OKC gets low marks in recent study on sprawl

[Zuplar]

Try living there and you'll soon see that it's not the nightmare you imagined.

I lived in town once, for just under 2 years. It was convenient, close to everything, never took more than a few minutes to get where I need, close to parks and plenty of sidewalks. But the amount of people, and cars and traffic had me wanting to leave. Other than that short stint I've never lived anywhere with less than an acre, and until I'm old and can't take care of it, I'm never going back.

[Mississippi Blues]

that's because you don't think before you post dude

And yes... I get the smart-ass remark that has absolutely no meaning to it and is liked by the very people who disagree with meh.... I understand, Spartan, that is apparently all you have and no one would blame you

I don't usually disagree with the points you make. I disagree with the rude, hostile way you present many of your points and unwillingness to hold a mature conversation with those you disagree with. It usually turns into a group of posts filled with a bunch of immature flaming (my example is pretty much this entire thread).

[Plutonic Panda]

Once again, PluPan feels the need to quote and reply to every post even when he has nothing to say.

And yes, I realize I'm stooping to your level. But it's funny.

And once again, another post just attacking me with no meaningful point to try and prove, just more bs. Seriously, I just spent a fair amount of time posting some very legitimate points back a few pages and no one responds to the main points, yet takes out one of my small points on makes a big deal out of it.

And yes, I realize I'm stooping to the level that you stooped to before me, but it's funny.

I guess an emotion is needed, so here is Daffy Duck!

[bchris02]

Plutonic Panda - make sure you look me up when you come to Jax. I think once you see high density single family homes it might surprise you.

JTF, what do you think about Mud Island in Memphis? I think its a great compromise between single-family suburban living and new urbanism. OKC would be very lucky to get such a development one day.

[Plutonic Panda]

I don't usually disagree with the points you make. I disagree with the rude, hostile way you present many of your points and unwillingness to hold a mature conversation with those you disagree with. It usually turns into a group of posts filled with a bunch of immature flaming (my example is pretty much this entire thread).

Dude, do I need to repost what I've already posted? This is actually frustrating me because I spent a fair amount of time posting some very legitimate points that no one tried to argue against for whatever reason. What really pissed me off is when Biotrich came out referred to someone saying something in this thread that only I said, and I challenged that and got exactly the response I expected of him denying that he was referring to me. This is insanity man.

I'm almost in a lost for words of the absurdity that is taking place here. Go back, and look at my post before this crap with boitrich, and please explain to me what exactly was rude and immature about those posts. It's almost to the point where I am about to requester my account be deleted and just do away this(even though I've contributed $200 for 2 Platinum memberships here) because I really have appreciation for what Pete, Steve, and nearly everyone else here does, but half of everything is the same bs by the same people complaining about sprawl and suburban development.

I am in Dallas right now and this city is literally booming with life. Car dominant city, yet a wonderful place to live with people out on every corner. The Stonbriar development in Frisco(a new urbanist nightmare) has cars driving every which way yet people are on every corner and patio with kids, laying back in their chairs, smiling, enjoying themselves, all around nice beautiful 6-8 lane roads and more than once people lay claim that this city is a sprawling suburban mess when that there is no mess at all. I have said time and time again I want OKC to have options. Do I want OKC to end up like Dallas, yes I really do. Doesn't have to be as big as Dallas, but love Dallas man, it is a great place. I want large highways, six lane roads, suburban single family housing that disappears into the skyline, but I also want a dense, lively downtown, that has a rail system that connects the city with walkable streets in every sense of the word walkable.

One thing that really angers me is I can come on here and give a review about Native Roots saying how much I think that place rocks and OKC needs more urban places like DD and how I downtown is going to be OKC's best feature or how Edmond needs to make it's downtown a new urbanist community or how I think OKC needs to get a light-rail system in place, I get tons of likes - but, whenever I say something like it is getting to the point where I-35 needs to be widened to ten lanes from downtown to Norman, it's "oh there Plupan and his wide highways again, or people like Spartan or Custromayo just making some smartass insult or remark that doesn't even try to challenge why I think there should be one, it's just the typical no new highways, no wider highways and blah blah.... I even post points and studies that don't support my views so others are able to view them and have the resource there. I try to be as fair as I can; sometimes however, I can get defensive about things and I understand that.

Anyhow,

I honestly would like to see you go back and read these posts and describe what was rude and immature about them

#80
#76
#81
#83
#85
#86
#88 (my immaturity and rudeness really must be showing on that one when I asked for those pictures to be resized smaller out of concern for slowing down peoples computers and phones, causing their data usage to go up, and overall decency understanding that those could be an inconvenience to some)
#89
#92
#93
#65(me responding to a snarky response(one that could be considered rude and immature) with a valid question of "what would you have him say" with my honest criticism of what I have witnessed).
#66
#67
#68
#70
#72
#73
(you want me to post more?????)

I mean, I am getting pissed off just sitting here listing all of these posts the you have claimed to be rude and immature.... please, explain to me what about those posts were rude and immature..... please man, do it!

When I sit there and spend time posting my honest opinion and no one responds to it, yet I get a post like this:

Someone here mentioned that he did not want to live packed on top others

when I'm the only one that said anything remotely close to that by me saying this

Further more, sprawl to me just seems like people not wanting to live right on top of each other.

then he starts acting like I'm an idiot and wouldn't be able to understand who he was really referring to, knowing I have no way to really prove otherwise.... so excuse the hell out of me for spending nearly an entire page debating this guy about whether he was referring to me or not and getting upset in the process because of it.

Now as for my response to Spartan, he is someone I have yet to figure out. He seems like such an intelligent person who has been a very valuable and reliable source for this thread, but this guy comes in random threads and acts like the biggest troll in the world quite often. Overall, I like Spartan even if he doesn't like me, but for christs sake, even Pete, the owner of the site, had to tell him to cut it out with the trolling on another thread.

So I tell you what, Mississippi Blues, if you don't want to go back and re-read my first posts on here and want to still assume they were made to be immature flaming, rude, and hostile, let me know and I'll do you a big favor by sending Pete a message to delete my account, because if I can't even post what honestly think, what is the point of even being on here, especially having to sit here and deal with this smartass crap from Spartan mocking me when I truly and honestly didn't understand what Boitrichs point really was. I don't troll and have no desire to make any enemies or put people anyone down on here. So sorry I wasn't able to live up to your standards of posting and hopefully maybe you can see what I was really trying to say.

[Plutonic Panda]

Plutonic Panda - make sure you look me up when you come to Jax. I think once you see high density single family homes it might surprise you.

I will definitely do that man. I would honestly like to see them.

[Just the facts]

JTF, what do you think about Mud Island in Memphis? I think its a great compromise between single-family suburban living and new urbanism. OKC would be very lucky to get such a development one day.

Harbor Town (the development on Mud Island) is not a compromise - it IS new urbanism. That is what boitoirich has been trying to say.

Harbor Town | Congress for the New Urbanism

[Mississippi Blues]

Dude, do I need to repost what I've already posted? This is actually frustrating me because I spent a fair amount of time posting some very legitimate points that no one tried to argue against for whatever reason. What really pissed me off is when Biotrich came out referred to someone saying something in this thread that only I said, and I challenged that and got exactly the response I expected of him denying that he was referring to me. This is insanity man.

I'm almost in a lost for words of the absurdity that is taking place here. Go back, and look at my post before this crap with boitrich, and please explain to me what exactly was rude and immature about those posts. It's almost to the point where I am about to requester my account be deleted and just do away this(even though I've contributed $200 for 2 Platinum memberships here) because I really have appreciation for what Pete, Steve, and nearly everyone else here does, but half of everything is the same bs by the same people complaining about sprawl and suburban development.

I am in Dallas right now and this city is literally booming with life. Car dominant city, yet a wonderful place to live with people out on every corner. The Stonbriar development in Frisco(a new urbanist nightmare) has cars driving every which way yet people are on every corner and patio with kids, laying back in their chairs, smiling, enjoying themselves, all around nice beautiful 6-8 lane roads and more than once people lay claim that this city is a sprawling suburban mess when that there is no mess at all. I have said time and time again I want OKC to have options. Do I want OKC to end up like Dallas, yes I really do. Doesn't have to be as big as Dallas, but love Dallas man, it is a great place. I want large highways, six lane roads, suburban single family housing that disappears into the skyline, but I also want a dense, lively downtown, that has a rail system that connects the city with walkable streets in every sense of the word walkable.

One thing that really angers me is I can come on here and give a review about Native Roots saying how much I think that place rocks and OKC needs more urban places like DD and how I downtown is going to be OKC's best feature or how Edmond needs to make it's downtown a new urbanist community or how I think OKC needs to get a light-rail system in place, I get tons of likes - but, whenever I say something like it is getting to the point where I-35 needs to be widened to ten lanes from downtown to Norman, it's "oh there Plupan and his wide highways again, or people like Spartan or Custromayo just making some smartass insult or remark that doesn't even try to challenge why I think there should be one, it's just the typical no new highways, no wider highways and blah blah.... I even post points and studies that don't support my views so others are able to view them and have the resource there. I try to be as fair as I can; sometimes however, I can get defensive about things and I understand that.

Anyhow,

I honestly would like to see you go back and read these posts and describe what was rude and immature about them

#80
#76
#81
#83
#85
#86
#88 (my immaturity and rudeness really must be showing on that one when I asked for those pictures to be resized smaller out of concern for slowing down peoples computers and phones, causing their data usage to go up, and overall decency understanding that those could be an inconvenience to some)
#89
#92
#93
#65(me responding to a snarky response(one that could be considered rude and immature) with a valid question of "what would you have him say" with my honest criticism of what I have witnessed).
#66
#67
#68
#70
#72
#73
(you want me to post more?????)

I mean, I am getting pissed off just sitting here listing all of these posts the you have claimed to be rude and immature.... please, explain to me what about those posts were rude and immature..... please man, do it!

When I sit there and spend time posting my honest opinion and no one responds to it, yet I get a post like this:



when I'm the only one that said anything remotely close to that by me saying this



then he starts acting like I'm an idiot and wouldn't be able to understand who he was really referring to, knowing I have no way to really prove otherwise.... so excuse the hell out of me for spending nearly an entire page debating this guy about whether he was referring to me or not and getting upset in the process because of it.

Now as for my response to Spartan, he is someone I have yet to figure out. He seems like such an intelligent person who has been a very valuable and reliable source for this thread, but this guy comes in random threads and acts like the biggest troll in the world quite often. Overall, I like Spartan even if he doesn't like me, but for christs sake, even Pete, the owner of the site, had to tell him to cut it out with the trolling on another thread.

So I tell you what, Mississippi Blues, if you don't want to go back and re-read my first posts on here and want to still assume they were made to be immature flaming, rude, and hostile, let me know and I'll do you a big favor by sending Pete a message to delete my account, because if I can't even post what honestly think, what is the point of even being on here, especially having to sit here and deal with this smartass crap from Spartan mocking me when I truly and honestly didn't understand what Boitrichs point really was. I don't troll and have no desire to make any enemies or put people anyone down on here. So sorry I wasn't able to live up to your standards of posting and hopefully maybe you can see what I was really trying to say.

I spent half of my childhood in Dallas, so you don't have to convince me of anything. I would like to see OKC grow like Dallas as well, just not necessarily in the exact same direction. I do also want to see OKC not strive to be like Dallas, but to be its own thing. I think we're on the same page as far as Dallas - Oklahoma City goes.

Anyway, I never claimed all of your posts were loaded, but they really shine in this thread and more specifically -- since you want specifics -- ; since boitorich ticked you off and EVEN more specifically, when Nick claimed he didn't get your point. I know you and Nick have been going back and forth forever and I can't recall a time the two of you have ever had a calm conversation. That's to be expected I guess when two people are so far from the same reality.

Your explanation of where you're coming from doesn't help your case as far as you not being a little hostile prick goes. And I really despise that because you really are trying to prove you have good intentions and I admire that, but at the same time you're shooting yourself in the foot by presenting "angry sarcasm" in the same post that you're trying to say "I'm not a rude poster". That's not to say your explanation is unwarranted, because we're all human and I think it shows that we do inflict emotions on one another even though we're all just posting on a forum.

I don't need to go back and re-read your posts because I read them to begin with and have been following this thread since it started and you haven't said or done anything that would've said you were an angry individual until the last page or so. Getting mad and pretty much flaming an entire thread isn't really the way to make a serious point. The saying I've heard implied at times is "you're so full of **** that you can't smell it". No need to say sorry either. I know that's just a "pitiful me" point and isn't a genuine apology.

I don't think you're a bad poster. This whole idea that because I had criticism of you means you need embrace the victim role is rather foolish. I have critiques of myself so it's not like it's a reserved stance for you. Chill out and take any sort of criticism and consider it; don't automatically jump to the defense. If you feel I'm wrong and you haven't been rude, then that's my problem, not yours. I'm not trying to be your psychologist, but my word.

If you want to converse any further on this, PM me because we're taking this thread way off course but I don't want you to leave thinking it's Mississippi Blues vs Plutonic Panda.

[Mississippi Blues]

Harbor Town (the development on Mud Island) is not a compromise - it IS new urbanism. That is what boitoirich has been trying to say.

Harbor Town | Congress for the New Urbanism

I've been a fan of Harbor Town, as well. Would love for something like that to happen here.

[catch22]

The problem is we don't do the suburbs or the urban areas right. We suck at both.

A suburb should still have basic pedestrian infrastructure. It should still be able to survive as a pedestrian.

Just as in an urban environment, you still have basic auto infrastructure. Both have their places in each other (the pedestrian in the suburb, and the automobile in the urban environment). But we don't do a good job of building either environment.

[Plutonic Panda]

I spent half of my childhood in Dallas, so you don't have to convince me of anything. I would like to see OKC grow like Dallas as well, just not necessarily in the exact same direction. I do also want to see OKC not strive to be like Dallas, but to be its own thing. I think we're on the same page as far as Dallas - Oklahoma City goes.

Anyway, I never claimed all of your posts were loaded, but they really shine in this thread and more specifically -- since you want specifics -- ; since boitorich ticked you off and EVEN more specifically, when Nick claimed he didn't get your point. I know you and Nick have been going back and forth forever and I can't recall a time the two of you have ever had a calm conversation. That's to be expected I guess when two people are so far from the same reality.

Your explanation of where you're coming from doesn't help your case as far as you not being a little hostile prick goes. And I really despise that because you really are trying to prove you have good intentions and I admire that, but at the same time you're shooting yourself in the foot by presenting "angry sarcasm" in the same post that you're trying to say "I'm not a rude poster". That's not to say your explanation is unwarranted, because we're all human and I think it shows that we do inflict emotions on one another even though we're all just posting on a forum.

I don't need to go back and re-read your posts because I read them to begin with and have been following this thread since it started and you haven't said or done anything that would've said you were an angry individual until the last page or so. Getting mad and pretty much flaming an entire thread isn't really the way to make a serious point. The saying I've heard implied at times is "you're so full of **** that you can't smell it". No need to say sorry either. I know that's just a "pitiful me" point and isn't a genuine apology.

I don't think you're a bad poster. This whole idea that because I had criticism of you means you need embrace the victim role is rather foolish. I have critiques of myself so it's not like it's a reserved stance for you. Chill out and take any sort of criticism and consider it; don't automatically jump to the defense. If you feel I'm wrong and you haven't been rude, then that's my problem, not yours. I'm not trying to be your psychologist, but my word.

If you want to converse any further on this, PM me because we're taking this thread way off course but I don't want you to leave thinking it's Mississippi Blues vs Plutonic Panda.

Ok, so that pretty much sums it up. You won't go and explain exactly what was rude about my original posts. Was I rude in some of my responses later on in the thread? Perhaps. I only responded in the context that was provided to me, which equates to treat others how you want to be treated.

But again, you say this

my example is pretty much this entire thread

so that pretty much says every post I've made was rude and immature. Either way, I really don't care. Also, me saying sorry was meant to be used in a sarcastic form, I wasn't trying to give you an sincere apology, and I am not sorry for anything that has been said here. I've blown up on posters here before and I am sincerely sorry for that, this is NOT one of those occasions.

Anyhow, I'm about done here. I've provided-what I consider to be-valuable input and had one person knit-pick my post and it all went downhill from there. So like I said, if you truly want to back-up your claims, go to all of these posts I provided above and please explain to me what was rude and immature about them; if not, then I don't know what to say about it. My points remain valid and anyone who has nothing other than to try and piss me off to get me to respond and make me look bad can feel good about it, because boy I sure fell for it.

You're a good man, Mr. Mississippi Blues. Have a great night bro!

[Plutonic Panda]

The problem is we don't do the suburbs or the urban areas right. We suck at both.

A suburb should still have basic pedestrian infrastructure. It should still be able to survive as a pedestrian.

Just as in an urban environment, you still have basic auto infrastructure. Both have their places in each other (the pedestrian in the suburb, and the automobile in the urban environment). But we don't do a good job of building either environment.

Catch, I would sincerely appreciate it if you could post pictures of what kind of "suburbs" you are talking about, because at the risk of making myself come off as an ass to you and Mississippi Blues, I believe I have an idea of what kind of "perfect suburbs" you are thinking of and I don't really consider those to be suburbs; but to prevent yet another meaningless argument, two or three pictures should say everything there needs to be said really.

BTW, I do agree we aren't doing a very good job at either, again, assuming you and me are thinking of the same kind of "right" suburb.

[Plutonic Panda]

Harbor Town (the development on Mud Island) is not a compromise - it IS new urbanism. That is what boitoirich has been trying to say.

Harbor Town | Congress for the New Urbanism

and JTF, I understand exactly what biotoirich was saying, what I don't get, is the context it was in. Whether or not he was merely stating his own opinion or challenging my(aaaaaaaand other people's) views and saying I don't understand what density really is. In other words, I'm just ignorant on this subject, which anyone who disagrees with me could claim, for any reason.

This is awesome! I would love to see something like this here in OKC. I think something like this would be sweet south of I-40 along both sides of the river.





But for some, including myself, quality of life is better in an area like this






Out of personal preference, I find the these to be better places to live, but that is my opinion. I want this AND new urbanism communities. I want downtown Edmond to look like Mud Island but have the rest of the city looking like the lower pictures I posted. Having large highways scaled to however wide it needs to be to handle traffic. I also want commuter and light-rail connecting us to downtown OKC and the greater OKC metro area. I want options, and I believe that is what makes a city great.

[bchris02]

Personally I think Core2Shore is perfect for a Harbor Town-style development. It's also far more realistic for a city the size of OKC than the Manhattan-esque development commonly shown in conceptual drawings.

And yes, OKC needs more options. More options = better quality of life. OKC, for such a suburban city, doesn't do suburbs well and these pictures prove that point nicely.

[Plutonic Panda]

Personally I think Core2Shore is perfect for a Harbor Town-style development. It's also far more realistic for a city the size of OKC than the Manhattan-esque development commonly shown in conceptual drawings.

And yes, OKC needs more options. More options = better quality of life. OKC, for such a suburban city, doesn't do suburbs well and these pictures prove that point nicely.

Yeah, this is really pessimistic, but I really have my fears about the final product for Core2Shore. The only thing I am hoping for now is that I am blown out of the water and proven wrong.

[hoya]

color me dumb on this one, I am getting the reference, if there is one

Not a reference. I just thought we were talking about nightmares we'd had.

Mine was pretty awesome.

[Plutonic Panda]

Not a reference. I just thought we were talking about nightmares we'd had.

Mine was pretty awesome.

Oh, well that does sound pretty cool. My dreams, well..... don't really make sense and would take too long to explain ;P lol

[Just the facts]

If they put JTF in charge I would put a Harbor Town style development on Wheeler Park, complete with inlets from the river and restoration of the two creeks that flowed through this area. In Core to Shore I would implement a uniform exterior and height that all developments would have to adhere to using the City office building on Main St as the model. Then I would outlaw dead-end streets unless terrain or natural features prevented thru streets. I would also ban the private ownership of any water front, buy out existing owners, and restore the natural drainage system by day lighting all creeks. In exchange for those few restrictions I would get rid of the entire zoning code and replace it with a simple land-use smart code. Alas, I am not in charge so none of that will ever happen.

[Mississippi Blues]

Ok, so that pretty much sums it up. You won't go and explain exactly what was rude about my original posts. Was I rude in some of my responses later on in the thread? Perhaps. I only responded in the context that was provided to me, which equates to treat others how you want to be treated.

But again, you say this so that pretty much says every post I've made was rude and immature. Either way, I really don't care. Also, me saying sorry was meant to be used in a sarcastic form, I wasn't trying to give you an sincere apology, and I am not sorry for anything that has been said here. I've blown up on posters here before and I am sincerely sorry for that, this is NOT one of those occasions.

Anyhow, I'm about done here. I've provided-what I consider to be-valuable input and had one person knit-pick my post and it all went downhill from there. So like I said, if you truly want to back-up your claims, go to all of these posts I provided above and please explain to me what was rude and immature about them; if not, then I don't know what to say about it. My points remain valid and anyone who has nothing other than to try and piss me off to get me to respond and make me look bad can feel good about it, because boy I sure fell for it.

You're a good man, Mr. Mississippi Blues. Have a great night bro!

Perhaps I shouldn't have said this entire thread; I should've said the past few posts. That way we could've avoided this confusion that I'm trying to imply every one of your posts in this thread have been rude and off base as I do not think that.

I know you're not sorry, I said I knew that. No need for an explanation, although I do appreciate it. There's nothing for you to apologize to me specifically about. You haven't offended or upset me, so I'm honestly not concerned about it.

Your points can remain valid. I want them to. They're good points. As I said, I have not been trying to discredit you, but my poor wording made it appear I am and that's not the case. My main point is what was originally stated in my first post. I generally agree with you, but sometimes you have a way of going overboard with rudeness and that's where my one and only problem comes it. Otherwise, you're an angel.

Thank you; I try to at least come across in a good way, sometimes. Since it isn't night any longer, I hope you have a great day.

[Mississippi Blues]

Yeah, this is really pessimistic, but I really have my fears about the final product for Core2Shore. The only thing I am hoping for now is that I am blown out of the water and proven wrong.

Honestly, I think we all do, including myself. Hoping for the same thing, though.

[Spartan]

that's because you don't think before you post dude

And yes... I get the smart-ass remark that has absolutely no meaning to it and is liked by the very people who disagree with meh.... I understand, Spartan, that is apparently all you have and no one would blame you

Again I'm confused as to what point you're trying to make.

This is becoming a sprawling thread with low density and many dead ends.

[C_M_25]

You guys are arguing over something that you may never see eye-to-eye on. You are arguing petty points made in various post in this thread regarding ideologies that you will never agree on. Ultimately, there are people that enjoy living downtown, with lots of people, and close to lots of things. There are people that absolutely love suburbia life along with their own houses, small yards, neighbors, and within close driving distance to the city. Then there are people like me that want a 5 or more acre homestead, no view of next door neighbors (or at the very least, a neighbor way off in the distance), peace and quiet, can do/build wherever/whatever they want without pesky neighbors. The three groups of people are not likely to see eye-to-eye on the best way of living. Some people will change throughout their lifetimes from the city life to wanting something out in the country. Maybe we should focus on how best to develop the city limits such that people have the option for all of the above.

Currently, there are too many developments too far out as stated before; housing additions on 20+ acres with nothing around them. Too many farms being bought up by developers and cramming houses in on them....again too far out. I currently live in one of these. I was hoping for more of a country lifestyle, but this is nothing but suburbia. I knew this when buying my house, but I've learned this just isn't for me. OKC is doing a good job about developing housing downtown. They just need to catch up. Unfortunately, there isn't much going on between downtown and suburbia way out of city limits. Because of the sprawl, it is incredibly difficult/expensive to find acreage. You have east edmond that is being bought up by the rich folk which drives up prices beyond what I (and many who would like to be out in the country) could ever afford. The only options for country living is moving 25+ miles out, but that commute gives me diarrhea just thinking about it. Frankly, I don't understand why any of the housing additions outside of the kilpatrick loop don't have 1-5 acre lots (on all of them). Maybe that is too much to ask for, but it certainly doesn't seem like we are developing our area effectively.

[Plutonic Panda]

Perhaps I shouldn't have said this entire thread; I should've said the past few posts. That way we could've avoided this confusion that I'm trying to imply every one of your posts in this thread have been rude and off base as I do not think that.

I know you're not sorry, I said I knew that. No need for an explanation, although I do appreciate it. There's nothing for you to apologize to me specifically about. You haven't offended or upset me, so I'm honestly not concerned about it.

Your points can remain valid. I want them to. They're good points. As I said, I have not been trying to discredit you, but my poor wording made it appear I am and that's not the case. My main point is what was originally stated in my first post. I generally agree with you, but sometimes you have a way of going overboard with rudeness and that's where my one and only problem comes it. Otherwise, you're an angel.

Thank you; I try to at least come across in a good way, sometimes. Since it isn't night any longer, I hope you have a great day.

Alright, I honestly can't argue with that.

[Plutonic Panda]

Again I'm confused as to what point you're trying to make.

This is becoming a sprawling thread with low density and many dead ends.

Spartan, I don't even know what my point is anymore. I have no clue what's being discussed and I've lost track.

[Spartan]

Glad I'm not the only one confused then.

I'm not a bad guy either, I just haven't had time to get too engrossed in these threads with work lately. I'm actually associated with the institute at University of Utah that collaborated on this report, although I've only spoken with them regarding sprawl in Legacy Cities which is pretty extensive.

There is also a difference between sprawl and suburban development. Think about that.