Let's Talk About Prayer...Part II

[OkieBerto]

When I lead my family in a prayer at mealtime, whether at home, or a restaurant, it's simply to acknowledge that I and my family believe God provided what He did to us, that we don't deserve it, yet He provided it anyway in accordance with His sovereign will - and to offer a tiny amount of thanks in my wholly inadequate way.

I can't control anyone else's interpretation or thought or notion of why or how I pray. And the results of prayer are far, far too complex for me to expect to recognize the exact consequence - all I know is that we are exhorted to pray, and to do so constantly, and try as best I can to keep my prayers in a manner that suits Psalm 19:14:

Why would one not deserve food and shelter and Love from God?

I really appreciate your answer. It wasn't telling me how to pray, but merely stating why you do it. I wish you believed you deserved food and water and shelter. I believe it is a right to all.

[Dubya61]

... At least one included a typical baptist alter call..."if anyone here has not accepted Jesus as their personal lord and savior, come forward now and be saved..." ...

First, you're right. That was inappropriate, but it made me chuckle. I suddenly thought of all the times I was on the phone with some one I did NOT love in a familial way but the typical "sign off" that I employ with my family ("Love ya, bye") escaped just before I hung up.

[OkieBerto]

I've wondered that if they have a prayer before the game for player safety and health and somebody gets hurt, does that mean God didn't like that player?

No it means he stated that praying publicly does not work. So, like I said, it is just a display of religious belief not a conversation with God.

[kelroy55]

Why would one not deserve food and shelter and Love from God?

I really appreciate your answer. It wasn't telling me how to pray, but merely stating why you do it. I wish you believed you deserved food and water and shelter. I believe it is a right to all.

but denied to many

[PennyQuilts]

So you are saying prayer can fix things?

You are asking me if I think it can "Fix" things? I don't even know how to respond to the notion. I suspect we are using some of the same words but with different meanings.

[PennyQuilts]

No it means he stated that praying publicly does not work. So, like I said, it is just a display of religious belief not a conversation with God.

How do you know that? What empirical evidence do you have that this doesn't constitute a conversation with a spiritual being? If this is just a question of you don't believe in god or that he cares, that's merely an opinion. You can't prove one way or the other if a conversation is taking place.

[PennyQuilts]

Why would one not deserve food and shelter and Love from God?

I really appreciate your answer. It wasn't telling me how to pray, but merely stating why you do it. I wish you believed you deserved food and water and shelter. I believe it is a right to all.

I don't know how old you are but an entitlement mindset is very recent. In religious terms, particularly christian, the notion is that all good things are gifts from god - the emphasis on "gifts." You don't earn them, you aren't entitled to them, to assume you earned them suggests god is constrained by some sort of contract and most - or at least many - don't think an omnipotent god has that sort of constraints put upon him/her by a human. It also assumes that man is somehow innately worthy of the gifts from god and this runs afoul of christian theology set out in other threads and too lengthy to go into any detail, here. The theology is that man is innately flawed and god doesn't "owe" him anything - God is the ultimate sovereign who can give and take away as he/she sees fit.

Some of the fundamentalist christian churches/sects teach that by virtue of jumping through certain hoops god has made a deal to do what they ask or provide blessings. In my research, that is a distinctively minority position in the overall christian landscape but you see a lot of that in some fundamentalist churches. In other churches, that is just this side of heresy for the reasons I started out with. To equate prayer to "fixing" things or asking whether it "works" is not the mainstream christian position although many christians end up treating prayer kind of like magic.

But to sum up, the idea that food, water and the like is some sort of "right" (in terms of religion) is one of the huge disconnects between people of faith and people not of faith.

Christianity in this country is, and always has been, a couple of generations away from going away. Young secular people, today, not only don't follow the faith, they honestly don't understand the teachings, the attitudes or way people who do think. They definitely try to understand but applying what they believe and how they see the world results in coming up with theories that rarely get it right - the concepts are just too foreign and fundamental. That is not meant as criticism - it is merely an observation that to understand the christian faith, you have to back up and start distinguishing the differences in world view and attitude from the last generation to even have a platform to understand the theology.

[Dennis Heaton]

2 Chronicles 7:14 (NKJV)

If My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

[BBatesokc]

Matthew 6:1
"Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven."

Most prayer I see is public...and it is done so that people will notice. I am sorry, but those people who prayer before every meal, even at McDonald's, yeah that doesn't get ya anywhere. So what is the point of public prayer? It is to show off their righteousness or their right to Heaven. The sad part is, even if there was a God listening to these prayers, he says that they will not be rewarded. Therefore, you are just talking to yourself.

I have seen a lot of believers in Texas trying to pray for rain, in a very public way, and these are the same people that do not believe in climate change. So if your pray isn't working, why aren't you trying to figure out why?

As pretty much a nonbeliever, all I've got to say is I'll take the attitude of those who pray over their Big Mac over the attitude/mindset you're displaying in your posts any day.

As I've stated before, I'm often surrounded by those of faith (all different faiths). Some of them gather and literally pray for hours upon hours. Others simply pause in silence before eating a meal or to focus on the positive in their life or even to acknowledge how much they don't have control over what goes on around them. Regardless, I couldn't define any of their denominations unless they specifically told me. All I know is their common good and their common positive attitudes - attitudes I prefer to include in my circle of influence.

I've known many a faith hypocrite, but I certainly don't let those few allow me to paint them all with the same cynical brush.

I can't imagine seeing the world, let alone the faithful, through your eyes.

[BBatesokc]

So you are saying prayer can fix things?

I absolutely think prayer can have a positive influence on 'things' (which is about as close to 'fixing things' as I can come). While I don't think their is some form of a God that is specifically listening to and answering prayer, I definitely think the focus and positive attitude that comes with real prayer influences outcomes in one's lives. Call it Karma, call it your ora, call it positive thinking... I personally think its all about the same and the world is better for it.

The people I know that practice some sort of faith are far happier than those people I know that not only reject all forms of faith but also maintain a pretty cynical attitude in general.

[Of Sound Mind]

I wish you believed you deserved food and water and shelter. I believe it is a right to all.

but denied to many

That seems to belie nature/natural laws.

[White Peacock]

To the subject, I'm 100% in favor of the First Amendment and all that it entails (within moral reason*). It may make me gag to see mass showings of the Christian faith put on display, but as long as they're not infringing on other folks' rights, then they're fully within their own.

I learned as a teenager that if you have an alternate/controversial faith, it's best to keep it to yourself in certain parts of the world. Oklahoma is one of them. I learned this by way of harassment, threats, and assaults. Not from my peers, but from adults. So as I grew older, I learned not to wear my faith on my sleeve, given that not everybody shares the sentiment that I shared in the above paragraph. My experiences have indeed cemented my belief that people should be allowed to be left peacefully to their own devices as long as they're not hurting anyone.

[Jim Kyle]

The people I know that practice some sort of faith are far happier than those people I know that not only reject all forms of faith but also maintain a pretty cynical attitude in general.

The boffins who deal in systems research are fond of something called "the Pareto principle" which holds that in any complex situation, about 20% of the input controls about 80% of the output -- regardless of the variables involved!

Over the years this principle has been detected and confirmed in many situations.

And years ago, I came to the conclusion that it even applies to human interactions with other humans and with their environment. Specifically, I found that over time, about 10% of those I dealt with were inherently "good" folk, another 10% were "evil" (and as a police reporter, I moved in many of the same circles that you track today), and the remaining 80% simply reflected my own expectations back at me! The Pareto conclusion was that both cynicism and pollyannaism were just Pareto at work, and either mindset then influenced my outlook toward the remaining 80% who reflect my own outlook back to me. Thus I could find the world to be only 10% good, or 10% evil.

That's the point at which I truly became laid back and determined to expect the best from everyone until events proved otherwise. So what has this to do with prayer? To me, it's a form of applying the teachings, in practice. Yes, it's led to my being conned a few times -- but it has also led to some deep friendships, and definitely to a more relaxed way of life. And in my opinion, living the teachings is far more important than verbalizing them.

[Prunepicker]

... Their God clearly states that it doesn't reach him if you do it among others.

Where does He say that? It's not to be found anywhere in the Bible.

[Prunepicker]

... I wish you believed you deserved food and water and shelter. I believe it
is a right to all.

Food, water and shelter aren't rights but you have the right to seek them.

[OkieBerto]

Christianity in this country is, and always has been, a couple of generations away from going away. Young secular people, today, not only don't follow the faith, they honestly don't understand the teachings, the attitudes or way people who do think. They definitely try to understand but applying what they believe and how they see the world results in coming up with theories that rarely get it right - the concepts are just too foreign and fundamental. That is not meant as criticism - it is merely an observation that to understand the christian faith, you have to back up and start distinguishing the differences in world view and attitude from the last generation to even have a platform to understand the theology.

I totally agree with this statement. Though religion will always be around. The majority of the world has a belief system. It isn't going away in any of our lifetimes.

[OkieBerto]

The people I know that practice some sort of faith are far happier than those people I know that not only reject all forms of faith but also maintain a pretty cynical attitude in general.

They are happier because they refuse to see what their actions have caused in our world. They are happier because a book told them they can live for eternity and go to Heaven with their Creator. I really wish I had that type of faith. Trust me, me as a non-believer is hard. I was raised in the church and now I can stand seeing people I love totally ignore the world they live in.

[Dubya61]

They are happier because they refuse to see what their actions have caused in our world. They are happier because a book told them they can live for eternity and go to Heaven with their Creator. I really wish I had that type of faith. Trust me, me as a non-believer is hard. I was raised in the church and now I can['t?] stand seeing people I love totally ignore the world they live in.

Did I understand you right? Is my edit above correct?
Why do you say that believers ignore the world they live in?

[OkieBerto]

I can't imagine seeing the world, let alone the faithful, through your eyes.

This coming from a man that has done so much to show us the cruelty of human trafficking. I see humans slowly killing themselves by destroying the earth, and then praying to a God to help them, which they can only have hope that he exists.

[OkieBerto]

Did I understand you right? Is my edit above correct?
Why do you say that believers ignore the world they live in?

yes, your edit is correct. Science is being ignored because their faith says God can control weather. They ignore contraception because God creates all living things and has a reason for it. They ignore common sense for Faith.

[PennyQuilts]

They are happier because they refuse to see what their actions have caused in our world. They are happier because a book told them they can live for eternity and go to Heaven with their Creator.

Er... No.

[OkieBerto]

Er... No.

They are happier because they don't take the blame. They believe they have done nothing wrong. They are happier because it is easy for them to deny it.

[PennyQuilts]

yes, your edit is correct. Science is being ignored because their faith says God can control weather. They ignore contraception because God creates all living things and has a reason for it. They ignore common sense for Faith.

Are you trying to say that this set of beliefs defines or is broadly shared by Christians? I don't see it and just for the record, plenty of scientific types are also Christian. Moreover, even the Catholics who are the biggest Christian denomination opposed to birth control in this country overwhelmingly use birth control. Your presumptions about what Christians believe beyond matters of faith are way off the mark. I have to wonder if your exposure to Christianity has been limited to a very limited and fundamentalist group of Believers. But even then, I've known plenty of fundamentalists who believe in birth control and mainstream science.

[PennyQuilts]

They are happier because they don't take the blame. They believe they have done nothing wrong. They are happier because it is easy for them to deny it.

Factor in the fundamental teaching on sin that nearly all Christians share and get back to me.

[OkieBerto]

One can be baptized in Christ to rid sin. Also, some believe the crucifixion of Christ washed away all sins. It seems there are ways to get out of paying for those sins.