Potential Tulsa - OKC Rail Line Sale

[Buffalo Bill]

Are they selling? Looks like we will find out Monday:

http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/newsm...n_advisory.pdf

Commissioners are expected to vote on recommendations from the Secretaries of Commerce, Transportation, Agriculture, Energy and Environment and Finance regarding sale or no-sale of the Sooner Sub rail line. The nearly 98-mile segment of state-owned rail line runs from east of Oklahoma City to Sapulpa.

[Buffalo Bill]

Looks like they're selling to Stillwater Central. I didn't stick around for the Commission vote. Seemed like a well thought out process.

[LakeEffect]

Watco (parent of SLCC) is celebrating the win. Hopefully it DOES lead to easier passenger rail connections.

If anyone forgot the real reason why this line is being sold, Watco included the following hashtag in its Tweet: #crudebyrail

In fact, if Watco continues its partnership with Iowa Pacific regarding passenger rail and succeeds, the State might be able to switch its studies and support of an OKC-TUL Amtrak connection to purely an OKC-Kansas connection.

http://www.watcocompanies.com/Media/...onerSub_PR.pdf

[Urban Pioneer]

This is actually a very postive development over being sold to BNSF. Iowa Pacific is looking to continue their excursion trains and your right about Amtrak Cafebouef.

[BG918]

Unfortunately without federal and/or state subsidies I don't think Watco will be able to make the necessary improvements needed to really make this line work. In it current state it will never work for passenger rail outside of excursion trains.

Why no push for Amtrak on this route? Connecting the state's two largest cities and a combined 2.3 million people seems like it should be a higher priority.

[Just the facts]

Why no push for Amtrak on this route? Connecting the state's two largest cities and a combined 2.3 million people seems like it should be a higher priority.

Because Amtrak isn't very good at running a railroad.

[catch22]

no. but they are a reputable company.

I would be 100 times more likely to buy an Amtrak ticket than I would some company I have never heard of, especially if I was from out of town.

I was actually quite pleased with the Amtrak trip I took in Southern California last fall. Service was on time both ways, and was quite comfortable, and overall great experience.

[ljbab728]

Oklahoma Transportation Commission votes to sell rail line for $75 million | News OK

Daily passenger rail service between Midwest City and Sapulpa could come as early as this fall under a $75 million sale approved unanimously Monday by the Oklahoma Transportation Commission.

Dedicated shuttle service would enable passengers to get from the ends of the line to locations in and around Oklahoma City and Tulsa, according to the proposal submitted by purchaser Stillwater Central Railroad, LLC.

Company officials said they hope eventually to reach agreements with other railroad companies that would allow railroad passengers to travel by train all the way from downtown Tulsa to downtown Oklahoma City.

[Just the facts]

I would be 100 times more likely to buy an Amtrak ticket than I would some company I have never heard of, especially if I was from out of town.

So you would be reluctant to buy a ticket from Caltrain, ACE, METRA, LIRR, Metrorail, FEC, or SEPTA?

[DavidD_NorthOKC]

I think the Iowa Pacific / WATCO combination could be the best outcome for establishing passenger service between OKC and Tulsa. They are motivated to do so and the revelation that BNSF is required to permit several trains to use the right of way from Sapulpa to downtown Tulsa only make the service more viable and likely. They have the framework for an operating agreement already and WATCO is going to continue to upgrade the line.

Amtrak can be good but they are often victims of poor leadership and the freight railroads blatantly violating the operating agreements that are designed to keep Amtrak trains on time. Amtrak has other issues far above the actual operating organization though, so for this particular case, I think the Iowa Pacific is going to turn out better.

[Snowman]

I think the Iowa Pacific / WATCO combination could be the best outcome for establishing passenger service between OKC and Tulsa. They are motivated to do so and the revelation that BNSF is required to permit several trains to use the right of way from Sapulpa to downtown Tulsa only make the service more viable and likely. They have the framework for an operating agreement already and WATCO is going to continue to upgrade the line.

Amtrak can be good but they are often victims of poor leadership and the freight railroads blatantly violating the operating agreements that are designed to keep Amtrak trains on time. Amtrak has other issues far above the actual operating organization though, so for this particular case, I think the Iowa Pacific is going to turn out better.

Arn't they only required to do so on the Tulsa side?

[Just the facts]

I love it that they are required to establish passenger service, and if they fail to do so pay a penalty and the state has the right to run passenger service. I am blown away that BNSF only offered $25 million. That is actually insulting.

[DavidD_NorthOKC]

Arn't they only required to do so on the Tulsa side?

I do not understand what you are asking.

If you mean the requirement for access to the BNSF right of way to downtown Tulsa but not OKC at this time, then yes you are correct. I am confident the city of OKC will be able to work out an arrangement with UP and BNSF to get service to the new intermodal hub. It might take a while and be a painful process, but it has been done in countless other cities and there is no reason it cannot be done here.

[DavidD_NorthOKC]

I love it that they are required to establish passenger service, and if they fail to do so pay a penalty and the state has the right to run passenger service. I am blown away that BNSF only offered $25 million. That is actually insulting.

I agree - WATCO obviously values the line and the customers they have on the line far more than BNSF. BNSF likely would have abandoned the line (again) as soon as the oil business started decreasing.

I am a bit concerned about the disparity in the bids though. Why would BNSF only offer 1/3 of the WATCO bid? But if the line was going to be sold, this is the best outcome. It would have been a travesty to sell to BNSF after all the investment WATCO has made in the infrastructure and rebuilding the customer base.

[LakeEffect]

I agree - WATCO obviously values the line and the customers they have on the line far more than BNSF. BNSF likely would have abandoned the line (again) as soon as the oil business started decreasing.

I am a bit concerned about the disparity in the bids though. Why would BNSF only offer 1/3 of the WATCO bid? But if the line was going to be sold, this is the best outcome. It would have been a travesty to sell to BNSF after all the investment WATCO has made in the infrastructure and rebuilding the customer base.

Maybe BNSF didn't think the competition would be strong? Hard to believe they'd underestimate it that much. They may have also just not wanted it and threw their bid in to be nice to the State. That type of thing is not unheard of...

[Just the facts]

So let's say UP doesn't want to let passenger trains cross their tracks and they pull a 'canal-river connection' stunt again, does UPs 'rights' extend from the center of the Earth, through their tracks, and into outer space? How far below or above their tracks does one have to go before UP permission isn't required?

[LakeEffect]

So let's say UP doesn't want to let passenger trains cross their tracks and they pull a 'canal-river connection' stunt again, does UPs 'rights' extend from the center of the Earth, through their tracks, and into outer space? How far below or above their tracks does one have to go before UP permission isn't required?

Deep. I'm no railroad law expert, but in Oklahoma, their rights are very, very strong.

[Urban Pioneer]

Ironically, WATCO/Stillwater Central is in a very strong position to negotiate with Union Pacific. UP supported their company in being awarded the sale. Union Pacific has customers that STWC serves on the line and on other lines. So in theory, they are in a much better position to negotiate access and crossing their Main Line.

The city however, needs to step up to the plate and purchase the UP right-of-way through Bricktown. In that way they can provide a direct connection to Santa Fe Station. Stillwater Central is also in a great position to negotiate with ODOT as part of their contract finalization to mandate that access to Tulsa Union Station is maintained via the State's original sale agreement with BNSF.

Regarding AMTRAK, I am a big fan. But quite honestly, the entity really is a government sponsored rail program beholden to freight traffic. A step child of transport in essence. I think that Iowa Pacific is in a much better position with their partnership with STWC to provide service for the next several years as more money is invested in the line to increase speeds and connectivity. At some point, it is conceivable that AMTRAK might be a great connection through Tulsa to Chicago.

My only real concern is that they start passenger service up too soon without resolving these "last mile" connections in OKC and Tulsa and try to continue busing people in. They might have had great ticket sales because train travel with fine dinning is such an anomaly. To think that would last and people would continue to use buses for those connections on a regular basis would doom this line to failure.

For Iowa Pacific, OKC, and Tulsa... they need to get their ducks in a row and help ensure connections directly between OKC Santa Fe Station and Tulsa Union Station.

[Just the facts]

I agree UP, the only thing worse that no plan, is a half-baked plan predestined for failure. We might only get one shot at this.

[Snowman]

...

For Iowa Pacific, OKC, and Tulsa... they need to get their ducks in a row and help ensure connections directly between OKC Santa Fe Station and Tulsa Union Station.

Part of me wants the stop in Tulsa to be directly under the 'Center of the Universe'

[Urban Pioneer]

I agree UP, the only thing worse that no plan, is a half-baked plan predestined for failure. We might only get one shot at this.

Well I can tell you that some of the train folks out there are chomping at the bit to start service tomorrow. They need to take a breath, enjoy this as something of a victory of sorts, and work with Iowa Pacific to garner the public pressure necessary to support our sister cities resolving these "last mile" issues.

[BG918]

Part of me wants the stop in Tulsa to be directly under the 'Center of the Universe'

It's across the tracks.

[Snowman]

It's across the tracks.

I know, I just always laugh a little when I think about center of the universe being in Tulsa; it could be half over the platform and half over the track it stops

[Just the facts]

I wonder what their motivation is for not seeking public assistance. Pride, profitability, and hypocrisy didn't stop our largest corporations from asking for it.

[LakeEffect]

I think many of us get stuck in our own bubbles, even those of us that think the "public" isn't aware or being involved (pot - kettle - black). ODOT posted the public comments (letters and Resolutions) regarding the sale, and a bunch of other documents. Page through 189 pages of public comment and you'll see a wide array of interested parties. http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/Soone...20Comments.pdf The big thing here that I bet helped sway was keeping a "neutral" short line in between the big Class I railroads. The smallest Class I (KCS) even weighed in to support Watco.

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