122nd and MacArthur in the 1980s and 1990s

[Joe Kimball]

I try to limit my nostalgia, but I'm a big history buff because of its forward-thinking advantages anyway. I thought I'd start a thread here rather than hijack the one concerning current development, with my hopes that this area is given similar pride as it was back then.

This was a happening area back then. The strip that now lies dilapidated, anchored by Dollar General and with a satellite of Italia Express next door, was once quite the community hub, with Foodworld and Jim's IGA, Time Out! For Burgers, Little Caesar's when they did the two pizza thing (and a place called Vito's I never ate at before then, as it was vacated). To the east are a couple of strip malls which were relatively eclectic, with What-A-Donut which is still there, a recently departed Chinese restaurant (as well as the pan-Asian buffet which subsequently replaced it), and even a billiards room which was hotly contested but subsequently well-run to my memory.

My knowledge of the area is limited to 1988 and thereafter.

[ctchandler]

Joe,
Did you ever eat at Chip's barbecue? Not bad, he catered barbecue before opening this store. He then started K. C. Blues on Britton. I ate at the Chinese restaurant a few times. It was pretty good for lunch.
C. T.

[ylouder]

Operation rolling ghetto. Edmond is coming up next.

That whole PC north area used to be the place to live but when the city encourages low density sprawl that's what happens. You can really see it happening in Edmond as we speak.

[Pete]

I was in the last class to graduate from Putnam City before they opened PC North and had some friends that had moved "way out" to Warwick and a few other surrounding subdivisions.

There was almost nothing to the north of 122nd until the Greens and Val Verde were built.

There was a nice liquor store in the shopping center on the SW corner, but I don't remember the name. Had a good wine selection for the time (80's).

[bradh]

Operation rolling ghetto. Edmond is coming up next.

That whole PC north area used to be the place to live but when the city encourages low density sprawl that's what happens. You can really see it happening in Edmond as we speak.

It's not that bad good Lord. There is still new growth in some spots and it's not cheap either.

[traxx]

I lived in Warwick. I was a sacker at Foodworld. My friends and I would often go to Time Out after youth group. I remember when I worked at Foodworld that there was a lot of hustle and bustle after school as families did grocery shopping, got food to go at Time Out or Little Ceaser's (back when they gave you two pizzas in a long paper sleeve) and rented VHS tapes at the video store. Now that area is dead, dead, dead. The shopping center at Rockwell and 122nd, where Big Ed's was, never seemed to be full or be able to keep tennents. I remember Val Verde was considered a very nice neighborhood at the time. Now it seems nearly as run down as other neighborhoods in the area.

I touched on this slightly in another thread, but it's because they didn't build any of it to last and it was built without a plan. Whoever said rolling ghetto is right. Memorial road will some day be the same way as the city builds past it. If they ever had a plan for any of this suburban development and developed it with some pride and cohesivness, maybe we could curtail the sprawl as well as repurpose well built buildings when someone goes out of business or moves on.

And now they've built that library out there that is only accessible by car. It's just sitting there by itself. What a brilliant idea that was.

[bradh]

Have you been to that library? Are you implying it's barely used, because if you are, you're wrong. It's a fantastic facility for those of us who still live up here.

Val Verde run down? What world do you live in?

[traxx]

Have you been to that library? Are you implying it's barely used, because if you are, you're wrong. It's a fantastic facility for those of us who still live up here.

Val Verde run down? What world do you live in?

I didn't say the library was underused. But fostering a community feel instead of putting it in a field all by its lonesome would've been a better idea. Like Urbanized said in another thread, we should have suburbs done right. Where you can walk out of your house and stroll to a well done community area with amenities such as a library or a market or coffee shop etc. And maybe my memory is wrong on Val Verde but the last time I drove through it about 15 or so years ago, it looked dated and some of the houses not well taken care of.

[bradh]

I didn't say the library was underused. But fostering a community feel instead of putting it in a field all by its lonesome would've been a better idea. Like Urbanized said in another thread, we should have suburbs done right. Where you can walk out of your house and stroll to a well done community area with amenities such as a library or a market or coffee shop etc. And maybe my memory is wrong on Val Verde but the last time I drove through it about 15 or so years ago, it looked dated and some of the houses not well taken care of.

I get all that, and that's fine that so many of the "urban is the best/only way/etc" crowd will continue to look down on us that we use cars to get places. I don't think any less of my area because we don't have sidewalks and some grand plan of Utopia that so many have. Is it perfect? No. Is it a perfectly capable area with access to what I need, parks, golf, a giant lake, etc? Yes. I grow tired of so many academic placemakers crapping on where I live because it doesn't fit thier ideal place.

[Joe Kimball]

I never ate at Chip's, I'm afraid! Uncle John's was the only one I did in that area....I usually got comped sandwiches from surplus chopped beef, and bought a slab every now and then.

The liquor store is just a few hundred feet down the street from where it was -- it's used to be Smitty's, I remember. As The Wild Turkey, it's still a fine, upscale store, with a well-curated selection.

At this point I must slightly disagree. I wouldn't say we're quite run down in this area of town. Indeed, I refer only to the once-thriving shopping center; we've plenty of growth and prosperity within a mile each direction. Val Verde looks about as dated as parts of Nichols Hills, and I access the library by bicycle. I think the location is just fine, and it certainly is closer than the previous "local" branch, the Warr Acres location on 63rd and MacArthur...one of the smallest ones in the system, if I recall correctly.

[MWCGuy]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this area. In fact if you will be lucky if you find a house under a $150,000 in that area. What killed that shopping center was the fire at Time Out for Burgers. It damaged both the restraunt and the grocery store. Since then it has sat empty and Walls should have never moved there in the first place. They were lucky if ten customers a day shopped in that store. When I lived there back in 2008 I made it a point to visit at least twice a week. Walls is one of those stores you can find a killer deal you just have to pick through the junk.

In my honest opinion, Westlake would be the best fit for that area and they would probably bring in customers from that area and far North of Memorial. Not everybody likes to go to Home Depot or Lowes for everything. Since I moved to Midwest City I find myself in Westlake more often then big box stores. The employees know the store, they know the products and they know how to do the simple repairs. You can rarely find that in the big box stores.

[ylouder]

Pahdz you are 100 percent correct the area is still verty nice, I was refering to lack of.continued establishment when people move to the next 'it place'.

The NW part of the.city is one.of my favorite areas in the whole metro.

[ylouder]

Pahdz you are 100 percent correct the area is still verty nice, I was refering to lack of.continued establishment when people move to the next 'it place'.

The NW part of the.city is one.of my favorite areas in the whole metro.my problem is that unless.a.section of town is less than 5 years old then the city considers it a waste of further.investment and its time to move to the next project

[traxx]

I get all that, and that's fine that so many of the "urban is the best/only way/etc" crowd will continue to look down on us that we use cars to get places. I don't think any less of my area because we don't have sidewalks and some grand plan of Utopia that so many have. Is it perfect? No. Is it a perfectly capable area with access to what I need, parks, golf, a giant lake, etc? Yes. I grow tired of so many academic placemakers crapping on where I live because it doesn't fit thier ideal place.

I live in suburbia. I'm not one of those urban snobs. But living in suburbia is what frustrates me with how they build things. Like I said in another thread, the Memorial Rd. corridor looks like someone playing Sim City. Just plopping down buildings and parking lots wherever there's an empty space with no thought to how the buildings, places and areas can or should interect with each other. They're each their own entity on an island instead of existing together with some sort of symbiosis. Better planning and better building would make that a more enjoyable area.

I can see such places 20 or 30 years down the road as their EIFS gets stained or chipped, no one cares to take care of the structures not built to last past a generation and no one keeps it looking nice. Because it was built without thought or care in the first place.

I still have a friend who lives in Warwick. And when I go there it just saddens me to see the areas where I used to go and hang out have become empty and no one seemingly cares about them anymore. My teenage memories have been left to rot. I don't mean to crap on where you live. I get it. I hate when people do that to me. I guess I'm just emotionally invested because that's where my teen years were spent. And I'm sure the area is good enough and serves a purpose now. But is that all you want, good enough?

[Joe Kimball]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this area. In fact if you will be lucky if you find a house under a $150,000 in that area. What killed that shopping center was the fire at Time Out for Burgers. It damaged both the restraunt and the grocery store. Since then it has sat empty and Walls should have never moved there in the first place. They were lucky if ten customers a day shopped in that store. When I lived there back in 2008 I made it a point to visit at least twice a week. Walls is one of those stores you can find a killer deal you just have to pick through the junk.

In my honest opinion, Westlake would be the best fit for that area and they would probably bring in customers from that area and far North of Memorial. Not everybody likes to go to Home Depot or Lowes for everything. Since I moved to Midwest City I find myself in Westlake more often then big box stores. The employees know the store, they know the products and they know how to do the simple repairs. You can rarely find that in the big box stores.

It would be misleading to say that the fire did not have some effect on the shopping center as a whole, but the fire was confined entirely to the Mexican restaurant that was the second or third successor to have taken over the old Time Out! spot, which was right at the end. The fire did not hit the grocery store, to my immediate knowledge, and it was open throughout...not for long, mind, as it did close sometime after 9/11. But the writing was on the wall before then with prices being higher than nearby stores such as the new Walmart Neighborhood.

[rezman]

In the mid 80's, when I worked for a residential painting crew, we worked on a lot of homes in Val Verde, Bocage, and across 122nd in Summerfield, and Summer Medows.

All, and I mean ALL of the homes in Bocage and Val Verde were custom spec homes. Not a tract or cookie cutter in the bunch. We, along with other crews, did some beautiful work in there. We ate at Time Out regularly, and sometimes ran down Macarthur to Mazio's. There was still a lot of open space out there at the time.

The development towards the west around Rockwell, even back then, already looked kind of desolate to me.

[ylouder]

I decided that this subject needed more info than my vague phone posting. We rented in this area this summer after our previous home sold and were waiting for new construction to be finished. It was a great area, lots of good homes with lots of character, tons of different parks and trails, good restaurants and easy access to rest of the city and is more suburb in feeling than most of Edmond. I rode my bike at lake Hefner each week and took my kids to bluff creek park each weekend. We actually discussed losing our deposit and looking for a home in the area BUT, everyone we talked too was dead set on telling us how the place had passed its prime and was going to go to hell by the time our kids got into school….

That’s why I mentioned how okc loves to create rolling ghettos. This is a very nice part of town but the way the okc metro is setup only the places on the fringe of civilization increase in value while dilapidation sets in everywhere else. Once a place the development phase is over a new boom starts somewhere else. Since we aren’t land lock there is little incentive to maintain a nice area and it will be a matter of time before the same happens to Edmond west of i35 and north of Kilpatrick and Yukon, Moore etc. Right now everyones is all about deer creek and piedmont and its going to be same within a decade or two.

Just another endless expanse of empty strip malls

[Jim Kyle]

That’s why I mentioned how okc loves to create rolling ghettos.

Don't put all the blame on OKC. Give a good share of it to the federal government, with its tax-credit subsidies for creating Section 8 housing developments as close as possible to these suburban areas. A large part of the decline for PC North can be traced directly to those, although it's very politically incorrect to point this out...

[ylouder]

You hit another nail on the head with your post. I grew up in a working class neighborhood in Tulsa and today it is almost entirely section 8 and older people who have lived there for decades. It used to be a nice quite section of town with two lane roads and well maintained yards but not today. Section 8 destroyed the neighborhood by running off home owners and replacing them with renters. To this day im still amazed that a section 8 person can rent a 1500 sqft 3 bedroom 2 bathroom house…. Where do needs end and where do wants start?

Whenever developers go into a new area they always build big nice houses, middle class houses, working class---then after development stalls they start building apartments to unload the rest of the land and move on to the next project. With the apartments come high density problems and home prices fall and people with the means start looking for greener pastures and then the whole area downturns.

It’s the irrational (usually) fear of what will this place be like in 10 years that pushes people to move further and further out. Until gas skyrockets again or unless you have natural barriers to growth the trend just continues.

But with that said when we were out in the area we never had a problem and never saw anything that you wouldn’t see in any of the other suburbs. It’s just an illustration how a suburb growth is hard to maintain long term and maintain their luster when the building boom is over and it’s just a bunch of cookie cutter houses, walgreens, fast food places, and grocery stores.

When I was growing up Broken Arrow and Putnam City were the places to live, now people unreasonably act like you’re talking about a 3 rd world country.

[traxx]

Right now everyones is all about deer creek and piedmont and its going to be same within a decade or two.

Just another endless expanse of empty strip malls

I overheard two dudes at work talking about living in Piedmont and wishing there was more out there. I guess they meant stores, retail etc. I was thinking to myself, "Isn't that the reason you moved out there? To get away from the congestion of the city?" But stores always follow the people. Soon it will be built up out there and they'll move further out to get away from it all.

[Pete]

Don't put all the blame on OKC. Give a good share of it to the federal government, with its tax-credit subsidies for creating Section 8 housing developments as close as possible to these suburban areas. A large part of the decline for PC North can be traced directly to those, although it's very politically incorrect to point this out...

But for a property to be Section 8, you have to have landlords who will except that payment in the first place.

And the only reason they do is because it's the best they can get. My family used to own rental property around town and we only took Section 8 tenants reluctantly, as it was low rent and a pain in the rear dealing with the government.

Even though it's a bit of chicken and egg, an area first has to go into decline before you get a lot of Section 8 tenants.

[Filthy]

Section 8 housing developments as close as possible to these suburban areas. A large part of the decline for PC North can be traced directly to those, although it's very politically incorrect to point this out...

No need to be politically correct when it comes to the well being of family and friends, and the obvious decline of the area mentioned. I won't sugar coat the obvious, and I'm not trying to "**** on anyone's home turf." But that area of NW OKC has possibly declined faster than any other area that I can think of. 122nd/Council 122nd/Rockwell 122nd/Macarthur, and south from there, all the way to Britton. Take a drive through any of the neighborhoods that were built in the late 70's early 80's in that area. They are all run down, broken down cars in driveways, cars sitting in the streets with flat tires, unmowed yards. Its sad really. Its not "ghetto status," but its well on its way. Putnam City schools in that area use to be some of the best, but now the Wiley Post, Will Rogers, and Ralph Downs elementary schools are filled with children that are more comparable to "inner city" schools. 15-20 years ago, Putnam City North HS could be discussed amongst the better schools in the state. Today, I wouldn't be comfortable attending a school sponsored program/athletic event after dark.

Its a damn shame, because this was my "stomping grounds...where I grew up, where I went to school, and where I spent all of my time and money."

[PhilTLL]

Why won't those poor people just stay in the neighborhoods they already have? The utter nerve. Maybe we could build fences around them or something. I've heard some even want--not need; poors should only get the bare minimum to survive--I've heard they want houses of moderate size with more than one bathroom. Can you even imagine.

[zookeeper]

Why won't those poor people just stay in the neighborhoods they already have? The utter nerve. Maybe we could build fences around them or something. I've heard some even want--not need; poors should only get the bare minimum to survive--I've heard they want houses of moderate size with more than one bathroom. Can you even imagine.

I'm not exactly a right-wing nut, and way more often than not side with "the least of these," but...what does being poor have to do with not being able to keep your house nice? Why do cars have to be on blocks? What does being poor have to do with mowing your yard? All of these things are within reach of anybody that can afford to be in those houses. I drive through this area all the time and know exactly what poster Filthy is talking about. Being poor doesn't give you a pass to not give a damn about your neighborhood, which begins with your own house.

[Prunepicker]

... My knowledge of the area is limited to 1988 and thereafter.

Before hand there wasn't much. I the early 80s I was driving to CSU,
now UCO, almost every day. There were a few things that changed.
The apartments on the NW corner appeared about 1981. The SE
corner is still not developed, and I'm very glad about that. The SW
corner began about 1981. Time Out was a spin off of Johnnie's
which was a spin off of the Split-T. Warwick was just starting to
develop.

That's what I remember.