Let's Talk About Prayer...Part II

[PennyQuilts]

One can be baptized in Christ to rid sin. Also, some believe the crucifixion of Christ washed away all sins. It seems there are ways to get out of paying for those sins.

Some believe their sin will be be covered so they are assured a place in heaven. However, No church that I know of, including many conservative churches like Southern Baptist or Assembly of God, teach that Baptism means man will no longer be a sinner. And many mainstream Christian churches do NOT preach once saved, always saved. All impose an ongoing obligation to confess and repent of their sin and many require good works as evidence of their changed heart. The Catholics are a whole different category of getting those sins forgiven.

You are mixing up a ticket into heaven (your sins won't keep you out) vs the fundamental obligation imposed on all Christians to search their soul on a continuous basis, confess their sins to god (and perhaps others) and repent (turn away from their sin). The notion that we are sinners and obligated to try to be a better, more godlike person is central to the Christian faith. You misunderstand if you think Christianity is about a free for all where believers are better than other people because they are forgiven their sins.

This is one if those basic theology things that is getting lost in translation. And that goes to the theology that you can't earn your way into heaven. Absent forgiveness, so the theology goes, no one gets in because sinners aren't allowed.

Few Christian believers behave to get into heaven. And few kick up their heels, sinning like mad, because they think they are going to heaven no matter what they do. The whole notion is illogical. People of faith try to be good people because that is the obligation placed upon them by their god/faith. You are attributing motivations that don't apply for the vast majority of believers.

[Prunepicker]

One can be baptized in Christ to rid sin.

Wrong. Who said that?

Also, some believe the crucifixion of Christ washed away all sins. It seems
there are ways to get out of paying for those sins.

They may believe it but that's not true. Jesus' crucifixion was the final
sacrifice for our sins. In order to have our sins removes we must believe
that Jesus died for our sins.

I'm not sure where you get your information but it's very clear that it isn't
from the Bible.

[zookeeper]

I highly recommend reading THE JEFFERSON BIBLE: What Thomas Jefferson Selected as THE LIFE AND MORALS OF JESUS OF NAZARETH.

It is simply the words of Jesus Christ. An "all-red letter" version of the Bible. It was given to members of Congress after they were sworn into office until the last 1950's.

It gives you a new perspective on what Jesus of Nazareth himself had to say.

[Prunepicker]

They are happier because they don't take the blame. They believe they have
done nothing wrong. They are happier because it is easy for them to deny it.

Not true. Not a single thing you said is true. I suggest you read the Bible
and learn what it says instead of relying upon making things up.

Would you discuss Shakespeare without reading what he wrote? According
to your replies the answer is yes. Why are you replying to something you
know nothing about? Seriously? That's intellectual bankruptcy.

Why would anyone try to debate something they know nothing about?

[White Peacock]

Not true. Not a single thing you said is true. I suggest you read the Bible
and learn what it says instead of relying upon making things up.

Would you discuss Shakespeare without reading what he wrote? According
to your replies the answer is yes. Why are you replying to something you
know nothing about? Seriously? That's intellectual bankruptcy.

Why would anyone try to debate something they know nothing about?

In the interest of fairness, OkieBerto is not preaching the Bible; he's observing Christian behavior. You don't need to read a single word of the Bible in order to observe the behavior of those who claim faith in it, and undoubtedly the things that many of them say about their faith have no foundation in the book of their faith's founding. And although he's throwing up a straw man here and there, that is essentially the attitude many Christians have regarding their place in the world. It's less about their Christ, and more about their status as Christians, and all that they'd like that to mean.

You don't need Biblical citations to criticize modern Christian attitudes.

[BBatesokc]

They are happier because they refuse to see what their actions have caused in our world. They are happier because a book told them they can live for eternity and go to Heaven with their Creator. I really wish I had that type of faith. Trust me, me as a non-believer is hard. I was raised in the church and now I can stand seeing people I love totally ignore the world they live in.

What an arrogant and ignorant statement. You don't even know the people whom I'm referring to yet you pretend to know all about them. Your statements are every bit as hypocritical as those of faith you'd cast aside.

Some of the best Christian people I know live in far greater a reality than I'm guessing you ever have. They are happier because they have focus and purpose - a purpose that goes fear beyond your cynical outlook on the world.

I can't imagine how lonely your world is.

[OkieBerto]

Now all those who think what I have been saying is ignorant and arrogant can feel what the minority of us non-believers feel. Not a day passes with out examples of good religious people and horrible religious people. The only difference is, they claim to be that way because of their beliefs. I am who I am because of Christianity. I was raised the same way most everyone on this thread was raised, in a church. Sometimes the faith doesn't stick.

It is very ironic to say someone with my views lives in a lonely world, when the people who I disagree with have to make up a creator just to not feel alone.

[PennyQuilts]

Now all those who think what I have been saying is ignorant and arrogant can feel what the minority of us non-believers feel. Not a day passes with out examples of good religious people and horrible religious people. The only difference is, they claim to be that way because of their beliefs. I am who I am because of Christianity. I was raised the same way most everyone on this thread was raised, in a church. Sometimes the faith doesn't stick.

It is very ironic to say someone with my views lives in a lonely world, when the people who I disagree with have to make up a creator just to not feel alone.

I don't dispute that you seem traumatized by whatever but you are looking at the world through your own filter and assuming others have your same attitude and worldview. Most don't.
I left the church a long time ago out of frustration with the theology. I definitely don't share your presumptions about the attitudes and motivations of people of faith. You are describing the human condition and instead of embracing that the world is full of imperfect people, you are projecting your own sack of rocks and trying to find something to blame. The church isn't the problem nor did it convert humans into hypocritical, self centered beings. You've decided an enormous multitude of people are pretty scummy with oddball opinions and strange motivations without ever knowing them. That isn't reality based. It is almost all your projection of a twisted stereotype. What you have described as sort of normal Christian thought strikes most of us with exposure to Christians as peculiar, illogical and strange.

[OkieBerto]

I don't dispute that you seem traumatized by whatever but you are looking at the world through your own filter and assuming others have your same attitude and worldview. Most don't.

I agree, that is why I used the word minority. Also, does it make you feel better if someone like me was traumatized by something? Just because my worldview is different doesn't mean I am traumatized or something horrible happened to me. It is actually the opposite. I had a very pleasant childhood in the church. I was not wronged by the church or any of the people who were in it. Nor the University I attended, which was a private Christian College. I am just someone with a different opinion, yet you see me as wrong. Why?

I left the church a long time ago out of frustration with the theology.

We have something in common.

What you have described as sort of normal Christian thought strikes most of us with exposure to Christians as peculiar, illogical and strange.

This is how most Christians I know would describe me as a non-believer. This is what I am getting at, I don't blame any of you for feeling the way you do about what I said. I admit it is a very one sided view and is totally ignorant of me to say, but this is an example of how Christians usually treat those who do not believe like them. They go to extremes and instead of trying to reason with someone, they call them lonely, arrogant, ignorant and hypocritical. And since right now you are the majority, the majority should take some blame for it.

[Dubya61]

In the interest of fairness, OkieBerto is not preaching the Bible; he's observing Christian behavior. You don't need to read a single word of the Bible in order to observe the behavior of those who claim faith in it, and undoubtedly the things that many of them say about their faith have no foundation in the book of their faith's founding. And although he's throwing up a straw man here and there, that is essentially the attitude many Christians have regarding their place in the world. It's less about their Christ, and more about their status as Christians, and all that they'd like that to mean.

You don't need Biblical citations to criticize modern Christian attitudes.

I would like to pile onto this train of thought and concur. From what I understand, OkieBerto is not some outsider who misunderstands the premise. He or she clearly has had some indoctrination into modern Christian behavior and had come to the conclusion that it is not for him or her. Further, I think it's evident that this is not some petulant whim. It's obvious to me that it's the product of some well-thought out personal analysis. Those who disagree with OkieBerto are more than welcome to debate it, but I believe that OkieBerto has made these conclusions with due diligence.
While I disagree with some with regards to religion, spirituality and morality, often times these conclusions that my theological "opponents" have are not flippant and will probably not be dissuaded by talking points and rhetoric.

[PennyQuilts]

I agree, that is why I used the word minority. Also, does it make you feel better if someone like me was traumatized by something? Just because my worldview is different doesn't mean I am traumatized or something horrible happened to me. It is actually the opposite. I had a very pleasant childhood in the church. I was not wronged by the church or any of the people who were in it. Nor the University I attended, which was a private Christian College. I am just someone with a different opinion, yet you see me as wrong. Why?



We have something in common.



This is how most Christians I know would describe me as a non-believer. This is what I am getting at, I don't blame any of you for feeling the way you do about what I said. I admit it is a very one sided view and is totally ignorant of me to say, but this is an example of how Christians usually treat those who do not believe like them. They go to extremes and instead of trying to reason with someone, they call them lonely, arrogant, ignorant and hypocritical. And since right now you are the majority, the majority should take some blame for it.

Of course I'm not happy that you were traumatized. That it would even occur to you that this would make someone feel better says so much about how you are addressing this.

From where I stand, what confuses me as much as anything else is why you are at all worried about what other people think about your personal beliefs. Or that it even comes up in a conversation to the point where it gets to be a problem. I'm a raging pagan and I honestly can't recall it even coming up in the conversation in decades. I suppose part of it is that I'm not evangelical and don't feel any desire or need to proselytize. I don't know what your style is but I can tell you that if someone is out there trying to talk people out of their faith or, god forbid, trying to convert them, 90% of the time they are going to get push back and it doesn't matter if they are pagan, Seventh Day Adventist or Southern Baptist. And since proselytizing is imbedded in most mainstream christian theology, waiving your anti christian beliefs at them is like a red flag to a bull. Why even go there??? In many ways, that is setting them up to have to choose between being polite to you vs. ignoring something their faith encourages them to do. I personally think that I am being kind of rude when I put people in that position. But then, I "get" the importance of faith even if I don't necessarily agree with a given theology.

My faith is my business and while I mention it on OKCtalk to explain where I am coming from, in idle conversation with family, friends and neighbors, it rarely comes up. If I hear other people doing the god bless you or have a blessed day or WWJD, it is no skin off my nose if that is how they believe. I have no confidence that what "I" believe is any more legitimate so who am I to judge? I just know that my own belief system feels right to me.

Additionally, as someone who has received excellent treatment at faith based medical centers for myself and my family, and as someone who has often found treatment providers from faith based organizations and seen the value of the 12 step program for many substance abusers, the last thing I want to do is crush the christians. They ain't bothering me and at the end of the day, I likely get more from them in our culture than they do from me.

[OkieBerto]

I would like to pile onto this train of thought and concur. From what I understand, OkieBerto is not some outsider who misunderstands the premise. He or she clearly has had some indoctrination into modern Christian behavior and had come to the conclusion that it is not for him or her. Further, I think it's evident that this is not some petulant whim. It's obvious to me that it's the product of some well-thought out personal analysis. Those who disagree with OkieBerto are more than welcome to debate it, but I believe that OkieBerto has made these conclusions with due diligence.
While I disagree with some with regards to religion, spirituality and morality, often times these conclusions that my theological "opponents" have are not flippant and will probably not be dissuaded by talking points and rhetoric.

Thank you for not joining the bandwagon and actually trying to understand what I am saying. I am not asking anyone to change their belief system, I am asking them to open their eyes to what is in front of them and stop closing them and praying so much for something to intervene. I am also not trying to destroy any religion, I am merely asking those who are religious to stop voting for religious bills. Public prayer is not a right that should be made into some law or bill, it is something that anyone no matter what belief system they follow should be allowed to do. When bills are passed that regulate things dependent on religion, you are not representing the beliefs of everyone.

Jesus himself was a minority and a person who was not agreeing with the majority. He had to put up with people telling him he is wrong and also dealt with death threats everywhere he went. He eventually died because of his belief. I am not trying to say I am like Jesus, but I am saying he was once in my shoes, sharing what he thought to be the better way of being. That included having dinner with tax collectors and meeting with Gentiles. In the teachings of Jesus, I may be wrong, but I am still accepted as God's child.

[OkieBerto]

Of course I'm not happy that you were traumatized.

Like I said, I was not traumatized. I haven't needed any professional help for my thoughts because they are not ones that cause me depression. You still assume there is something wrong with me.

From where I stand, what confuses me as much as anything else is why you are at all worried about what other people think about your personal beliefs. Or that it even comes up in a conversation to the point where it gets to be a problem. I'm a raging pagan and I honestly can't recall it even coming up in the conversation in decades. I suppose part of it is that I'm not evangelical and don't feel any desire or need to proselytize. I don't know what your style is but I can tell you that if someone is out there trying to talk people out of their faith or, god forbid, trying to convert them, 90% of the time they are going to get push back and it doesn't matter if they are pagan, Seventh Day Adventist or Southern Baptist. And since proselytizing is imbedded in most mainstream christian theology, waiving your anti christian beliefs at them is like a red flag to a bull. Why even go there??? In many ways, that is setting them up to have to choose between being polite to you vs. ignoring something their faith encourages them to do. I personally think that I am being kind of rude when I put people in that position. But then, I "get" the importance of faith even if I don't necessarily agree with a given theology.

I am not trying to talk people out of their religion. I know most will not be swayed, I am merely asking for some middle ground. Public prayer does not need a law or bill. Climate Change should not be a political debate, because someone believes God is going to fix it. It is obvious this is a lost cause because even a Raging Pagan like yourself allows the people around them to blindly vote for Politicians who campaign with Jesus on their shoulder and then when in office try and write bills against scientific facts.

[Bunty]

So don't vote. It only encourages them. Especially when the incumbents win.

[PennyQuilts]

Like I said, I was not traumatized. I haven't needed any professional help for my thoughts because they are not ones that cause me depression. You still assume there is something wrong with me.



I am not trying to talk people out of their religion. I know most will not be swayed, I am merely asking for some middle ground. Public prayer does not need a law or bill. Climate Change should not be a political debate, because someone believes God is going to fix it. It is obvious this is a lost cause because even a Raging Pagan like yourself allows the people around them to blindly vote for Politicians who campaign with Jesus on their shoulder and then when in office try and write bills against scientific facts.

This raging pagan doesn't "allow" anyone to blindly vote one way or the other and to even say that begs the question of what you see as appropriate in terms of such things. To me, how someone votes, individually, is none of my business and getting all up into other people's religious faith to challenge their core beliefs is just boorish. As for climate change, you again make the leap that this is just about trusting in god or a religious issue. Seriously? I mean, seriously? You actually think the so called "deniers" must be motivated by religious faith or be anti science? Wow. I'll stop, now. I wish you the best in your journey and sincerely hope that some day a lot of the things that distress you begin to come better into focus. You are seeing the world with a filter I can't even imagine so nothing I can say would likely be helpful to you at this point in your life. All the best.

[Prunepicker]

One can be baptized in Christ to rid sin...

This is an incorrect statement.

[Prunepicker]

In the interest of fairness, OkieBerto is not preaching the Bible; he's
observing Christian behavior.

And mainly those behaviors by so-called Christians that have nothing to
do with Christianity. I didn't say he was preaching the Bible but it
would certainly help him understand what Christianity is by reading the
New Testament or only the Gospels.

[Stan Silliman]

Did I read this opinion correctly? Did Justice Thomas say that individual states could establish a state religion?
I think that is what he said. States and cities could establish a religion just so long as it's not the feds.
Has Utah done something like this? Do people in Utah feel like they are living in a theocracy?

[OkieBerto]

This is an incorrect statement.

by your opinion.

[OkieBerto]

And mainly those behaviors by so-called Christians that have nothing to
do with Christianity. I didn't say he was preaching the Bible but it
would certainly help him understand what Christianity is by reading the
New Testament or only the Gospels.

Actually I preached the Bible to you in another thread because you claimed there were no verses about a certain subject. I then quoted them word for word. You were wrong about that. I have read all of the New Testament and all of the Gospels many times. I just don't try and make everyone believe the way I interperet them.

[OkieBerto]

You are seeing the world with a filter...

I see the world with out a filter, and religious beliefs are the filter.

I can't even imagine so nothing I can say would likely be helpful to you at this point in your life. All the best.

Actually, it would of helped if you actually saw me as a normal person and not a traumatized former Christian. All the best to you as well.

[Prunepicker]

Actually I preached the Bible to you in another thread because you claimed
there were no verses about a certain subject. I then quoted them word
for word. You were wrong about that.

So I was wrong about something. I'm right about what I just posted.

I have read all of the New Testament and all of the Gospels many times.

Then you shouldn't have any problem realizing Christian behavior from
non Christian behavior. However, your posts show otherwise.

I just don't try and make everyone believe the way I interperet them.

What are you trying to say? This sentence doesn't make sense.

[Prunepicker]

by your opinion.

No, it's not an opinion. The act of baptizing doesn't remove sin. Can you
show in the New Testament that it does remove sin? That would be
interesting.

[zookeeper]

"Let's Talk About Prayer....Part II" seems to be going just...well...about like Part I that got locked.

[OkieBerto]

No, it's not an opinion. The act of baptizing doesn't remove sin. Can you
show in the New Testament that it does remove sin? That would be
interesting.

Shall I use another word, washes away sin? Acts 22:16

Maybe I should of used the words, forgiveness of those sins? Acts 2:38