RUMOR: I-240 Like Loop Through Moore/Norman Area?!?

[Plutonic Panda]

8 lanes from South OKC to the Texas border for $880 million. Somebody at ODOT forgot to drop down a couple of zeros.

It's not like they are reconstructing they whole highway like they were with I-40. It's two lanes each way added. It's doable. Not sure if it really needs it, but it's doable.

[ljbab728]

It's not like they are reconstructing they whole highway like they were with I-40. It's two lanes each way added. It's doable. Not sure if it really needs it, but it's doable.

Plupan, I'm shocked that you aren't sure a freeway needs more lanes.

[Just the facts]

It's not like they are reconstructing they whole highway like they were with I-40. It's two lanes each way added. It's doable. Not sure if it really needs it, but it's doable.

Every bridge, overpass, underpass, and interchange would need to be rebuilt. Any idea how many of those there are between Norman and Texas?

[venture]

Every bridge, overpass, underpass, and interchange would need to be rebuilt. Any idea how many of those there are between Norman and Texas?

Don't forget dynamiting through the Arbuckles.

[ljbab728]

Don't forget dynamiting through the Arbuckles.

Not necessary, venture. They can just build one of Plupan's favorite flyovers. LOL

[bchris02]

Do you have a link to that news article?

Something like this would be pretty neat to see someday.

I think the western extension of the Kilpatrick you show from Yukon down to north Norman could be doable and successful even today. I am not sure there is currently the demand for the eastern loop though. I do like the spur from the 44/35 junction down to Tinker AFB. I think a better way is needed to get from Edmond to the east metro area. However, there is so much development along that path through Midwest City I don't see a freeway ever being possible there.

[Plutonic Panda]

Plupan, I'm shocked that you aren't sure a freeway needs more lanes.

Not sure if it needs to be 8 lanes, I was thinking 20 j/k

[Plutonic Panda]

Every bridge, overpass, underpass, and interchange would need to be rebuilt. Any idea how many of those there are between Norman and Texas?

You have a point, but would they really need to reconstruct every single one?

[Roger S]

Don't forget dynamiting through the Arbuckles.

I-35 is already 3 lanes through most of the Arbuckle's. They have the slow lane for semis to the top of the grade on both sides.

[Roger S]

You have a point, but would they really need to reconstruct every single one?

No. They would widen them like they have done the bridge over the South Canadian.

[SoonerDave]

A Plan at one time (dot is buying right of way ... have a relative that lives on 102S ) Starting at Hwy 102 S (Grand Casino Exit) Going S to Hwy #9 Then West to Norman and I-35. This Would be a Loop, 4 lane hwy all the way.
Then there was a Plan to 4 lane all the way From Norman into Tecumseh up to Hwy 177 on hwy 9 , Hwy 177 4 lanes ends at Hwy 9 east of Tecumseh. Then use the existing 4 lane (Hwy 177) to link into I-40 going North.
Yes i remenber that east of Choctaw going s to hook up at I-40 and I believe it was Choctaw rd as the loop rd. This weeks Choctaw news is has a piece of news about 6 lanes for I-40 from I-240 east to county line.

Years ago I remember hearing from a guy who lived in Norman about a group of investors back in the 80's/90's trying to put together a package for a big pro football stadium somehwere in the Hwy 9/west side of Norman area, all in conjunction with a big, new highway project...sure sounds like it might have been this very one....the plans supposedly died when someone from OKC told the investors it would mess up their downtown revitalization plans that were in the works...lol

[LakeEffect]

I think the western extension of the Kilpatrick you show from Yukon down to north Norman could be doable and successful even today. I am not sure there is currently the demand for the eastern loop though. I do like the spur from the 44/35 junction down to Tinker AFB. I think a better way is needed to get from Edmond to the east metro area. However, there is so much development along that path through Midwest City I don't see a freeway ever being possible there.

The routing of the SW loop from Yukon to Norman has been elimated due to construction of neighborhoods across the alignment... Any loop would have to go far SW, taking it too far out to make any sort of sense.

Rep. Joyner has filed a bill to require ODOT to complete a study for a 4-lane highway/expressway in eastern Oklahoma County this session, FYI. HB2494 Bill Information I, for one, would be opposed to any new highway construction in Oklahoma County or the surrounding counties.

"The Department of Transportation shall conduct a comprehensive
engineering study concerning the construction of a high-speed
limited-access four-lane highway solution in Oklahoma County, east
of Tinker Air Force Base. The results of the study shall be
submitted to the Governor, the Speaker of the House of
Representatives and the President Pro Tempore of the Senate no later
than December 31, 2015."

[Just the facts]

The routing of the SW loop from Yukon to Norman has been elimated due to construction of neighborhoods across the alignment... "

I don't get it. Why would ODOT care about cutting a neighborhood in half? They never cared before because every freeway they ever built did exactly that.

[LakeEffect]

I don't get it. Why would ODOT care about cutting a neighborhood in half? They never cared before because every freeway they ever built did exactly that.

Is that a rhetorical question?

[LakeEffect]

Even though I know you the answer, I'll respond. ODOT built other highways through neighborhoods because they were generally inhabited by minority populations with little economic clout, who therefore could not fight the projects.

[adaniel]

Think about it this way. The Centennial Expressway and Lake Hefner Parkway opened up within 2-3 years of each other. The Centennial was blasted through a then populated and largely poor and run down Deep Deuce with little care for the surrounding neighborhood. Lake Hefner Parkway runs near affluent areas like Quail Creek and has gentle curves, no streetlights, no overhead signs, etc. to minimize visual blight.

Two different freeways built during the same time and their approach to design couldn't be more different. The only real difference is the project area these two went through.

[OKCisOK4me]

Every bridge, overpass, underpass, and interchange would need to be rebuilt. Any idea how many of those there are between Norman and Texas?

Including even drainage ditches, approximately 88 structures or more counting the Canadian River bridge and the Red River bridge.... I was bored.

[Plutonic Panda]

No. They would widen them like they have done the bridge over the South Canadian.

That's what I thought. There might some deficient bridges that might need to be replaced, but other than that, I don't see them replacing every bridge.

[Plutonic Panda]

The routing of the SW loop from Yukon to Norman has been elimated due to construction of neighborhoods across the alignment... Any loop would have to go far SW, taking it too far out to make any sort of sense.

Rep. Joyner has filed a bill to require ODOT to complete a study for a 4-lane highway/expressway in eastern Oklahoma County this session, FYI. HB2494 Bill Information I, for one, would be opposed to any new highway construction in Oklahoma County or the surrounding counties.

"The Department of Transportation shall conduct a comprehensive
engineering study concerning the construction of a high-speed
limited-access four-lane highway solution in Oklahoma County, east
of Tinker Air Force Base. The results of the study shall be
submitted to the Governor, the Speaker of the House of
Representatives and the President Pro Tempore of the Senate no later
than December 31, 2015."

I would support it. I know, I know, big surprise, but I think it could some good out there.

[Plutonic Panda]

I don't get it. Why would ODOT care about cutting a neighborhood in half? They never cared before because every freeway they ever built did exactly that.

I thought those weren't neighborhoods?

[venture]

They punted on the SW loop when they decided to just take Highway 4 due south to I-44 where the Hwy 9 interchange is. Would be nice to at least see a spur build roughly along Indian Hills or near Tecumseh out to the Newcastle exit of I-44 (Hwy 62/277). That adds in another bridge across the river and doesn't make people drive well to the southwest out of the way. It also allows people going to the airport to completely avoid the cluster of Moore and I-240/35 during rush hour - especially when they start to rebuild that interchange in the next 39 years.

An east side loops seems pretty pointless right now. Of course anything new would have to be completely tolled. There isn't enough money as it is.

[rte66man]

Think about it this way. The Centennial Expressway and Lake Hefner Parkway opened up within 2-3 years of each other. The Centennial was blasted through a then populated and largely poor and run down Deep Deuce with little care for the surrounding neighborhood. Lake Hefner Parkway runs near affluent areas like Quail Creek and has gentle curves, no streetlights, no overhead signs, etc. to minimize visual blight.

Two different freeways built during the same time and their approach to design couldn't be more different. The only real difference is the project area these two went through.

Your statement is wrong on so many counts that it's hard to know where to start on a rebuttal. While the statement "The only real difference is the project area these two went through" is correct on its face, its those exact differences that decided the design. Both routes had been present on planning documents (an most roadmaps) since the early 60's if not before. The ROW for the LHP had already been preserved as it was part of Grand Boulevard (north of 39th St to the lake), then they took parkland for most of the rest (up past Hefner Rd). I recall well just how much open space was at the junction of Grand and NW Hwy. I also remember the dogfight there was to get enough parkland to build it around the east side of the lake. I know there were no houses taken in the lake portion.

I235 on the other hand did pass through so-called "blighted" areas. However, they did bury it from the end of the 23rd St/BNSF overpass down past NE 4th. That eliminated the need for sound barriers such as you see north of Hefner Rd on the LHP. The matter of overhead signage has more to do with MUTCD standards for interstate highways that an aesthetic decision by ODOT. Since LHP is only a state highway (and in a much less dense area of entrances and exits, there is no need for overhead sign gantries. That would have been a waste of $$$. I don't know what curves you deal with on 235 but the ones I drive are as gentle if not more gentle that the ones on the LHP.

<climbs down off soapbox>

[mugofbeer]

For Gods sake. If we whined about every neighborhood a highway cut through, OKC would be like Austin or Denver with u manageable traffic jams and far less economic success. Highways are put through areas that cost the least to cut through. Should they have cut the Hefner Parkway through Quail Creek solely to pay more money and even things out? Sometimes blight gets taken down. I'd far rather have OKC highway system. I dont hear any whining about I235s lights but here.........do YOU live near I235? Did you live there before it was built? Under what line of reason are you against ANY new highways in Oklahoma county? How unbelievably short and closed minded can you be?

[LakeEffect]

For Gods sake. If we whined about every neighborhood a highway cut through, OKC would be like Austin or Denver with u manageable traffic jams and far less economic success. Highways are put through areas that cost the least to cut through. Should they have cut the Hefner Parkway through Quail Creek solely to pay more money and even things out? Sometimes blight gets taken down. I'd far rather have OKC highway system. I dont hear any whining about I235s lights but here.........do YOU live near I235? Did you live there before it was built? Under what line of reason are you against ANY new highways in Oklahoma county? How unbelievably short and closed minded can you be?

Yes, I live 0.5 miles east of I-235. Lived 0.5 miles west of it from 2005-2012.

It's unbelievably short and closed minded to think that highways are necessary and "do some good out there" whenever built. The public funding required to build such a new road, in a sparsely populated area, far outweighs any potential benefit. It would encourage low density growth that would end up further stretching already thin public budgets.

Finally, who would pay for it? Repubs want to cut taxes (despite a revenue shortfall) - would you be ok with another toll road? The bill asks ODOT to study it, not OTA.

[Just the facts]

For Gods sake. If we whined about every neighborhood a highway cut through, OKC would be like Austin or Denver with u manageable traffic jams and far less economic success.

So you support ODOT continuing the southwestern outer-loop even if it goes right through existing subdivisions (thanks PluPlan for reminding me a subdivision is not neighborhood)?