Potential Tulsa - OKC Rail Line Sale

[LakeEffect]

I think a separate thread about this issue is in order. It relates somewhat to the passenger connection, but really is its own issue.

Read ODOT's press release here: http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/newsm..._rail_line.pdf

They received 4 bids: BNSF Railway, Watco (short line conglomerate and Stillwater Central owners - current operators), Iowa Pacific (owner various lines and operater of Eastern Flyer) and Fortress, Inc. (capital company and owners of Florida East Coast and the future All Aboard Florida passenger rail).

I'm impressed that ODOT received bids other than BNSF and Watco. That really shows the potential importance of this line. I'm also impressed that the 2 extra bidders are entering into private passenger rail. That could bode well for future operations.

ODOT points out that BNSF owns the rails on which the Heartland Flyer uses, and that shouldn't present an issue for potential future passenger rail operations...

The level interest suggest that the State should be able to get a good overall price for this line, but I believe that citizens need to ensure that passenger rail projections are set in the contract before the line is transferred.

[CaptDave]

To build upon your thoughts - I think we must make sure provisions in any sale contract will make any passenger service viable. This means any operator s granted access to Tulsa Union and OKC Santa Fe station - no exceptions. Passenger service on this line must receive priority over freight - no sitting on a siding for multiple freights to pass. The line needs to be upgraded to support 60 - 75 mph speeds. A minimum of 8 round trip passenger trains per week day must be part of the service - I think at least 3 or 4 should be express trains from OKC to Tulsa. Weekend service still needs to be frequent enough to make it a real option.

Just a few thoughts. I still do not think the state should sell the line, but it does appear inevitable.

[BG918]

I know in Tulsa it's not guaranteed that the Art Deco Union Depot would be used as the terminus. The Oklahoma Jazz Hall of Fame is currently in that building and before that it was converted to offices so much of the transportation programming is gone. Ideas I've heard include having a new multimodal transportation hub on the tracks between the Brady and Blue Dome areas (2 blocks east) that could also include a new bus depot and could tie into future commuter rail lines and downtown streetcars, similar to what OKC is doing with Santa Fe. A second stop by the BOK Center has also been discussed and could be used for special events (like how Victory station is used in Dallas).

[CaptDave]

^ That sounds like an excellent location. Makes perfect sense. I wasn't sure how settled the museum was n Tulsa Union Station.

[OKCisOK4me]

Let's just hope that Berkshire Hathaway gets outbid!

[catch22]

BNSF will be awarded the line. They could have bid $1.50. This is about the "best overall bid" to support the energy industry. BNSF contributes heavily to Mary Fallin, who is over Gary Ridley.

This whole thing is sickening.

[OKCisOK4me]

BNSF will be awarded the line. They could have bid $1.50. This is about the "best overall bid" to support the energy industry. BNSF contributes heavily to Mary Fallin, who is over Gary Ridley.

This whole thing is sickening.

It's a damned dirty shame...

[LakeEffect]

BNSF will be awarded the line. They could have bid $1.50. This is about the "best overall bid" to support the energy industry. BNSF contributes heavily to Mary Fallin, who is over Gary Ridley.

This whole thing is sickening.

They do? In 2013, their only contribution was to the Oklahoma Speaker's Ball (mind you, $10,000). Using the old OK system of researching contributions, I see one more entry to Mary Fallin for Lt. Gov. in 1998 - a contribution of $500.

[catch22]

Perhaps I am thinking of a different company. My money is still on BNSF.

[LakeEffect]

Perhaps I am thinking of a different company. My money is still on BNSF.

Not Union Pacific:
UNION PACIFIC CORPORATION FUND FOR EFFECTIVE GOVERNMENT FRIENDS OF SENATOR JAY PAUL GUMM 2006 106027 $500.00
Union Pacific Corp. Fund Mike Mazzei for State Senate 2008 108003 $2,000.00
Union Pacific Corporation Fund Friends Of Dennis R. Bailey In 2010 110180 $250.00
Union Pacific Railroad Company Oklahoma Speaker's Ball, Inc. 204067 $250.00

Not BNSF:

BNSF RailPAC Friends For Lewis Moore 2010 110151 $500.00
BNSF Railway Company Oklahoma Speaker's Ball, Inc. 204067 $10,000.00

No contributions from Watco, Iowa Pacific or Fortress in the database period...

https://www.ok.gov/ethics/crs/index.php

If we're going to debate the consequences and hope to have an effective voice when listing our concerns, let's make sure our assumptions are correct.

[Buffalo Bill]

The line needs to be upgraded to support 60 - 75 mph speeds.

This is not possible.

[catch22]

This is not possible.

It does take quite a few turns...

[CaptDave]

This is not possible.

To be clear I did not mean that as an average speed for the trip. Higher speeds are possible with some alignment changes to increase the radius of several curves. The grade crossings would require some work as well.

[catch22]

There are certainly some stretches that could support higher speeds. But others look very "kinked".

[CaptDave]

^ Exactly.

[OKCisOK4me]

To be clear I did not mean that as an average speed for the trip. Higher speeds are possible with some alignment changes to increase the radius of several curves. The grade crossings would require some work as well.

I'd like to see this done. All Class I railroads have done this at one time or another. Look at high resolution satellite views of BNSF's transcon and you'll easily see they've (AT&SF) shortened their routes before by reducing curvature allowing for higher speeds than what were previously capable. Is it worth it though for BNSF on this route? I can't see them excited about running freight at 40MPH. I'm betting they'd like to transfer their loads faster.

[catch22]

It's such a short stage length, it doesn't really matter. 60 miles at 40mph is about an hour and a half. 60 miles at 60 is an hour. To a tanker car full of oil, that 30 minutes of time doesn't really matter. To the businessman, commuter, or leisure passenger, that extra 30 minutes would matter quite a bit.

[Dubya61]

It's such a short stage length, it doesn't really matter. 60 miles at 40mph is about an hour and a half. 60 miles at 60 is an hour. To a tanker car full of oil, that 30 minutes of time doesn't really matter. To the businessman, commuter, or leisure passenger, that extra 30 minutes would matter quite a bit.

I'm not even sure it would matter to the traveler. There is so much more convenience involved in NOT having a car that it doesn't need to be a bullet train to be desirable.

[LakeEffect]

Repost from the passenger rail thread - The Tulsa World has a good article recapping the first Eastern Flyer run. Oklahoma's Eastern Flyer takes first voyage - Tulsa World: Sapulpa Business

"Ed Ellis, president of Iowa Pacific, which is operating demonstration rides, said he hopes the Oklahoma Department of Transportation chooses his company to run the line. If so, Ellis said the plan would be to quickly have eight trains running between Tulsa and Oklahoma City during the week, as well as five running each weekend.

Antonio Perez, president and CEO of Talgo, Inc., a Seattle, Wash., a high-speed train manufacturer also made the trip and said he saw a great opportunity in northeast Oklahoma."

This solidifies Iowa Pacific's interest in the line, and the prospects are intriguing. I'm also curious about Talgo's involvement - could they be financial backers of an IP bid?

[Just the facts]

8 and 5 - I assume then those would be each way, so 8/5 trains a day to Tulsa and 8/5 trains a day to OKC. I imagine then it would only be a matter of time before Lawton wanted in on the act - and so begins the dominoes falling. We already know Chickasha wants rail to OKC.

[CaptDave]

I am cautiously optimistic. BNSF remains the 800lb gorilla in this though. I do not think ODOT and some of our elected officials are inoculated from their influence. Encourage interested people to write letters to the Governor and their state Senators and Reps. It really is the only thing we have to influence the decision.

[Just the facts]

I am cautiously optimistic. BNSF remains the 800lb gorilla in this though.

Does anyone know what the rail facility is at Stroud; is it a pipeline terminal?

[AP]

Do they have a plan to get to OKC and not just Midwest City? I'm excited for the possibility but if it just goes from Sapulpa to MWC, doesn't seem like it would be very practical.

[CaptDave]

Does anyone know what the rail facility is at Stroud; is it a pipeline terminal?

Transload pipeline to Cushing. Great info in the linked WATCO pdf. Certainly appears a win-win isn't enough for BNSF.

http://www.watcocompanies.com/Media/...20Dispatch.pdf

[CaptDave]

Do they have a plan to get to OKC and not just Midwest City? I'm excited for the possibility but if it just goes from Sapulpa to MWC, doesn't seem like it would be very practical.

The original sale contract requires BNSF to permit operation on their right of way to downtown Tulsa. (ODOT has conveniently "forgot" to state this when they talk about the sale of the Sooner Sub.) I think it says 4 trains per day.

The OKC link is being worked on now. There is a way to bring it to Santa Fe station but will require working out an agreement with UP and/or BNSF. The easy way is through the UP facility east of I235, through Bricktown, and rebuilding the trestle of the wye that once existed to get on the Santa Fe station platform viaduct. The leg of the wye needed is the reason people responded negatively to the Karchmer (sp?) garage proposal as that plan would have eliminated the best, most direct route to link downtown Tulsa with downtown OKC.