's not *mine* in the way Oklahoma City will always be.

So, rather than obsessing over the list of deficiencies, I'd rather concentrate on the good and what could be made to be better. I simply don't see any other choice.


It's pretty clear that some people just don't have this feeling of commitment and probably never will; even if they are 'stuck' in OKC for a very long time.

[bchris02]

Regardless of your circumstances and why you have to stay here, if you hate it so much, why do both of you come to this site so much? This site is for people who love the city and state and care about it, and you two are the opposite. Specifically bchris, you bring a very negative vibe to every thread you comment on and I think the large majority of posters are tired of it.

When I moved to OKC I had a very positive mindset and had high expectations and was excited about many of the things going on here. I still am. I also have roots here way back. For numerous personal reasons my opinion of this place has soured over the past two years to the point where I would rather be somewhere else but cannot move due to financial obligations. Maybe its time for me to stop posting here, I've thought about it numerous times, yet I still enjoy reading and learning about whats going on here. I really do want whats best for OKC. I have lived in other cities i.e. Charlotte that experienced radical transformation and growth in a short period of time and it feels as if OKC is on the cusp of such a transformation and just needs something big to kick-start it. It just seems like the ultra-conservative politics, small mindedness, low standards, etc that is basically the "old guard" constantly rears its ugly head and prevents this city from reaching its potential. That's when I get negative.

[betts]

The weather can be depressing, no doubt...but when it's nice...it's amazing.

But that's true here as well and for a sunshine lover like me, the good days here outnumber the bad. I grew up with grey and fell in love with sunny skies when I moved away.

[jmpokc1957]

Wanted to expand on the "arguing is a good exercise" point...

For example, there are days when I get so frustrated with some things that happen in the City and state that I could be easily led into a negative rant. When I think about people like Sally Kern and our legislature in general and the Planning Commission's handling of the Guyutes project (and several others) and our absurd liquor laws or the lack of commitment to education or the power held by far too few people.... It's not hard to feel like we still have a very long way to go.

But at the same time, I can't merely decide to love Los Angeles (or Portland or wherever) because it already has so much... I am married to OKC for life, for better or worse.

I absolutely love living in Southern California but after almost 25 years I am still not attached to it in any deep way. It's not *mine* in the way Oklahoma City will always be.

So, rather than obsessing over the list of deficiencies, I'd rather concentrate on the good and what could be made to be better. I simply don't see any other choice.


It's pretty clear that some people just don't have this feeling of commitment and probably never will; even if they are 'stuck' in OKC for a very long time.

I grew up in OKC but have lived in the Portland, Oregon, area for many years. Portland is a very progressive, cosmopolitan, international city with great attractions, but yet I've wanted to leave for a long time.

Well, why haven't' I?

The answer is, it's complicated. I've achieved some measure of success here, I have a home, friends, and, most importantly, my family is here. In other words, I've developed attachments. Time, however, changes things. Some family members have moved away, social attitudes change, I'm getting older(yikes!).
Now it is likely my wife and I will move to a more rural area fairly soon which culturally is closer to the OKC of my youth. The passage of time can make things possible.


I've learned that when you ask people for their opinion, which is what these discussion threads are all about, that's what you get, an opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. Life goes on.

[TheTravellers]

...it feels as if OKC is on the cusp of such a transformation and just needs something big to kick-start it. It just seems like the ultra-conservative politics, small mindedness, low standards, etc that is basically the "old guard" constantly rears its ugly head and prevents this city from reaching its potential. That's when I get negative.

This ^^^. I post here to (try to) help educate folks and take their blinders off, and to learn things about the city, and get timely information (this site is so incredibly useful with the amount of info on it, it's amazing - thanks, Pete and Martin). I hear this sentiment so many times from people that live here that it just makes me sick - "Well, that doesn't affect me, I just live my life and stay out of things and just keep doot-de-doot-de-doot-ing along" (yeah, not those exact words, but that sentiment is so widespread here, it's just horrible, and probably one reason why OK isn't that great in a ton of areas). I would *love* for OKC (and OK) to get its sh*t together and turn into a world-class-type, big-league-type of city, but yes, the entire state (as well as OKC) is held back by the stuff you mention above, and it just gets sooooooooooooooo damn old beating your head against a brick wall 2 feet thick (kinda like that other thread in Politics) and not getting anywhere.

I need to get more involved personally in some of this stuff, but it takes so much energy to fight things that you know are probably unwinnable/unfightable/pointless. I'm kind of (pleasantly) amazed that OKC has done some of the things it's done (not so much OK, just OKC), but it's been a hard, long fight, and (as I just read what Pete said) there's a loooooong way to go. And I know that the "power of the people" has gotten things done in the past, but now with the massive income inequality, I wonder how much more "the people" can do. Wish I could find the article, read it recently, but it basically said that the super-rich will always win out over the masses and the masses just don't have that much power at all, despite voting in their preferred candidates, etc. because the super-rich can write the laws, influence the politicians, etc., and the masses can just be ignored. I'd really hate it if that truly happened on a wide scale, but it appears it can, and that's one of the main reasons I get frustrated and angry with OKC (and OK) leaders is that they're doing their own special agenda, they're not for the people, but can we fight it without exhausting ourselves and driving ourselves crazy? Don't know, but that's why sometimes I just don't bother, I know it won't do any good. Other times, I fight, just depends, but yes, I'd like OKC to get better, that's one of the main reasons I come here.

[Pete]

There are two things that will change OKC faster than anything else: 1) big influx of people from elsewhere; and 2) retaining young people.

#2 has already shifted pretty dramatically and I see that trend picking up steam.

#1 has started to happen, but I'm talking about the type of huge emigration seen in boomtowns like Atlanta, Dallas, Austin, Charlotte, Portland, etc. (20-40% growth in a decade, where OKC has been hovering around 12-18%). All those places were once considered backwaters and dominated by the surrounding culture of the state. But that changed almost overnight when thousands came streaming in for jobs and even more came when the amenities followed the economic windfall.

I think that is on the verge of happening in OKC. For all the progress, it's universally been home-grown. All the companies are from Oklahoma, they are just expanding. All the leaders and decision makers and developers, too. So, you get evolution rather than revolution.

But I think true revolution is coming because the jobs are already there with plenty more to come, and the amenities are starting to get there as well.


I really think we are past the tipping point and momentum is building, not just being maintained.

[bchris02]

There are two things that will change OKC faster than anything else: 1) big influx of people from elsewhere; and 2) retaining young people.

#2 has already shifted pretty dramatically and I see that trend picking up steam.

#1 has started to happen, but I'm talking about the type of huge emigration seen in boomtowns like Atlanta, Dallas, Austin, Charlotte, Portland, etc. (20-40% growth in a decade, where OKC has been hovering around 12-18%). All those places were once considered backwaters and dominated by the surrounding culture of the state. But that changed almost overnight when thousands came streaming in for jobs and even more came when the amenities followed the economic windfall.

I think that is on the verge of happening in OKC. For all the progress, it's universally been home-grown. All the companies are from Oklahoma, they are just expanding. All the leaders and decision makers and developers, too. So, you get evolution rather than revolution.

But I think true revolution is coming because the jobs are already there with plenty more to come, and the amenities are starting to get there as well.


I really think we are past the tipping point and momentum is building, not just being maintained.

This is one reason I think the GE Research Center is such a huge deal. It has the potential to be the deal that kick-starts this city into a real boom. You are right, this city needs to retain more young people (and not just young people who get married at 22 and settle down) as well as have an influx of transplants. The amenities will follow and then more people will follow the amenities.

[Pete]

The job market right now in OKC is pretty flipping great.

It's hard to track all the companies that are in rapid expansion mode. Not only the high-paying jobs like GE, Boeing, oil & gas plus HQ jobs at Sonic, Hobby Lobby and Love's... But also distribution and call centers and food service and everything in between.

Most of this has been accomplished in a very sluggish national economy that is only just now starting to rebound.

[CuatrodeMayo]

Andrew, I'm way behind reading and posting on OKCTalk but just saw you moved into town. Welcome to Seattle!

Ping me and let's grab coffee. There are lots of places to do that here.

Also, come watch a Thunder game with me! Lots of Thunder fans... and yes, like that picture shows, there still is a minority of weirdos but frankly, I feel the same way about some OU fans... some people just don't know how to enjoy the sport. Take things way too far or personally. I digress...

The weather right now is absolutely stunning so I hope you are getting a chance to soak up that sun. Looking forward to syncing up.

Let's do it!

[bluedogok]

Congrats on the move, a new perspective is sometimes what we all need at times.

When I moved to Dallas in 1991 it was because the A/E industry was bad, laid off at Benham at the tail end of about 100 laid off in a year. Moved back to OKC in 1993 because I just didn't like Dallas much. I was ready to move on in 2003 after Benham had been bought out and the company was changing, the real reason was to get married and my wife had a pretty good job and didn't think it would be as hard to find something in my field in Austin as it would be for her in OKC. In 2006 we came up to Denver for vacation and decided we would start to plan our move up here. I had interviewed off/on up here since my first Benham layoff in 1991, we had targeted 2009 as the year to move...then the economy happened so we stayed in Austin another couple of years. Finally made the move in 2011-12 and have been happy with the decision since we were so tired of the heat/humidity of Austin and the other things that are changing that city.

[Plutonic Panda]

The weather can be depressing, no doubt...but when it's nice...it's amazing.

This is from my desk this morning:

Holy crap. That is absolutely beautiful! That's some serious density right there.