Century Center

[betts]

I thought it was an odd location for a CVS as well. We usually use a pharmacy in the evening, and that's the one direction we don't go at night because there's not much there. Now we have Park House and Flint is there, but most of the other restaurants are closed at night. I'd be just as happy with a Midtown location.

[Spartan]

I want to see this type of development as much as anyone, but I'm sorry, people on here have an outsized opinion of the present appeal of downtown to national retailers who live and die by the spreadsheet. I understand that the tiny but growing population to the north and east provide an appealing demographic mix.

But if it were based on the afore-mentioned one mile radius and you looked at it on a map, everything from half-past-two on the clock face to the ten o'clock position would consist of office, industrial, and brownfield, with some hotel rooms sprinkled in. If you went beyond a mile in those directions, it becomes even more depressing...in a hurry.

This type of retail is probably going to require some combination of the following:

1. A leap of faith on the part of the retailer (easier when the retailer is local)
2. Crazy sales tax collection reports for the zip code in question
3. Elapsed time (simply put: more rooftops)
4. Subsidy

Honestly, if it's going to happen organically, I think it's more likely to happen north of this location, perhaps in Midtown. I didn't disbelieve that it was happening, but if it doesn't I understand why.

Ed Shadid recently referred to a downtown population of 2,000. The US Census indicated 6,000 people living downtown in 2010, which is a very big difference. We've grown a lot since 2010 and are on pace to keep adding downtown residents by the thousands.

Once we hit 10 and 15,000 downtown residents that should tip the scale for retail.

[Urbanized]

Pete had a reliable number somewhere but I'm too lazy to try to find it. I think there are enough new projects on the books that once they are built the population number could be more persuasive. The problem is that we will probably need to wait for the to be completed. National retailers are the opposite of risk-takers, and don't do anything based on faith or on confidence in the yet-to-be-realized future of an area.

[hoya]

Yeah, I don't think this will be a problem for too much longer. Once the current projects have been completed we'll have a lot more people downtown. It might take 3 or 4 years, which I know is a long time to the folks already living here, but it will go by pretty quickly all things considered.

[soonerguru]

Here's my question: According to what we've read, CVS was seriously interested in this location. If it never met their threshold for development why were they even considering it? Same goes for the restaurant that was being discussed. Could it be there's more to this story and things broke down during negotiations with the owner? In other words, if this location never fit what they would develop why were they even entertaining it?

[BDP]

Looks like Walgreens will just have to build two locations on the same corner opposite each other

Ha. Yeah, I doubt CVS looked at any numbers. They just looked at Google street view and said, "wait, where's the Walgreen's?"

I want to see this type of development as much as anyone, but I'm sorry, people on here have an outsized opinion of the present appeal of downtown to national retailers who live and die by the spreadsheet. I understand that the tiny but growing population to the north and east provide an appealing demographic mix.

But if it were based on the afore-mentioned one mile radius and you looked at it on a map, everything from half-past-two on the clock face to the ten o'clock position would consist of office, industrial, and brownfield, with some hotel rooms sprinkled in. If you went beyond a mile in those directions, it becomes even more depressing...in a hurry.

This type of retail is probably going to require some combination of the following:

A leap of faith on the part of the retailer (easier when the retailer is local)
Crazy sales tax collection reports for the zip code in question
Elapsed time (simply put: more rooftops)
Subsidy

Honestly, if it's going to happen organically, I think it's more likely to happen north of this location, perhaps in Midtown. I didn't disbelieve that it was happening, but if it doesn't I understand why.

I agree. From that location heading south, you have to cross the river before you run in to any residential. So, if they're looking at numbers using a fixed radius, the southern half of the circle is basically empty.

Midtown and AA make a lot more sense. The inclusion of HH and Mesta would help the income and education demo too.

Your time line is probably pretty good too. Once Maywood, Metropolitan and the Edge are complete and the streetcar's running up and down Broadway and Robinson, I think this is when they'll get interested.

Personally, I hope it gets filled up with local businesses first, but independent pharmacies that are like CVS and Wallgreen's are pretty much extinct.

[Urbanized]

...I agree. From that location heading south, you have to cross the river before you run in to any residential. So, if they're looking at numbers using a fixed radius, the southern half of the circle is basically empty.

Yep. Even worse than that I think...I would call it the entire SW 3/4 of the radius. If I'm a national retail location scout not from here I laugh in the face of someone who shows me that location. The fact that apparently they were strongly considering it at some point actually speaks volumes about the positive picture that the broker have painted. That is a recommendation for the people putting this project together, even if they didn't get this one across the line.

...Personally, I hope it gets filled up with local businesses first, but independent pharmacies that are like CVS and Wallgreen's are pretty much extinct.

Yeah, I am a strong proponent of local retail, but here is one area where I think a national would be best for downtown (although I hate it for the Medicine Chest). The problem with locals in this segment is that they are almost exclusively drugstores, while a CVS/Walgreens also relieves some of the pent-up demand for a grocery store without stepping on Native Roots. In fact, I think it complements NR, as has been pointed out previously. It is also a "safe" place for the many visitors, both business and leisure, in downtown.

[Pete]

As I've stated before, chain retailers look very hard at 1-, 3- and 5-mile radii; primarily population and income.

In this case, they would also take into consideration the immediate workforce as they have plenty of locations in downtown areas.

I don't know for sure it was demographics that killed this deal, but wouldn't be surprised. I spoke to Walgreens a couple of years ago (I used to represent them in OK when I was a real estate broker) and they told me they felt their 23rd & Classen location served most the people to the south and east (Gatewood, Heritage Hills, Mesta Park, Paseo, Jeff Park) and had no interest in downtown.

Of course, there is a CVS at 23rd & Classen as well.

[bchris02]

As I've stated before, chain retailers look very hard at 1-, 3- and 5-mile radii; primarily population and income.

In this case, they would also take into consideration the immediate workforce as they have plenty of locations in downtown areas.

I don't know for sure it was demographics that killed this deal, but wouldn't be surprised. I spoke to Walgreens a couple of years ago (I used to represent them in OK when I was a real estate broker) and they told me they felt their 23rd & Classen location served most the people to the south and east (Gatewood, Heritage Hills, Mesta Park, Paseo, Jeff Park) and had no interest in downtown.

Of course, there is a CVS at 23rd & Classen as well.

Am I right to say that for chain retailers and grocers, it takes more rooftops to meet their criteria in a state like ours where they can't sell wine and strong beer?

Regardless, this may end up for the best. CVS (or Walgreens) may end up at a more attractive, convenient location than Century Center. In my opinion it would do best on the ground floor of a residential development.

[Urbanized]

I think the thing that I like(d?) best about the location is (was?) the visibility. Truthfully, knowing what I do about downtown, about visitors, about vehicle traffic patterns, etc., I personally would prefer the south facade Century Center location to something north of the core, if I were doing their site selection. I really do think it was an excellent location for this. But, I'm not, and they don't.

[Spartan]

Here's my question: According to what we've read, CVS was seriously interested in this location. If it never met their threshold for development why were they even considering it? Same goes for the restaurant that was being discussed. Could it be there's more to this story and things broke down during negotiations with the owner? In other words, if this location never fit what they would develop why were they even entertaining it?

Bump

[Pete]

^

Because every location for a chain store goes through a multi-level approval stage.

These deals usually start with a commercial real estate broker marketing a property and pushing for a deal. The real estate rep for the chain with responsibility for the area takes a look at it, usually says no, broker/developer keeps working them.

Finally, the real estate rep says they are willing to look at it, and the negotiation starts.

Usually from the beginning the next level of management within the retail organization takes a look at the general deal but doesn't make any decisions.

As negotiations continue, the deal can die before it ever gets past the real estate rep. They might not like the terms or they get nervous about the location, or something changes such as the chain is pulling back in general, or they found another deal close by or they merely place other markets / areas as high priorities.

Even after the deal is negotiated with the real estate rep, it has to be approved by several levels above. They may reject based on demographics, broader issues within the organization, or local issues, such as other stores in the market are bigger priorities. Or, they may push back for a better deal, and the developer rejects.

In the end, everyone has to agree or the deal gets squashed.

Many, many times as a broker I had a deal about 98% done and something in corporate killed it. And in more than one case, we had agreements signed and the deals still cratered.

[soonerguru]

Yep. Even worse than that I think...I would call it the entire SW 3/4 of the radius. If I'm a national retail location scout not from here I laugh in the face of someone who shows me that location. The fact that apparently they were strongly considering it at some point actually speaks volumes about the positive picture that the broker have painted. That is a recommendation for the people putting this project together, even if they didn't get this one across the line.



Yeah, I am a strong proponent of local retail, but here is one area where I think a national would be best for downtown (although I hate it for the Medicine Chest). The problem with locals in this segment is that they are almost exclusively drugstores, while a CVS/Walgreens also relieves some of the pent-up demand for a grocery store without stepping on Native Roots. In fact, I think it complements NR, as has been pointed out previously. It is also a "safe" place for the many visitors, both business and leisure, in downtown.

I love the Medicine Chest, but it's only really a place to get your script filled between 8 and 5:30 during weekdays. It is nothing like a full-service pharmacy that sells groceries and has advanced hours.

[Urbanized]

Indeed. That was my point. Though I would expect a national chain to eat into the Medicine Chest's business.

[soonerguru]

Indeed. That was my point. Though I would expect a national chain to eat into the Medicine Chest's business.

As someone who frequents the Medicine Chest, I mildly disagree. They are incredibly nice and very fast. If you see one of the physicians in the First National Building, they often will have your script filled by the time you walk across the hall.

I have a Walgreen's in my neighborhood, and while I like it, it is anything but prompt when getting a prescription filled.

Because Medicine Chest focuses on medicine -- and virtually nothing else (although I always got a kick out of the selection of hosiery for sale) -- I don't see them being affected much.

[HOT ROD]

too bad we couldn't convince medicine chest to open a streetfront in fnc. that would be epic and they could have their own hours as they please; need I mention the visibility and 'vibrance' it'd add to the cbd.

[soonerguru]

too bad we couldn't convince medicine chest to open a streetfront in fnc. that would be epic and they could have their own hours as they please; need I mention the visibility and 'vibrance' it'd add to the cbd.

I don't think they have any interest in expanding their hours, which would cut in to the "vibrancy."

[Just the facts]

Here's my question: According to what we've read, CVS was seriously interested in this location. If it never met their threshold for development why were they even considering it? Same goes for the restaurant that was being discussed. Could it be there's more to this story and things broke down during negotiations with the owner? In other words, if this location never fit what they would develop why were they even entertaining it?

I wonder if the recently announced Park Ave Retail Enhancement Plan had anything to do with it. Depending on what comes out of that RFP they might have considered it better to wait and see what happens. There could be more money available, a better retail mix, or some other factor.

http://www.okctalk.com/general-real-...il-studay.html

[LuccaBrasi]

I think Pete already eluded to it......once the CVS deal went higher up the chain for approval, they vetoed the deal. I heard they backed out because the lack of roof tops in the radius that Pete also mentioned. I doubt the CVS brass was looking at all the new roof tops to come on line, and were likely just looking at what exists today. That scared them into backing out, and once they backed out, the bakery was right behind them.

[betts]

Keep it local! Corner Bakery is alright, but I'm not too distressed, considering all the local alternatives. It's hard to beat Prairie Thunder for pastries and Browns for doughnuts.

[HangryHippo]

Keep it local! Corner Bakery is alright, but I'm not too distressed, considering all the local alternatives. It's hard to beat Prairie Thunder for pastries and Browns for doughnuts.

It's quite easy to surpass Brown's for donuts. Brown's has the worst donuts I've ever had.

[Urbanized]

Maybe, but the sausage rolls are like crack.

[betts]

Browns has the ugliest doughnuts, but I think they're delicious personally.

[Urbanized]

They have donuts? I have sausage roll blinders on when I go into that place.

[Pete]

Keep it local! Corner Bakery is alright, but I'm not too distressed, considering all the local alternatives. It's hard to beat Prairie Thunder for pastries and Browns for doughnuts.

And Kitchen no. 324 is just two blocks north.