Is society going to pot?

[Patrick]

Used to be, having a child out of wedlock was frowned upon. Used to be drugs weren't a problem. Used to be kids didn't take guns to school and murder their classmates. Used to be stores were closed on Sundays. Used to be going to church on Sundays was the norm. Used to be, families ate dinner together, and were families.

And everyone wonders why children are carrying guns to school and shooting their classmates. It's because we've destroyed the overall family structure. The family of the Leave it to Beaver days is no longer around. Women are working more hours than their husbands, and nannies are raising children. Church is a joke to most people.

Stores have given way to greediness, and the need to be open to make money, money, money.

Now it's okay to have children out of wedlock.

Why has society changed? How can we reverse the trend of declining morals in this country? Is it through electing different officials? Or is it strengthening the church?

Or does anyone really care?

[BailJumper]

Exactly what decade are you referring to when you reference "used to be?"

I don't know of a time that didn't have its social ills.

Go back just a little way and you have the 70's drug culture, segregation and women who were not allowed to vote.

Go back further and you've got religious leaders buring citizens at the stake and ruling people's lives.

It seems your issue is with morality or the lack thereof as you perceive it.

Personally, I don't see church attendance as a very good barometer. Also, I'm glad the malls are open on Sunday and can't for the life of me figure out why liquor stores are closed but bars are open.

[Patrick]

I was just opening the issue up for discussion. The above isn't necessarily how I believe. Enjoy the discussion.

I guess I was referencing more the 40's and 50's.......before the baby boomer generation. Some call it the best generation ever, because of the great morals of the time.

[BailJumper]

The 50's - you're kidding right?

The 50's are by no means the benchmark for morality. Lets see what comes to mind.... 1. War 2. Poverty 3. Low education levels 4. McCarthyism 5. Racism

[BailJumper]

I think we often suffer from "the grass is/was always greener" syndrome.

I also think that our societies herd mentality and media dependance has created many media myths, such as our schools are dangerous places where kids routinely shoot them up and everyone inside.

[bandnerd]

^^Totally agree.

And as a working woman, if I ever have kids, I plan on continuing working in some form. I find my work very rewarding and fulfilling, and I have no plans of ever giving it up until I feel I am done or no longer needed in the field.

I am not about to tie on an apron and give my husband his slippers and a drink when he comes through the door. He can get his own damn drink. I am not his mother.

Frankly, if other people want to act like idiots, then they are going to act like idiots. School children aren't always getting attacked, and many of the other gruesome things that happen in the world have always happened...the media has just become a larger presence in our lives especially since the invention of the Internet. Not everything you read is true, people.

If you want things to change, then do something about it. Don't whine and complain, DO. I do my part by teaching kids how to be good people as best as I feel I can, and educating them in the field I know, and trying to impart some basic social awareness upon them. For the most part, I think I do a good job. I let people in on the highway, I open the doors for the elderly and physically challenged, I don't ridicule people for being wrong, and I clean up after myself in every aspect of my life. I think more people just need to take responsibility for themselves and stop blaming others for their shortcomings.

[Patrick]

The 50's - you're kidding right?

The 50's are by no means the benchmark for morality. Lets see what comes to mind.... 1. War 2. Poverty 3. Low education levels 4. McCarthyism 5. Racism

Poverty and low education levels aren't signs of declining morals. Neither is war. At least we were fighting a winnable war back then.
Racism still exists today, so nothing has changed in those ranks. Oh, and BTW, I mentioned 40's as well.

[Patrick]

I respect your opinion bandnerd, but it is true that with women working, parents are spending less and less time with their children these days. That is obvious. You have to admit that we didn't have many of the immoral problems we have today within our schools back when mothers stayed at home. And I'm not being sexist in any way. If mom wants to work, I'm all for dad staying home. It works.

Really, what I'm trying to say here is that parents need to devote more time to their kids. Work isn't everything. The legacy you leave is through your kids, not through your work.

[Patrick]

I am not about to tie on an apron and give my husband his slippers and a drink when he comes through the door. He can get his own damn drink. I am not his mother.

I agree women aren't to be slaves. But in a Christian family, women should be submissive to their husbands. Men are to lead the household. The absence of men's leadership in the household can be blamed on both men for not stepping up to the plate, and on women, for trying to take over, when their role is to serve their family, not run their family.

Frankly, if other people want to act like idiots, then they are going to act like idiots. School children aren't always getting attacked, and many of the other gruesome things that happen in the world have always happened...the media has just become a larger presence in our lives especially since the invention of the Internet. Not everything you read is true, people.

Ummmm...we didn't have school shootings like we do now back in the 1920's, 30's, 40's, 50's...or even in the 60's.

If you want things to change, then do something about it. Don't whine and complain, DO. I do my part by teaching kids how to be good people as best as I feel I can, and educating them in the field I know, and trying to impart some basic social awareness upon them. For the most part, I think I do a good job. I let people in on the highway, I open the doors for the elderly and physically challenged, I don't ridicule people for being wrong, and I clean up after myself in every aspect of my life. I think more people just need to take responsibility for themselves and stop blaming others for their shortcomings.

And I do my part by volunteering in the schools that my church has adopted.

[bandnerd]

We aren't all church-oriented like you, Patrick. I don't believe my job is to be "submissive" to anyone. I do not believe the priest asked me to be so, either.

Also, while my mother worked, my father didn't. My life growing-up was just fine. I saw my mom enough to make a difference.

While I agree that parents aren't involved enough at times in kids' lives...maybe at the most important times...I do not believe for a second that a woman has to be the only person available for the kid. Why should the father have to be the bread winner?

I'm sorry. I just can't agree with you in most areas about this, Patrick. Your ideas are way too antiquated for me. However, you are a Christian man who was obviously brought up in a home where your mother was subservient to your father, and for her, I am sad. My family was not like that.

[BailJumper]

I think Patrick gets up every morning and put his blinders on and picks up his bag of stones to throw (tongue in cheek don't get all excited).

This is actually a discussion that has no right or wrong. It is all about perspective.

Patrick thinks we should all go to church, our wive's should stay home and everything would be right with the world. And that's fine - as that's one perspective.

From my perspective I find many church goers, especially the ones who feel a need to let everyone else know, are often the biggest hypocrits. Also, morality is certainly different to different people. Many people and religions find war in general to be immoral. Some would say that poverty and lack of education are often hand in hand with immorality - while some will claim the opposite is true.

I work full time and my wife works full time. I has always been that way and we love it. It is not her job to scrub the toilet, it is whomever is there at the time. We take turns making meals and while sometimes they are enjoyed around the table as a family, on occassions we invite the TV to join us in the living room to eat.

My son didn't become immoral. Instead he learned the value of hard work and to cherish the time family does have together and not to take it for granted. He gets A's and B's and even got his first real job at 14. While my wife and I prefer not to attend church, our son goes to school early for Bible study almost every morning and attends church on Wednesday nights.

While some place blame on mothers at work and a lack of fire and brimstone, I could just as easliy point to MTV, child molesting priests, and presidents who think having sex in the oval office and lying about it is okay....

See, it's all perspective (and there's always more than one).

[Easy180]

Seems like society is doing ok to me...As I sit here in my nice home on a laptop with my big screen on behind me it seems as everything is right in the world

My biggest worry right now is.........What is for lunch today

[bandnerd]

Hmmm...I'm having crispy chicken wraps for lunch Quite yummy.

BailJumper makes excellent points. Very excellent. My family was never the "fire and brimstone" type. We all helped keep the house clean. Sometimes dad made dinner, sometimes mom. My sister and I were pretty involved with dance lessons and school, so sometimes I'd be with my dad and my sister would be with my mom and we'd just have to figure it out. Most nights, though, we sat around the table for dinner together and I think that is a pretty rare thing these days. It was a rare thing in the 90's as well.

Maybe part of the problem is people try to do too much. Parents try to make their kids involved in every activity available, and never have any time to actually parent. I also think that maybe our society has been taken over by a generation of people who think it's all about "me." Why can't I have that? Why didn't I get that promotion? Why didn't my child get the lead in the school play?

Sometimes, people, it isn't about YOU.

[Patrick]

Actually, I'm just trying to stir healthy debate. My wife works, and I have no problem with it. I'm just stating an obvious belief among some evangelicals, and trying to get some healthy discussion on the matter. So don't get all carried away about my beliefs. They are actually different than you may think. In today's society, I'm all for women working if that's what they want to do. But, there are some out there that don't feel that way, and I'm simply trying to make people on here aware that those opinions exist.

Because we have mostly liberals on here, myself included, I may take the unpopular side at times for the sake of playing devil's advocate. That's not to say I'm not a Christian, and my true opinions won't always be stated. But, part of the jopb of a moderator is to stir discussion at times, not in a negative way, but in a productive way.

Anyways, good discussion on the issue. Thanks guys and gals!

[Patrick]

Hmmm...I'm having crispy chicken wraps for lunch Quite yummy.

Can I come over? LOL!

[Patrick]

My son didn't become immoral. Instead he learned the value of hard work and to cherish the time family does have together and not to take it for granted. He gets A's and B's and even got his first real job at 14. While my wife and I prefer not to attend church, our son goes to school early for Bible study almost every morning and attends church on Wednesday nights.

I agree completely. And remember also, just because mother stays at home in some families, doesn't mean she has good parenting skills. I think women can still work and be good parents.

[NE Oasis]

Church is a joke to most people.

Why has society changed? How can we reverse the trend of declining morals in this country? Is it through electing different officials? Or is it strengthening the church?

Electing different officials will not work. The "it's all about me" attitude is too ingrained for piecemeal changes to house, senate, or school board to have a meaningful impact. Church is a joke to many non church-goers. IMHO strenghtening the church is not as important an strengthening the church goer. Charges of hypocrisy are all too valid as many attend church out of obligation based on history or as a "ticket punch" for political office or job promotion. Why else would divorce AND co-habitation rates among Oklahoman Baptists be near equal of the unchurched.

[Easy180]

Electing different officials will not work. The "it's all about me" attitude is too ingrained for piecemeal changes to house, senate, or school board to have a meaningful impact. Church is a joke to many non church-goers. IMHO strenghtening the church is not as important an strengthening the church goer. Charges of hypocrisy are all too valid as many attend church out of obligation based on history or as a "ticket punch" for political office or job promotion. Why else would divorce AND co-habitation rates among Oklahoman Baptists be near equal of the unchurched.

I completely agree with the section I put in bold...I believe there is a significant percentage of church goers who just attend because it is the norm and really don't practice what Christianity preaches

It's those churchgoers that talk a big game, but on the other hand are cheating on their spouses, addicted to porn, embezzling at work that get me riled up

I completely respect the portion that does indeed walk the walk

[aintaokie]

Now I know why ex bro in law is going to church.....to impress DA office buddies and his new sweet young thang. (Left a 12 yr marriage, 4 young children, major debt for sweet young thang......now they're going to breed and start another family?) Yep, the world has gone to pot.

[okcguy]

I'm glad we don't live in the 50's anymore. Sounds like it was a very repressed and oppressed time to me.

[metro]

I think society has regressed, not progressed. I'm fairly young so I can't speak from past decades but I know people are less happy as a whole. I think society as a whole in America lost focus of what is really important in life. What are you living for? What is your purpose in life?

[Easy180]

metro...Purpose in life is easy and extremely deep

Have as much fun as humanly possible and get your hands on as many toys and electronics before you become worm food

[BailJumper]

I think society has regressed, not progressed. I'm fairly young so I can't speak from past decades but I know people are less happy as a whole. I think society as a whole in America lost focus of what is really important in life. What are you living for? What is your purpose in life?

That reminds me of when my son said, "I wish I would have lived in the past, there were so many cool things being invented and going on. Nothing happens now."

Youth comes with a certain Naïveté that is charming but often off the mark.

We have most certainly progressed in all ways and happiness is a state of mind that we as individuals control.

[Deni]

When I was teaching I heard this alot " I have a bad childhood, its not my fault" We as a society has given people titles. Bipolar disorder, ADHD,Battered women syndrome, ADD, and many others. Allowing them to take the focus from themselves and place it on someone else. For once impose to your children, for every action you take there is a reaction. Take some responsibilty and let people know you are wrong. Say your sorry to people when you do them wrong. If you break something own up to it. If you lie tell the truth. DO not ever let yourself get swallowed by a label as we in society like to give. If you are a child from a broken home, grow up and make your own home WHOLE. If your parents beat you, grow up and take pride in yourself that you wont be like them. If other kids are a bully, tkae up for the victim and teach him or her how not to be a victim. Be a cheerleader to your children, but never allow them to place the blame on you as a parent. I made a promise to myself when I had children, I would not be like my parents. SO guess what my daughter is not like I was as a child. I am her best cheerleader but I am also her worst nightmare. I make her take the responsibilty for every action she does. Don't blame others as a society place blame where it should lie. In our own HOMES. Look in the mirror when you start to talk, who put you there. I bet it was something you as your own will and mind did. When we point one finger at someone there is 3 pointing back at the responsible party.

[StephiOKC]

Hott you made a great point! Hooray for you and great for you daughter, she needs the positive reenforcements!! I work with the public and I can tell you that you are so correct. When I listen to people make excuses for why they or family members did things ( bad things) it is always...i was abused...my parents were not there...I am starting to see our next generation unable to handle basic decision making choices, refuse to take responsiblity for any of their actions. Melting pot...all I can say most people really have no idea how bad things are right here in OKC. I can remember when I first started in my profession, i was shocked. I thought I had to be so sheltered, is this really OKC? Why yes, friends and neighbors this is our city. Drug use is high, infidelity accepted, out of wedlock pregnancy accepted and supported...all time high for kids on meds for ADD, ADHD when all they need is an adult to tell them the rules and follow thru with consiquences, not a pill. We are so worried about what other people have, the next x box coming out or what others are doing our own houses are falling apart. And yes, it is all supposed to be someone or somethings elses fault.
If I have children they will be raised how I was...good values instilled in me early. Values that stick with me today.