MAPS 4 Brainstorming

[betts]

Actually, all the old neighborhoods have a lot of charm. Even Classen Ten Penn, fixed up, could be charming. Heritage Hills, Mesta Park, Gatewood, Edgemere, Crown Heights, Putnam Heights: I love the architecture in these neighborhoods. The problems started in the 50s and 60s with the ranch house, IMO. That is one ugly style of house and it hung on until the 60s and 70s, which had an even uglier unnameable style that you can see in Quail Creek and neighborhoods started at that time. Then we got into what is called the "North Dallas style", which is a little bit of a take on the more attractive styles of the teens through early 40s. I always thought the newer neighborhoods suffered from lack of sidewalks and structured trees planted near the sidewalks, which gives you the charming tree-lined streets that many of us admire. Especially in the 60s and 70s around here, people started to get creative with their landscaping, or worshipped the lawn so much that they didn't want to mar it with trees. So, as the houses aged, you didn't get growth of trees along the street to soften the ugliness.

[Just the facts]

I would like to see some kind of MAPS funding specifically for Capitol Hill, Stockyard City, Plaza District, Britton, 23rd, Paseo, and Western neighborhoods.

[OKCRT]

I would like to see some kind of MAPS funding specifically for Capitol Hill, Stockyard City, Plaza District, Britton, 23rd, Paseo, and Western neighborhoods.

Most of the maps funding should stay in the downtown area IMO. Keep investing in downtown and the city will reap the rewards as a whole. A strong downtown is good for OKC. Downtown OKC has so much farther to go to catch up to other cities. I don't mind throwing a bone to some of the other areas but we need to stay primarily focused on the downtown area for at least the next few MAPS if in fact we do have more to come.

[Achilleslastand]

Most of the maps funding should stay in the downtown area IMO. Keep investing in downtown and the city will reap the rewards as a whole. A strong downtown is good for OKC. Downtown OKC has so much farther to go to catch up to other cities. I don't mind throwing a bone to some of the other areas but we need to stay primarily focused on the downtown area for at least the next few MAPS if in fact we do have more to come.

Please explain in detail how the aforementioned areas will reap the rewards of a strong downtown?

[betts]

If we get rail transit between Edmond and Norman, MWC and Yukon or the airport, if you put stops near Britton, 23rd, Capitol Hill, Stockyards you won't have to give them money. They'll get TOD that trumps anything the taxpayers can do. That might be the best argument for the next tax to be a dedicated tax for transit.

[warreng88]

I would think the majority of MAPS 4 (if presented at all) would be transit oriented and would pair with the 2017 General Obligation bond. The MAPS 3 tax is up December 31, 2017. The 2007 GO Bond was done in December as well. The GO Bond would take care of streets, sidewalks, trails and other infrastructure. MAPS 4 could focus more on more streetcar (possibly to Capital Hill), bus upgrades (if not done already), the transportation hub expansion, etc. I just don't see another MAPS passing if it is not for transit and focused too much on DT.

[king183]

Assuming I have my timelines right, the MAPS 3 tax started being collected on April 1, 2010, and will expire on December 31, 2018. Roughly speaking, we are about halfway through the collection period, but I think it would be a good idea to start roughing out some ideas to put forward for the MAPS 4 discussion starts on a wider level. Here is what I have been thinking so far:

MAPS 3 ends December 2017, not 2018, so we're are closer to the end of the program and the beginning of the campaign for the next than a lot of people realize. I would imagine the planning for MAPS 4 would begin in 2015 and a campaign to begin forming in early 2016, approximately two years from now.

[Urbanized]

Wouldn't be surprised if they didn't let the tax expire and give the citizenry a break for a year or more while projects are wrapped and enthusiasm builds for the brand again, much as they did after the "Finish MAPs Right" extension of the first MAPs expired in '99.

One of the key features that has helped maintain the MAPs brand is the clear understanding that it is not a permanent tax and is very project-driven. The knock among some on MAPs 3 (before the criticism descended into just plain bitter and divisive politics) was that it was "a tax in search of projects." I don't believe that, as I think a number of them were critical for OKC and others will be very nice additions, but letting it expire and allowing folks to start clamoring for specific projects could perhaps fend off any citizen fatigue.

[David]

MAPS 3 ends December 2017, not 2018, so we're are closer to the end of the program and the beginning of the campaign for the next than a lot of people realize. I would imagine the planning for MAPS 4 would begin in 2015 and a campaign to begin forming in early 2016, approximately two years from now.

Ahh, thanks. I wasn't sure if I was doing the math on that correctly.

[gopokes88]

I like the transit ideas. I think maps 4 needs to be core/outer core/suburb focused if you want a maps 5 (which will probably include a new thunder arena, heck maps 4 might. The peake turns 25 in 2024.) The suburbs will need to see a direct benefit from these to keep them voting for them. Sidewalks, beautification, and light rail/street car expansion would all be worthwhile.

[soonerguru]

Wouldn't be surprised if they didn't let the tax expire and give the citizenry a break for a year or more while projects are wrapped and enthusiasm builds for the brand again, much as they did after the "Finish MAPs Right" extension of the first MAPs expired in '99.

One of the key features that has helped maintain the MAPs brand is the clear understanding that it is not a permanent tax and is very project-driven. The knock among some on MAPs 3 (before the criticism descended into just plain bitter and divisive politics) was that it was "a tax in search of projects." I don't believe that, as I think a number of them were critical for OKC and others will be very nice additions, but letting it expire and allowing folks to start clamoring for specific projects could perhaps fend off any citizen fatigue.

I see your point, and I certainly understand why the politicos may want to do this, but it would be a mistake, IMO. The bottom line is that MAPS 4 will probably pass just like the other ones. Why waste a whole year?

[soonerguru]

Most of the maps funding should stay in the downtown area IMO. Keep investing in downtown and the city will reap the rewards as a whole. A strong downtown is good for OKC. Downtown OKC has so much farther to go to catch up to other cities. I don't mind throwing a bone to some of the other areas but we need to stay primarily focused on the downtown area for at least the next few MAPS if in fact we do have more to come.

I don't think the politics are there to do it this way. Not saying we should ignore downtown in the next MAPS iteration, but the focus needs to be on inner-city and outer-loop neighborhood improvement and transit.

[Urban Pioneer]

I doubt they will let the tax lapse. Several Council members have their eyes on it eager for "their turn" for greater investment in other areas. Also, we are very close on going to each city with Regional Transit Authority framework.

I suspect this MAPS will be "MAPS for corridors"- transit, beautification, and economic development. There will also probably be more investment in the Oklahoma River area as well as the work they have done sets us up for larger national and international events.

The other factor in all this is the 2019 GO Bond issue as well. If the Council is smart, they will negotiate and plan the $1.6 billion that these two votes could provide together through a comprehensive plan.

[Just the facts]

I would like to see some kind of MAPS funding specifically for Capitol Hill, Stockyard City, Plaza District, Britton, 23rd, Paseo, and Western neighborhoods.

Most of the maps funding should stay in the downtown area IMO. Keep investing in downtown and the city will reap the rewards as a whole. A strong downtown is good for OKC. Downtown OKC has so much farther to go to catch up to other cities. I don't mind throwing a bone to some of the other areas but we need to stay primarily focused on the downtown area for at least the next few MAPS if in fact we do have more to come.

With downtown approaching critical mass for self-sustainability OKC needs to start rebuilding the traditional neighborhoods I listed. Money for these areas could be used any number of ways and what works in Capitol Hill might not work in the Plaza district. Money could be used for street-scapes, to help remodel buildings, direct subsidy payments to retailers, seed money for a TIF district, establishment of neighborhood based transit, connection to rail based mass transit, or any number of other uses.

As an example, Britton could use the money to build a train station and town center to be on the OKC-Edmond commuter rail line and Capitol Hill could use the money to help fund residential development and mass transit to downtown.

[king183]

Wouldn't be surprised if they didn't let the tax expire and give the citizenry a break for a year or more while projects are wrapped and enthusiasm builds for the brand again, much as they did after the "Finish MAPs Right" extension of the first MAPs expired in '99.

One of the key features that has helped maintain the MAPs brand is the clear understanding that it is not a permanent tax and is very project-driven. The knock among some on MAPs 3 (before the criticism descended into just plain bitter and divisive politics) was that it was "a tax in search of projects." I don't believe that, as I think a number of them were critical for OKC and others will be very nice additions, but letting it expire and allowing folks to start clamoring for specific projects could perhaps fend off any citizen fatigue.

I doubt this would happen, but if it did, it would be a major mistake. One of the key selling points about previous extensions was that it was not a tax increase, as it simply maintains the rate currently in place. If it were to expire and be brought up a year later, MAPs opponents would be able to rally opposition by arguing it is a legit tax increase. That could be deadly, depending on the political and economic atmosphere at the time.


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[Urbanized]

I doubt this would happen, but if it did, it would be a major mistake. One of the key selling points about previous extensions was that it was not a tax increase, as it simply maintains the rate currently in place. If it were to expire and be brought up a year later, MAPs opponents would be able to rally opposition by arguing it is a legit tax increase. That could be deadly, depending on the political and economic atmosphere at the time...

It (expiration) has already happened once before, with no adverse effects. The MAPs tax expired in 1999 and remained off for more than a year before MAPs for Kids brought it back. It would not be negatively co-opted with any success if they did it again. In fact, it would be an example of delivering on promises.

That said, if a compelling case can be made for immediate passage of a MAPs 4 for defensible reasons, so be it.

[king183]

It (expiration) has already happened once before, with no adverse effects. The MAPs tax expired in 1999 and remained off for more than a year before MAPs for Kids brought it back. It would not be negatively co-opted with any success if they did it again. In fact, it would be an example of delivering on promises.

That said, if a compelling case can be made for immediate passage of a MAPs 4 for defensible reasons, so be it.

Sure, but the political atmosphere is substantially different than in 1999, especially with respect to taxes. I don't think there's anyway a proposed "tax increase" would pass in this environment. That said, the political atmosphere could be different in 2017.

[soonerguru]

It (expiration) has already happened once before, with no adverse effects. The MAPs tax expired in 1999 and remained off for more than a year before MAPs for Kids brought it back. It would not be negatively co-opted with any success if they did it again. In fact, it would be an example of delivering on promises.

That said, if a compelling case can be made for immediate passage of a MAPs 4 for defensible reasons, so be it.

The atmosphere has changed.

[soonerguru]

With downtown approaching critical mass for self-sustainability OKC needs to start rebuilding the traditional neighborhoods I listed. Money for these areas could be used any number of ways and what works in Capitol Hill might not work in the Plaza district. Money could be used for street-scapes, to help remodel buildings, direct subsidy payments to retailers, seed money for a TIF district, establishment of neighborhood based transit, connection to rail based mass transit, or any number of other uses.

As an example, Britton could use the money to build a train station and town center to be on the OKC-Edmond commuter rail line and Capitol Hill could use the money to help fund residential development and mass transit to downtown.

I largely agree, but I think we need to be creating the next Paseo, Plaza, etc.

[Just the facts]

I largely agree, but I think we need to be creating the next Paseo, Plaza, etc.

I hear what you are saying but OKC still has some historic urban neighborhoods that haven't even left the gate yet and they need to be helped along. Plus, once these tent-pole density neighborhoods start springing up people are going to want more of them. As demand grows the private sector will eventually take over all on its own. Some of Americas largest home builders are already doing this in other cities across the country. Toll Brothers, famous for the McMansion and sprawl, already has an urban division which accounts for 40% of income.

Toll Brothers City Living | About Us

Likewise, big box retailers are rapidly becoming small box retailers and other national chains are developing urban concepts even faster. OKC just needs to supply a place for these concepts to locate, and what better place than our existing historic districts. In 10 years OKC could have 8 to 10 bonafide walkable urban neighborhoods all connected by mass transit.

[Urbanized]

The atmosphere has changed.

In other words, it IS a permanent tax. Two can play at that game.

The anti-tax crowd can whip themselves into a frenzy either way.

[mkjeeves]

I hear what you are saying but OKC still has some historic urban neighborhoods that haven't even left the gate yet and they need to be helped along.

Fixed. Otherwise spot on.

[capt_john_97]

I think OKC needs to build some public swimming pools and not the spraygrounds!

[LakeEffect]

I think OKC needs to build some public swimming pools and not the spraygrounds!

Public pool attendance has been trending way down, and the costs up, therefore OKC closed as many as possible.

[capt_john_97]

Public pool attendance has been trending way down, and the costs up, therefore OKC closed as many as possible.

$6 to go to Will Rogers I can see why. Who wants to take their life into their own hands and go to one of the free pools? Reduce costs at the Water parks and attendance will rise. switch to salt systems instead of chlorine systems. Initial cost is higher but the return is better.