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Thread: Let's Talk About Prayer...Part II

  1. #1

    Default Let's Talk About Prayer...Part II

    NOTE: This IS NOT an attempt to circumvent the Administrator's decision to close the Thread, "Let's Talk About Prayer."

    It was my intention to bring to the discussion, the recent Supreme Court decision regarding "praying in public."

    Just a reminder...please keep it civil.

    __________________________________________________

    "Supreme Court ruling tilts law to the right on public prayer"

    A Supreme Court divided along both ideological and religious lines cleared the way Monday for local officials to open public meetings with explicitly Christian prayers, ruling that the Constitution does not require government-sponsored religious invocations to be "addressed only to a generic God.".

    The 5-4 opinion puts the court's stamp of approval on a trend in conservative communities to include more overtly religious references in public meetings.

    It is also likely to be read as implicitly sanctioning Christian and other religious displays on public property, including Christmas trees and Nativity scenes during the holiday season.

    For decades, the court has been closely split on the proper role of religion in government settings. Monday's opinion tilts the law to the right and gives local officials considerably more freedom.

    Justices rejected the idea — which had prevailed in previous rulings — that official invocations should be limited to "nonsectarian" references, such as the "Almighty" or "Heavenly Father." Rather, the court said Christian clerics may be invited to deliver prayers that invoke the name of Jesus Christ so long as no one is forced to join in saying the prayer.

    Justice Anthony M. Kennedy, who spoke for the court's conservative majority, said those who "feel excluded or disrespected" by such religious invocations could simply ignore them. "Adults often encounter speech they find disagreeable," he said.

    Throughout American history, he added, "ceremonial prayer" has been a regular part of public gatherings. Judges may not act as "censors of religious speech" by telling government officials that they've crossed the line by permitting Christian messages.

    The dissenters, led by Justice Elena Kagan, said the court had crossed a line by approving a policy of "religious favoritism." She said the majority might view the case differently if a "mostly Muslim town" decided to open its meetings with Muslim prayers or a Jewish community always invited a rabbi to open its official proceedings.

    "When the citizens of this country approach their government, they do so only as Americans, not as members of one faith or other," she wrote. "They should not confront government-sponsored worship that divides them along religious lines."

    The five justices in the majority — Kennedy, Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. and Justices Antonin Scalia, Clarence Thomas and Samuel A. Alito Jr. — are Catholic. Three of the four dissenters — Kagan and Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen G. Breyer — are Jewish. The fourth, Justice Sonia Sotomayor, was raised Catholic but is not a regular churchgoer.

    The case began when a town supervisor in Greece, N.Y., near Rochester, decided to invite local clerics to open the town's monthly meetings with a prayer. Between 1999 and 2007, all of the participating ministers were Christian.

    Two residents who regularly attended the meetings, Susan Galloway, who is Jewish, and Linda Stephens, who is not religious, complained to the supervisor and then filed suit. They contended the town's policy of sponsoring Christian prayers violated the 1st Amendment's ban on an "establishment of religion."

    No one disputed that the town could open its meetings with a religious invocation. The Supreme Court in 1983 upheld legislative prayers in a Nebraska case. But it was unclear whether such official prayers could invoke Jesus Christ.

    The U.S. 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals ruled in 2012 that the Greece town council had gone too far, citing the "steady drumbeat" of Christian prayers.

    That decision relied heavily on the opinions of former Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, who helped forge a previous majority around the idea that the government may not endorse or favor any particular religion.

    But the current Supreme Court reversed the 2nd Circuit ruling and rejected the lawsuit. Ceremonial prayers are constitutional, Kennedy said, so long as they do not "denigrate nonbelievers or religious minorities, threaten damnation or preach conversion."

    Thomas would have gone further and said the 1st Amendment does not forbid states or cities from establishing an official religion. Thomas says the 1st Amendment, when it was adopted, limited only the federal government.

    Though the case involved a town council, the ruling applies to all levels of government, including state and county boards.

    The Alliance Defending Freedom, an Arizona-based religious rights group that defended the town, said the ruling had "affirmed again that Americans are free to pray. Speech censors should have no power to silence volunteers who pray for their communities just as the founders did," said David Cortman, a senior counsel for the group.

    Americans United for Separation of Church and State, a Washington-based advocacy group that represented Galloway and Stephens, said it was disappointed. "The Supreme Court just relegated millions of Americans — both believers and nonbelievers — to second-class citizenship," said the Rev. Barry Lynn, the group's executive director. "Now all who attend meetings of their local boards could be subjected to the religion of the majority."

    Bill Reilich, town supervisor of Greece, said Monday that the prayer practice would continue and that anyone who wanted to come and offer a prayer could do so.

    "It's freedom of speech," Reilich said at a news conference. "It's beyond even religion. It's reaffirming what our country was founded on. It's much bigger than the town of Greece."

    david.savage@latimes.com, May 05, 2014

  2. #2

    Default Re: Let's Talk About Prayer...Part II

    I have mixed feelings about public prayer. I think most are OK with it as long as it's their 'God' being prayed to. I can imaging the reaction to a Muslim prayer at a football game in the south.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Let's Talk About Prayer...Part II

    My opinion on public prayer is that all should follow the explicit command set forth in the Gospel according to Matthew: "go into thy closet and shut the door."

    Several decades ago, a Methodist minister wrote a number of best-selling novels based on this passage. Google for "Magnificent Obsession" to find one of the best-known samples of his work...

  4. #4

    Default Re: Let's Talk About Prayer...Part II

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Heaton View Post
    Let's Talk About Prayer...Part II
    How About Let's Not...Part Infinity

  5. #5

    Default Re: Let's Talk About Prayer...Part II

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kyle View Post
    My opinion on public prayer is that all should follow the explicit command set forth in the Gospel according to Matthew: "go into thy closet and shut the door."
    "But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly." Matthew 6:6 (NKJV)

  6. #6

    Default Re: Let's Talk About Prayer...Part II

    Quote Originally Posted by Throckmorton View Post
    How About Let's Not...Part Infinity
    Did you mean..."affinity?"

  7. Default Re: Let's Talk About Prayer...Part II

    Quote Originally Posted by kelroy55 View Post
    I have mixed feelings about public prayer. I think most are OK with it as long as it's their 'God' being prayed to. I can imaging the reaction to a Muslim prayer at a football game in the south.
    I actually think most mature rational people are fine with public prayer regardless of the specific denomination, faith, beliefs, etc.

    I'm agnostic (leans mostly to atheist) and I have spent all of my life surrounded by people from all different faiths. Many of which participate or instigate some sort of a group/public prayer from time-to-time. Its never been an issue with me or anyone I've known of similar beliefs. I've never heard a public prayer that didn't have a positive message that anyone from any faith couldn't/shouldn't support.

    You can be praying to a house plant for all I care as long as it inspires you to live a life that takes the path of do as little intentional harm as possible.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Let's Talk About Prayer...Part II

    Quote Originally Posted by BBatesokc View Post
    I actually think most mature rational people are fine with public prayer regardless of the specific denomination, faith, beliefs, etc.

    I'm agnostic (leans mostly to atheist) and I have spent all of my life surrounded by people from all different faiths. Many of which participate or instigate some sort of a group/public prayer from time-to-time. Its never been an issue with me or anyone I've known of similar beliefs. I've never heard a public prayer that didn't have a positive message that anyone from any faith couldn't/shouldn't support.

    You can be praying to a house plant for all I care as long as it inspires you to live a life that takes the path of do as little intentional harm as possible.
    I agree but there are a lot of people out there who aren't mature rational people.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Let's Talk About Prayer...Part II

    Quote Originally Posted by kelroy55 View Post
    I agree but there are a lot of people out there who aren't mature rational people.
    That will never change. They shouldn't be the ones we decide gets to decide societal norms.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Let's Talk About Prayer...Part II

    Quote Originally Posted by PennyQuilts View Post
    That will never change. They shouldn't be the ones we decide gets to decide societal norms.
    Agreed -- but in this era of Political Correctness, they are!

  11. #11

    Default Re: Let's Talk About Prayer...Part II

    Quote Originally Posted by PennyQuilts View Post
    That will never change. They shouldn't be the ones we decide gets to decide societal norms.
    and who gets to decide their voice doesn't count?

  12. #12

    Default Re: Let's Talk About Prayer...Part II

    Quote Originally Posted by kelroy55 View Post
    and who gets to decide their voice doesn't count?
    The voices of reason. Which - if you will take note are defined in this thread as rational mature folk.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Let's Talk About Prayer...Part II

    I noted in the earlier thread, and will do so again here. The district court applied existing law. The 2nd circuit reversed.
    The S.Ct. didn't go out carving brave new territory, in my opinion, by holding the 2nd. Cir. got it wrong under existing law.
    If memory serves, the town in question was not barring everyone but one faith to the exclusion of all other faiths.

    Just about anyone, irrespective of their faith or lack of a faith, can find a way to be offended .. if they are of a mind to do so.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Let's Talk About Prayer...Part II

    I do not have a problem with public prayer. However, I do have an issue with people prothletizing during theses events or refusing to make it inclusive by making it specifically sectarian.

    In the last year, one of my kids' school sports began each game with a prayer over the stadium PA. At least one included a typical baptist alter call..."if anyone here has not accepted Jesus as their personal lord and savior, come forward now and be saved..."

    Begs the question of where they were intending the unsaved to come forward to, the 50 yard line? Were the refs qualified to take people's confession of faith?

    This, of course, violates the Courts' rule that prayer is fine, proselytizing is not.

    Every prayer all season was overtly Christian even though there were virtually every major religion present in the US represented on the team. It's Oklahoma. People don't think good manners includes respect for non-Christians.

  15. #15
    Prunepicker Guest

    Default Re: Let's Talk About Prayer...Part II

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Heaton View Post
    "But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your
    door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who
    sees in secret will reward you openly." Matthew 6:6 (NKJV)
    To put this into context, Jesus isn't saying that public prayer is wrong. He's
    centering on the hypocrites, and specifically the pharisees. The point is to
    not be a spectacle and build yourself up while putting down others.

  16. Default Re: Let's Talk About Prayer...Part II

    Matthew 6:1
    "Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven."

    Most prayer I see is public...and it is done so that people will notice. I am sorry, but those people who prayer before every meal, even at McDonald's, yeah that doesn't get ya anywhere. So what is the point of public prayer? It is to show off their righteousness or their right to Heaven. The sad part is, even if there was a God listening to these prayers, he says that they will not be rewarded. Therefore, you are just talking to yourself.

    I have seen a lot of believers in Texas trying to pray for rain, in a very public way, and these are the same people that do not believe in climate change. So if your pray isn't working, why aren't you trying to figure out why?

  17. #17

    Default Re: Let's Talk About Prayer...Part II

    Quote Originally Posted by OkieBerto View Post
    Matthew 6:1
    …I am sorry, but those people who prayer before every meal, even at McDonald's, yeah that doesn't get ya anywhere…
    Why's that? A prayer before a meal (for most) is about giving thanks to God for what He has provided. What is so offensive about that?

  18. Default Re: Let's Talk About Prayer...Part II

    Quote Originally Posted by Of Sound Mind View Post
    What is so offensive about that?
    I never stated I was offended by it. I am just saying what is the point? Their God clearly states that it doesn't reach him if you do it among others. Are you offended by my statement?

  19. #19

    Default Re: Let's Talk About Prayer...Part II

    Quote Originally Posted by OkieBerto View Post
    I never stated I was offended by it. I am just saying what is the point? Their God clearly states that it doesn't reach him if you do it among others. Are you offended by my statement?
    I wasn't offended by your statement, just perplexed. Your subsequent answer clears up your position by demonstrating you clearly don't understand (and perhaps don't care to understand) what "God clearly states." The above cited passage and other relevant passages don't preclude praying in public places; rather they admonish those who make a public spectacle of their piety with lofty, yet often vacuous prayers that they wouldn't necessarily do in the same way in the privacy of their own home or closet. That isn't the same as a person or family who regularly offers a prayer of thanks before meals both in the privacy of their homes as well as in public view at a restaurant table.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Let's Talk About Prayer...Part II

    Part of paganism includes cultivating an attitude of gratitude and respect for what you have and, if you eat meat, to consider the sacrifice made by an animal to which you benefited. Likewise, we are encouraged to appreciate the effort made by others to provide nourishment (i.e., bless the hands that prepared this meal).

    I am not one who publicly says grace over a meal but IMO, an attitude of gratitude, thanks and appreciation is good for the soul and society. That's a little eddy of nonoffensive spirituality in the hustle and bustle of life and I don't know anyone who does that in an effort to prosyletize or show off. In these days, it tends to draw unwanted attention.

    IMO, we should never reach a point where we take food and shelter for granted and saying grace reminds us of how blessed we are. Many are not so fortunate. If nothing else, this part of the conversation in this thread reminds me of that.

  21. Default Re: Let's Talk About Prayer...Part II

    It is clear that people interpret the Bible as they see fit in their own lives. Basically I was just told how prayer works. Thank you kind religious people. My problem with public prayer is that most religious people think that it will fix problems in their personal lives and problems with the world in general. The quote, "all we can do know is prayer," is being used so often that we stop thinking of ways to fix problems with our brains. If God did create us, then he created that brain of yours. So use it and stop trying to have God fix everything for you. Stop using prayer as a crutch. I have not heard once that public prayer led to saving millions of people or changed our weather patterns or helped the stock market. I am sorry, I just do get it, but really thanks for telling me how it works.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Let's Talk About Prayer...Part II

    Quote Originally Posted by OkieBerto View Post
    It is clear that people interpret the Bible as they see fit in their own lives. Basically I was just told how prayer works. Thank you kind religious people. My problem with public prayer is that most religious people think that it will fix problems in their personal lives and problems with the world in general. The quote, "all we can do know is prayer," is being used so often that we stop thinking of ways to fix problems with our brains. If God did create us, then he created that brain of yours. So use it and stop trying to have God fix everything for you. Stop using prayer as a crutch. I have not heard once that public prayer led to saving millions of people or changed our weather patterns or helped the stock market. I am sorry, I just do get it, but really thanks for telling me how it works.
    You've taken an unnecessary and erroneous leap. More prayful people adopt the "God helps those who help themselves" mentality than those that sit back and rely on god - and nothing in this thread suggests people routinely rely on god rather than their own initiative. I've been around religious people all my life and I personally believe in the power of prayer. That being said, I don't know anyone who, as a life strategy relies on prayer rather than their own acts. To suggest they do strikes me as a hammer looking for a nail.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Let's Talk About Prayer...Part II

    Quote Originally Posted by Edmond_Outsider View Post
    I do not have a problem with public prayer. However, I do have an issue with people prothletizing during theses events or refusing to make it inclusive by making it specifically sectarian.

    In the last year, one of my kids' school sports began each game with a prayer over the stadium PA. At least one included a typical baptist alter call..."if anyone here has not accepted Jesus as their personal lord and savior, come forward now and be saved..."

    Begs the question of where they were intending the unsaved to come forward to, the 50 yard line? Were the refs qualified to take people's confession of faith?

    This, of course, violates the Courts' rule that prayer is fine, proselytizing is not.

    Every prayer all season was overtly Christian even though there were virtually every major religion present in the US represented on the team. It's Oklahoma. People don't think good manners includes respect for non-Christians.

    I've wondered that if they have a prayer before the game for player safety and health and somebody gets hurt, does that mean God didn't like that player?

  24. #24

    Default Re: Let's Talk About Prayer...Part II

    Quote Originally Posted by OkieBerto View Post
    It is clear that people interpret the Bible as they see fit in their own lives. Basically I was just told how prayer works. Thank you kind religious people. My problem with public prayer is that most religious people think that it will fix problems in their personal lives and problems with the world in general. The quote, "all we can do know is prayer," is being used so often that we stop thinking of ways to fix problems with our brains. If God did create us, then he created that brain of yours. So use it and stop trying to have God fix everything for you. Stop using prayer as a crutch. I have not heard once that public prayer led to saving millions of people or changed our weather patterns or helped the stock market. I am sorry, I just do get it, but really thanks for telling me how it works.
    I cannot speak for anyone other than myself.

    This is not how I view prayer. It is not a magical incantation to a genie in the hopes that I will get a wish granted.

    Prayer is, for me, a personal humility accepted with desire and exhortation for us to pray to our sovereign God. Sometimes, private, personal prayer is the very hardest of all, because it is there where I am most exposed (certainly more to myself than to God), and have to come to grips with my own sin and shortcomings as a person. It is in that vein that a verse just shortly after 6:1 that has really compelled me to be humble in all of my prayer - and that's Matthew 6:7:

    "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that
    they shall be heard for their much speaking"
    Prayer must be a heart exercise of faith. It's an act of sacrifice because it is an express acknowledgement that we are not in control, when most of us desperately want to be, and want the world to know it. That's our nature. That's "heart aspect" of prayer what this entire first portion of Matthew is all about - doing it for the sake of showing everyone else, which is obviously an empty effort. And I think a great many in the broader Christian community should take this particular scripture with greater, personal weight, emphasis, important (and none of those are precisely the right words). If I am asked to lead a prayer in my Sunday School classroom, I do so with a heavy sense of responsibility that goes along with intercessory prayer. It mustn't be about me, and my leading a prayer makes that even more difficult. I lament so much the fact that so many view prayer as only a "do this for me, to that for me" experience. And if that's how Christians are treating it, it's pretty tough to blame others if that's how its being perceived.

    When I lead my family in a prayer at mealtime, whether at home, or a restaurant, it's simply to acknowledge that I and my family believe God provided what He did to us, that we don't deserve it, yet He provided it anyway in accordance with His sovereign will - and to offer a tiny amount of thanks in my wholly inadequate way.

    I can't control anyone else's interpretation or thought or notion of why or how I pray. And the results of prayer are far, far too complex for me to expect to recognize the exact consequence - all I know is that we are exhorted to pray, and to do so constantly, and try as best I can to keep my prayers in a manner that suits Psalm 19:14:

    Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

  25. Default Re: Let's Talk About Prayer...Part II

    Quote Originally Posted by PennyQuilts View Post
    You've taken an unnecessary and erroneous leap. More prayful people adopt the "God helps those who help themselves" mentality than those that sit back and rely on god - and nothing in this thread suggests people routinely rely on god rather than their own initiative. I've been around religious people all my life and I personally believe in the power of prayer. That being said, I don't know anyone who, as a life strategy relies on prayer rather than their own acts. To suggest they do strikes me as a hammer looking for a nail.
    So you are saying prayer can fix things?

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