Will Rogers World Airport: Proposed $70 mil expansion

[bchris02]

Just out of curiosity. Why do you come to this forum, other than an obsession with forums, if you hate being/living in OKC so much?

I am going to be in OKC for at least a few more years whether I want to be or not. I enjoy keeping up with the progress and development happening here. Despite having been away over a decade, my roots are partially here.

Here is the deal in a nutshell. I've made the statement that OKC is doing great things and improving by the day. What is has not lost however is it "small time" mentality and it hinders it from truly becoming "major league". OKC currently is among the top 30 largest cities in the country yet around 70 or so in airport size. It is a given it will never be a large hub like Dallas or Atlanta but it MUST become much more than it currently is if we are going to be viewed seriously as a major city. Their is no reason we can't have a top 30-35 type airport with more options.

People from OKC area and south do drive to DFW because of much better options and fares and who can blame them. People from north of OKC within a 45 min drive sometimes go Wichita which can take away from OKC. Until an expansion and agreements are made that give us more flights and better prices, this is what we can expect. When companies come here looking to locate or re-locate, don't for a second think they don't take things like this into consideration and I'm sure it has cost us many times in the past. We need to keep improving the quality of life and let the word spread but it is also vital to bring more people to this city for other reasons. We MUST become some type of destination spot for people to come and check out. Also, get that Convention Center and Hotel built asap instead of waiting 6 more years. Increase our convention business and it could translate into more companies coming here indirectly. OKC needs to have a big time, booming type feeling for those who arrive at our gates if they want to be taken seriously. If not, it is what it currently is, a fairly nice regional airport that is barely in the top 100. To me that is not acceptable for the #27 largest city in the country. People, please let our local and state governments hear your voices about making these bold decisions and quit playing politics with each other. We lose out when they let a film tax credit expire, we lose when we can't even have normal liquor laws because and it's blamed on safety for people. That is bull, it's a conspiracy and only a select few profit. Once again, another factor in some businesses not wanting to locate here. Finally, I shudder to think what NBA teams and their reps think when they see our airport? I find it embarrassing that they probably laugh at how tiny and "minor league" it is compared to every other team in that league. We are becoming a major league city and can achieve that with the right decisions but we have to STOP holding ourselves back with our "small town" mentality.

Exactly!

I really don't think the airport is that bad, but for a city this size it could/should be bigger. I think its plenty nice enough, it should just have better rates, more direct flights, and more overall traffic. I can fly to Charlotte out of Northwest Arkansas Regional for around half the cost of flying out of OKC.

[Of Sound Mind]

I really don't think the airport is that bad, but for a city this size it could/should be bigger. I think its plenty nice enough, it should just have better rates, more direct flights, and more overall traffic. I can fly to Charlotte out of Northwest Arkansas Regional for around half the cost of flying out of OKC.

Are you suggesting the "Field of Dreams" (If you build it, they will come) principle would actually lure airlines to fulfill your dream of "better rates, more direct flights and more overall traffic" simply because our airport is bigger? Do the principles of supply and demand not apply to OKC? Do you not think that if there was sufficient demand here that the market would respond? Can you cite any industry sources saying that the reason we don't have better rates, more direct flights and more overall traffic is that our airport is too small? Or is this all simply conjecture from pie-in-the-sky, no-actual-skin-in-the-game thinking?

[AP]

I can fly to Charlotte out of Northwest Arkansas Regional for around half the cost of flying out of OKC.

Oklahoma City airport lands new flights to NC | News OK

[venture]

Let me first say this whole needing to use the terms and call ourselves "big league" or "major league" is in itself a display of small town mentality and is really getting tired. It just portrays images of a little kid crying for attention because they can't sit at the big kids table at Christmas. Enough is enough. Grow up people.

Here is the deal in a nutshell. I've made the statement that OKC is doing great things and improving by the day. What is has not lost however is it "small time" mentality and it hinders it from truly becoming "major league". OKC currently is among the top 30 largest cities in the country yet around 70 or so in airport size. It is a given it will never be a large hub like Dallas or Atlanta but it MUST become much more than it currently is if we are going to be viewed seriously as a major city. Their is no reason we can't have a top 30-35 type airport with more options.

Drawing a comparision like this just exhibits lack of understanding for the industry. Airport catchment areas go well beyond city limits. Sure OKC may be 29th in population, but we are 44 in MSA rankings. We also need to keep in mind that many cities ranked ahead of us in enplanements are going to have another draw. So let's look at a few and to avoid any knocks at Wiki, here is the data: http://www.faa.gov/airports/planning...planements.pdf

• Oklahoma City is #64.
• Omaha is #62 and has benefited in the past with service from Midwest encouraging direct P2P routes. However, they are only boarding a couple hundred thousand more than us. Not a big deal.
• Anchorage is #59 but they benefit from being the main point of entry for flights to that part of the world. They board 400,000 more than us.
• Buffalo is #57 and has the benefit of cross boarder feed from Ontario.
• Albuquerque is #56 and they don't really have any viable competing airport anywhere near them.
• Hartford is #55 but has a much higher regional population to pull from and a more diverse economy.

I could really keep going on but we need to be honest, we are exactly where we should be at this point. Flights aren't 100% full. In 2013 Oklahoma City overall only filled 76.69% of all available seats. Buffalo filled 82.99% and Omaha filled 81.46%. OKC will never be a top 30-35 airport without a significant population and economic boom. Even then it is still crazy talk and will be tough to really charge up the list.

People from OKC area and south do drive to DFW because of much better options and fares and who can blame them. People from north of OKC within a 45 min drive sometimes go Wichita which can take away from OKC.

We did this comparison in the other thread a while ago. ICT provides little advantage over OKC. DFW...you can't compete with a major hub. If people want to drive the 3 hours to get there, more power to them. You can't deal with competing for passengers like that. I really think the draw of DFW gets overplayed a bit, not that it doesn't happen but not to a significant degree. This isn't Flint or Toledo being sucked dry by Detroit Metro or Rockford by the Chicago airports. If people are willing to drive that far you can't price the service profitably to keep them.

Until an expansion and agreements are made that give us more flights and better prices, this is what we can expect.

So what? You want us to become Wichita which is paying Southwest up to $7 million a year to artificially keep fares down? People aren't using the service to its fullest that we have here already. I am also tired of bitching about air fares being too high. This isn't the 90s anymore with cheap fuel. When a line item goes from being 20-30% of your costs to over 60%, the passengers need to realize their dreams of $99 coast to coast fares are dead and its time to start paying for the service being provided. They bitch about being nickled and dimed with ancillary fees - they did it to themselves. You want the cheap air fare, well then you are going to have to pay for the extra services that aren't going to be included anymore. Outside of a few exceptions like premium fares or airlines like Southwest and JetBlue, your air fare is to pay for that seat and nothing else. You want a drink, checked bags, assigned seats, heck even carry ons - time to pay up. Not saying I agree with that style of service, but the sense of entitlement that air travelers have is insane.

The flight offers from OKC are pretty damn exceptional considering how much consolidating has happened. I remember not that long ago you couldn't get to the east or west coasts from OKC without making a connection - now we have half a dozen cities on the coasts.

When companies come here looking to locate or re-locate, don't for a second think they don't take things like this into consideration and I'm sure it has cost us many times in the past. We need to keep improving the quality of life and let the word spread but it is also vital to bring more people to this city for other reasons. We MUST become some type of destination spot for people to come and check out. Also, get that Convention Center and Hotel built asap instead of waiting 6 more years. Increase our convention business and it could translate into more companies coming here indirectly. OKC needs to have a big time, booming type feeling for those who arrive at our gates if they want to be taken seriously. If not, it is what it currently is, a fairly nice regional airport that is barely in the top 100. To me that is not acceptable for the #27 largest city in the country.

Oklahoma will always be at a disadvantage when it comes to being a destination market. When you look outside what do you see? Exactly. Not many people are rushing to vacation on the Plains without some other attraction to bring them in. We don't have the water (our man made lakes don't count), we don't have the mountain ranges for recreation in the winter, and we don't have the self made attractions like Vegas. We also have some of the more crazy weather in the country which doesn't sit well with most. However, we have a strong economy and a good jobs sector that will continue to grow and with it so will air service as it is needed.

People, please let our local and state governments hear your voices about making these bold decisions and quit playing politics with each other. We lose out when they let a film tax credit expire, we lose when we can't even have normal liquor laws because and it's blamed on safety for people. That is bull, it's a conspiracy and only a select few profit. Once again, another factor in some businesses not wanting to locate here. Finally, I shudder to think what NBA teams and their reps think when they see our airport? I find it embarrassing that they probably laugh at how tiny and "minor league" it is compared to every other team in that league. We are becoming a major league city and can achieve that with the right decisions but we have to STOP holding ourselves back with our "small town" mentality.

Again...if you think our airport is tiny, you haven't traveled much. People need to get over it. We have a right sized airport that fits our needs. The expansion plans will provide a guide for future growth, but we aren't seeing airlines bust down the doors to get in here - mainly because there aren't many left and those that are are mostly here already. As far as NBA teams and their reps think about our airport? Probably the same thing at every airport "where is the bus to get on?" Note...the teams don't exactly come in to the pax terminal as far as I'm aware (Catch can correct me). They will park their charter aircraft at an FBO and deplane there...just like they do at every other airport in most cases.

[Tier2City]

For those in the reality-based community Venture's summary from the end of December of likely 2014 expansion is worth a read:

http://www.okctalk.com/transportatio...tml#post725623

[catch22]

Venture is correct, NBA teams run out of the AAR FBO, not the terminal building.

[Just the facts]

This is how I see it and I will use a car analogy.

OKC is a Ford Escape town and we have a Ford Escape airport. Some people think we should have a Cadillac Escalade airport so we can be a Cadillac Escalade city. The reality is OKC can't support (or even afford) an Escalade airport and we will never be a Cadillac Escalade city. However, the Ford Escape comes in 3 trim levels (S, SE, and Titanium) and each trim level has its own set of options. The problem is we have the 'S' trim level with minimal options and OKC should have the Titanium trim level with ALL the options. We might have an Escape airport but let's have the best damned Escape airport on the planet - not a 1962 retrofit.

[CaptDave]

^ That is the right approach for sure. I disagree with your assessment that a total demo and rebuild is necessary to accomplish that. The cost benefits of that method don't add up IMO. The newer areas of the terminal are not embarrassing despite a few things that could use some work, but most airports have at least a few issues like that. I've seen a few truly bad airports and WRWA isn't even close until you go downstairs.

Focusing on improvements for the lower level and tunnel would help immensely. Can't do much about the ceiling heights at baggage claim within the current footprint, but I am sure some smart architect could come up with something that would work. Maybe push the actual claim area to the north and build a more inviting area where the kind of silly garden area is now. No way do I have any sort of specific design in mind, but I don't think a scorched earth approach is necessary.

[Just the facts]

The problem is the "new" area that looks good is attached to an existing structure that is inadequate on almost every level. Even if you tear out the original structure you would have the exact same space limitations because you just can't move the new stuff 80 feet further out unless you tear it down as well. Maybe we should do what Colorado Spring did about 20 years ago and just build a new terminal on the southside of the airport with an entrance off of 104th, but this time build it with future expansion in mind. They could even run Meridian under the crosswind runway so the Meridian hotels don't complain.

[PWitty]

Just out of curiosity. Why do you come to this forum, other than an obsession with forums, if you hate being/living in OKC so much?

I personally don't get it. I have done a decent amount of traveling and have been to a handful of Top 30 or so metros, and IMO every city is more alike than different for the most part. Yes, if you are big into public transit, the arts, and big urban downtowns then there are obviously cities that have more of that than the rest. But for the most part every city offers the same things, they're just presented differently. I know plenty of people from Dallas, Houston, Austin, KC, and the like who are in OKC and love it.

IMO I think he cares too much about what people who have never been to OKC say about OKC on the internet, and he lets that override any positive feelings he has about the city. Too bad, it's his loss.

[venture]

The problem is the "new" area that looks good is attached to an existing structure that is inadequate on almost every level. Even if you tear out the original structure you would have the exact same space limitations because you just can't move the new stuff 80 feet further out unless you tear it down as well. Maybe we should do what Colorado Spring did about 20 years ago and just build a new terminal on the southside of the airport with an entrance off of 104th, but this time build it with future expansion in mind. They could even run Meridian under the crosswind runway so the Meridian hotels don't complain.

I think a new terminal build out would be a total waste, so that's just off the table. I do think we can remove the original structure without having to impact the new facility. The parking structure directly north of the terminal can all be removed. A new structure can then remove the curve and provide a straight central terminal terminal structure. Think something very similar to AUS. If we need to further expand, we have the east concourse which could wrap around back to the north or a new satellite terminal immediately south. It might require elimination of taxiway G to have enough clearance though. Long term in the fantasy world though, I would remove 13/31 and put in a new 9/27 on the south end of the air field.

IMO I think he cares too much about what people who have never been to OKC say about OKC on the internet, and he lets that override any positive feelings he has about the city. Too bad, it's his loss.

This exactly. I know my home town gets a massive negative rap mostly, especially being close to Detroit, but it has some real jewels in the cultural and attraction arena that really compete with some of the best in the country. However, if I get so focused on what people say about it online I would go nuts. People will have opinions of Oklahoma City...and those will always last. It is not different than talking about old people in Florida, hipsters in Seattle, or rude people in New England. There will always be people that perpetuate the stereotype, but no one is perfect.

I enjoy living here. Am I going to stay? Not sure. The hotter summers really make me miserable and I really struggle being far from any major body of water. At the end of the day I've been here about 15 years now, but I also don't want to keep myself from experiencing other areas of the country as well. We have so many different areas in this nation that I think it is almost a disservice not to experience life in other parts, and that means more than visiting for a week or two.

[Just the facts]

I think a new terminal build out would be a total waste, so that's just off the table. I do think we can remove the original structure without having to impact the new facility. The parking structure directly north of the terminal can all be removed. A new structure can then remove the curve and provide a straight central terminal terminal structure. Think something very similar to AUS. If we need to further expand, we have the east concourse which could wrap around back to the north or a new satellite terminal immediately south. It might require elimination of taxiway G to have enough clearance though. Long term in the fantasy world though, I would remove 13/31 and put in a new 9/27 on the south end of the air field.

I wonder what the duration, cost difference, and passenger disruption would be for doing that vs. just building a whole new terminal and parking garages south of the airport.

[catch22]

I wonder what the duration, cost difference, and passenger disruption would be for doing that vs. just building a whole new terminal and parking garages south of the airport.

A lot. It would be extremely expensive to start from scratch. The great thing about having the concourse on the north, is all the support facilities are close by. If you need maintenance to come out, they can be there in about 5 minutes. All the fuel storage facilities are on the north end of the field, and there is a satellite fuel farm on the north side of the west concourse, delivering fuel from the fuel tanks on the north side. Fuel trucks can be refueled in about 10-15 minutes, with very little drive time to reload. Cargo facilities are closeby, if we need to use Fedex or UPS to get some freight or passenger bags shipped for us (in the case that we failed to deliver on time or misrouted), we can have them to freight carriers in very little time with very little lead time.

In order to build a terminal on the south end of the field, you will lose all of those synergies and resources available.

Also, having the terminal midfield, allows short taxi times no matter which runways are in use. If you have a terminal at the south end of the field, any time the wind is out of the south, you will have to taxi about 2 miles for takeoff. That takes a while at 15 mph, and to cross a runway.

The terminal would have to be built at the very south end of the runways, due to building distance requirement for runway 13/31, guaranteeing that taxi time.

[catch22]

And in the case of departures to the north, the taxi time wouldn't be LONG ENOUGH to have the engines warmed up for departure. So airplanes would sit at the end of the runway waiting to warm up. Even in the hot summer, engines still need to heat up.

[bradh]

catch22 and venture...knocking it out of the park...valuable info here

[PWitty]

We have so many different areas in this nation that I think it is almost a disservice not to experience life in other parts, and that means more than visiting for a week or two.

Not to derail this thread, but I was talking with a buddy of mine about that the other day. Sometimes I take for granted how truly MASSIVE the US is. There is what, 52 US metro areas with populations over 1 million? There are SO many options for people to choose from when they try and pick a home, in so many different areas that differ both culturally and climate-wise. Even in other large countries like France, Germany, UK, Australia, etc. there is what, maybe 5 cities (10 max) with populations that large? It's just nuts to me. When I look back on it I'm so glad I had a job lined up before graduation, because I would've gone absolutely bonkers trying to decide what part of the country, let alone what city, I would want to live in when I started looking for a job.

[G.Walker]

Oklahoma City unveils plans for $70 million expansion at Will Rogers World Airport | News OK

Article states they want to have the expansion completed by 2017...

[warreng88]

Oklahoma City unveils plans for $70 million expansion at Will Rogers World Airport | News OK

Article states they want to have the expansion completed by 2017...

The one and only comment on that article makes my head hurt.

[Plutonic Panda]

it appears that comment was removed... what did it say?

[bchris02]

it appears that comment was removed... what did it say?

"I know how to relieve congestion at security checkpoints....remove them. Oh, and while they're at it they can repeal the Patriot Act, deactivate DHS, stand down TSA and basically give us our 4th amendment back."

[AP]

When is this supposed to be presented?

[HangryHippo]

While we're discussing OKC's airport (which I have truly enjoyed reading - some good discussion and insight going on), I'll throw my 2 cents in.

I understand that it would have taken a LOT, but I wish OKC could have redone the layout entirely with a centralized greeting area (like the airport in Indianapolis) at the north end where the current terminal is with a straight concourse extending south in between the two NS runways (like the new terminal in Vienna, Austria). This setup would have allowed OKC to straighten the airport road for better sight lines outside of and within the central greeting area and then with the terminal extending straight south, you could theoretically just add on to the end when expansion was warranted, without interfering with anything currently going on at the airport. Then, once the terminal areas were done, you could have constructed a new consolidated rental car facility/parking garage connected to the central terminal area by a walkway (like what Indianapolis has to their garage).

Here are pictures of Indianapolis' and Vienna's terminals for reference.









The first 3 photos are of Indianapolis' airport showing the general layout of the facility and the central terminal area that I'd like to see us utilize. Then, the 4th photo is of Vienna's new terminal - this is the part of their facility that I would have added on to the central area that I borrowed from Indy's facility. This portion would extend south from the central terminal area, starting right where that large, glass circle is on the roof, and it would pass right between the two runways.

I think this design would allow sufficient taxi time for the engines to warm up, it would be easy to add on to, it is exceptionally easy to navigate, would have relieved the cramping issues our current airport deals with, and is aesthetically pleasing. If traffic ever warranted it, you could easily add a tram like what Detroit's airport uses, but I doubt it's long enough to need anything beyond moving walkways.

If someone has the skills and time to render a mock up of what this would look like combined, I'd be most appreciative.

[Plutonic Panda]

"I know how to relieve congestion at security checkpoints....remove them. Oh, and while they're at it they can repeal the Patriot Act, deactivate DHS, stand down TSA and basically give us our 4th amendment back."

lol, and I bet he voted for Bush to.

[Plutonic Panda]

Daaamn! Indianapolis is doing some work. Never really thought much of the city, looks like a very nice place though.

[okcpulse]

It's because Houston is also known for being a cosmopolitan, world-class, international city that has all the amenities one would expect to go along with that. Oklahoma City at the present time simply cannot compare, even on a smaller scale.

It has all the amenities one would expect to go with that because it has a metro population of 6 million, not because of political decisions. Being cosmopolitan, world class and international is the end result of a large population base, nothing more or less. OKC doesn't compare because it isn't the 5th largest market in the U.S. That still doesn't give anyone a reason to hold OKC to higher scrutiny.