Lackmeyer Interview With Randy Hogan 10-22-06

[johnnyboyokc]

again you are right....damn i hate that...our price point for hotels at a $189 a night are not luring conventions......i dont mind paying $500 a night at the colcord cause it is a boutique hotel but OKCCVB needs to market a lower hotel rate for conv..however like you said i think more hotels the better....because we are going to grow beyond bricktown ie..the river midtown airpark ect... and we need hotels that are not on meridian

[Midtowner]

It would be nice to see a strategic alliance emerge to attract some first-rate facilities. Development for lower bricktown will really open up once I-40 is moved.

With the amount of land available there, we can do a LOT better than surface parking and mid-sized hotels. A convention complex on the south end of the river complete with a large hotel would really be huge.

In all the places I've attended conferences at, nothing has anything like Bricktown so close and convenient.

[johnnyboyokc]

well i here there will be a maps three after the relocation of 40 and huge retail will be there....just rumors but great ones

[Pete]

We took a part of our Lower Bricktown plaza design from the Grove. It's real closed-in — I like it.

Just saw this.

What a complete joke! LB and The Grove couldn't possibly more dissimilar. What, did he copy part of the title pattern? Otherwise, those two developments have absolutely nothing in common.


I know Hogan is greedy and just trying to make money independent of the city's best interests but it also seems he's a total moron.

[Midtowner]

MalibuSooner:

Not true. He just thinks we're all morons. We're not, but there's not much we can do to stop him and his OCURA buddies from robbing the public in broad daylight.

[Luke]

As cheaply as those buildings are in Lower Bricktown, they should be able to demo them fairly easily making way for those with actual good ideas. Not that it'll happen anytime soon.

I think there is still enough land on the LB canal in the form of parking lots or empty areas that LB can be salvaged. Building wall to wall structures in LB would improve the feel a million times.

[Homer]

Wow. It's amazing how quickly people can throw stones at those on the frontlines. I won't defend Lower Bricktown from a design standpoint - I think a much higher quality standard could have and should have been applied. But I don't believe the hype that what happened was either illegal or unethical.

Those still whining about Moshe Tal (10 years later) should consider something. Through their destructive litigation, they have done more than anyone to kill the momentum of downtown development. In the process they've also put the city in overly protective position against incentivizing other future development projects (kind of shell shocked it seems).

Instead of piling on so much negative energy - do something. Make it happen. There's not another city like OKC with the opportunity to really make a positive impact in the urban core.

[Midtowner]

Shell shocked? Good!

Maybe the city will think next time before making sweetheart deals with developers who don't follow through?

As for not believing it's unethical or illegal, I know for a fact that some of the stuff was technically illegal.

In reference to the Bass Pro deal, the city passed MAPS. The Oklahoma Constitution says that tax increases such as that must be for a specific and stated purpose not to be changed without a vote of the people. Well... some of that public MAPS money was diverted for Bass Pro without a vote of the people.

It's in the Constitution plain as day. If you press me on the issue, I'll go get cites

As for my negative energy, for now, it's not negative, it's positive. I know exactly what kind of opportunity we have in Bricktown. Its proximity to the downtown area, the availability of choice land, and the potential for development are really unrivaled anywhere. When I see something which I think will bee bad for the future of my hometown, you'd better bet I'll let someone know.

As far as incentivizing future development, that's just wrong on its face. Any well connected developer (see: Grant Humpheries) can apply and generally be approved for whatever TIF money he or she wants to pocket in order to 'make a project profitable.'

The city and state learned a lesson in Bricktown -- if they're going to incentivize, they're now going to have a 'legitimate' means for doing so.

Tell ya what: If you are not a well-connected developer, see how far your application gets in trying to secure TIF money for something you want to build

[Pete]

The city wasn't so shell-shocked that they didn't turn around and essentially do the exact same thing by awarding Canfield's group development rights to The Hill, even though their own paid consultant recommended TAP & Co.'s design, primarily because it incorporated retail and was much more inventive and open to the community.

I won't rehash how and why that decision was made but it's a clear indication that the beat goes on with OCURA, the old boy network and our supposed civic leaders.

[Homer]

You mentioned The Hill and Block 42. Looking at those projects, the City approved a TIF amount equal to less than 6% of the total project budget. The unofficial national standard for TIF assistance is more like 10% (the standard in cities like Nashville).

If the City wants to rev up downtown development, they shouldn't be scared to go for more TIF. It's a great investment for the City - with strong coverage of the bondholder return - to be aggressive on TIF.

I haven't seen or heard of a viable downtown housing project that has been rejected on TIF. Instead, there are a lot of talkers, but few who actually perform.

[Popsy]

I am suprised to see Midtowner in this thread stating facts again that aren't facts, but then again it seems to be par for the course. Midtowner, you might need to add to your research as to what monies were used for Bass Pro. I am fairly certain the money did not come from MAPS.

[Midtowner]

Sorry Popsy, this time I'm right.

Of the amount used, $11,370,696 came from the MAPS fund, $3,034,294 came from teh City & Schools Capital Projects Use Tax Fund and $2,765,010 came from teh Public Safety Capital Use Tax Fund.

These of course were "loans" from those funds according to the "Amended Funding Plan for the COnstruction of Bass Pro Shops of September 23, 2003.

Why is it illegal?

See 68 O.S. section 2701 (B)

B. A sales tax authorized in subsection A of this section may be levied for limited purposes specified in the ordinance levying the tax. Such ordinance shall be submitted to the voters for approval as provided in Section 2705 of this title. Any sales tax levied or any change in the rate of a sales tax levied pursuant to the provisions of this section shall become effective on the first day of the calendar quarter following approval by the voters of the city or town unless another effective date, which shall also be on the first day of a calendar quarter, is specified in the ordinance levying the sales tax or changing the rate of sales tax. Such ordinance shall describe with specificity the projects or expenditures for which the limited-purpose tax levy would be made. The municipal governing body shall create a limited-purpose fund and deposit therein any revenue generated by any tax levied pursuant to this subsection. Money in the fund shall be accumulated from year to year. The fund shall be placed in an insured interest-bearing account and the interest which accrues on the fund shall be retained in the fund. The fund shall be nonfiscal and shall not be considered in computing any levy when the municipality makes its estimate to the excise board for needed appropriations. Money in the limited-purpose tax fund shall be expended only as accumulated and only for the purposes specifically described in the taxing ordinance as approved by the voters.

The original MAPS proposal, here, you'll note had no Bass Pro in it:

Original proposal backed by council
2003-12-07



This is how MAPS originally was proposed to voters, as reported in The Oklahoman on Dec. 10, 1993.

The Oklahoma City Council approved the Metropolitan Area Projects (MAPS) plan on Oct. 13 as a comprehensive plan to bring Oklahoma City into the "big leagues" of American cities.

City leaders want Oklahoma City voters on Dec. 14 to approve a five- year, penny sales tax increase to fund an estimated $237.6 million in construction during the tax's term.

A 1-cent increase would boost the state and city sales tax in the city to 8.375 percent.

The MAPS plan will be presented on one ballot as an all-or-nothing package. Only Oklahoma City voters will be eligible to cast ballots on the package.

Here is a brief description of the projects to be built with the earmarked money:
Baseball park
A 15,000-seat stadium meeting Triple-A league standards. No location has been set, but the Bricktown entertainment district is the front- runner. $21.8 million.
Myriad arena
A new, 20,000-seat arena separate from the current Myriad Convention Center and its arena. The proposed location, not specified in the tax ballot, is south of the convention center.

City leaders will build the arena to meet National Basketball Association and National Hockey League standards. They hope to land a team from one of those leagues. $79.8 million.

Civic Center Music Hall
The 56-year-old hall would be completely renovated to house major theatrical, dance and musical groups, including the Oklahoma City Philharmonic. $27 million.

Metropolitan learning center
A new downtown library complex that would include an adult learning center for continuing education, auditorium and business information center.

The center would be on the north end of a Galleria complex to be located south of the Oklahoma County Courthouse.

The center would encompass 125,500 square feet and cost $15.9 million.
Myriad Convention Center
Construction and renovation would add 100,000 more square feet to the existing 950,000 gross square feet.

The improvements would add more ballroom, meeting and exhibit space. $24.9 million.
North Canadian River
Three dams would pool water along the river from Martin Luther King Avenue to May Avenue. The tax would fund landscaping, trails, docks, picnic areas and recreation spots in the area.

The city also would build a scenic, shop-lined river canal running north from the river, parallel to and west of Byers Avenue.

The canal would turn west at Reno Avenue and stop near E.K. Gaylord Boulevard and Reno. Conceptual drawings show the canal abutting the proposed Bricktown stadium and Myriad Arena, but the city council could change the locations. Total cost $37.1 million.

State fairgrounds
Proposed improvements include a world-class, horse auction center to increase Oklahoma City's attractiveness for horse industry events. Other tax money would fund improvements to existing facilities to fend off other cities competing for horse events. $11.5 million.
Transportation link
The city council could choose light rail, monorail or another mass transit system to create a link between downtown and the Interstate 40 and Meridian hotel area.

If money is available, the link could be expanded later to the Remington Park area. Any transit system would only be funded if federal funds cover at least 50 percent of the cost, the ballot says. $3 million.
Site acquisition, parking and related construction
This includes buying land, creating parking, paying architectural and engineering fees, removing existing structures, etc. $16.6 million.

There was no vote of the people (refer to back to the statute). There... see? Illegal.

[downtownguy]

The use tax was not part of that ballot and was different from the sales tax. It was created separately by the city council.

[Midtowner]

Even so, the first document I mentioned specifies where money was taken from the MAPS, schools and public safety funds and used for Bass Pro purposes -- around 2 million dollars.

I couldn't find where the original money came from, but the extra money to cover the cost overruns definitely came from those three mentioned funds which were set aside for special purposes pursuant to the above statute.

[Popsy]

Nice research Midtowner, however I do have several questions. First, from what source did you find the numbers showing $11,370,696 came from Maps as I thought I had read that the money came from Federal Community Block Grant Funds, but I will admit that I possibly confused this with the Skirvin project? Secondly, the original Maps proposal you printed and the wording on the ballot were probably different and what was on the ballot would be what is pertinent. Thirdly, a second vote occured to extend maps, so could the lanquage have been different?

Lastly, it appears that maybe I should not be just working by memory and I need to subscribe to OPUBCO's researh feature to help keep us both in line as I am sure that both of us want to be accurace.

[Patrick]

You are accurately detailing restrictions on the sales tax. The city lent out from the use tax, which is a separate fund, separate levy, and not addressed by the law you are citing. I will leave it at this. I don't argue with your criticisms of the Lower Bricktown deal. I just disagree with your approach.

A sales tax authorized in subsection A of this section may be levied for limited purposes specified in the ordinance levying the tax. Such ordinance shall be submitted to the voters for approval as provided in Section 2705 of this title. Any sales tax levied or any change in the rate of a sales tax levied pursuant to the provisions of this section shall become effective on the first day of the calendar quarter following approval by the voters of the city or town unless another effective date, which shall also be on the first day of a calendar quarter, is specified in the ordinance levying the sales tax or changing the rate of sales tax. Such ordinance shall describe with specificity the projects or expenditures for which the limited-purpose tax levy would be made. The municipal governing body shall create a limited-purpose fund and deposit therein any revenue generated by any tax levied pursuant to this subsection. Money in the fund shall be accumulated from year to year. The fund shall be placed in an insured interest-bearing account and the interest which accrues on the fund shall be retained in the fund. The fund shall be nonfiscal and shall not be considered in computing any levy when the municipality makes its estimate to the excise board for needed appropriations. Money in the limited-purpose tax fund shall be expended only as accumulated and only for the purposes specifically described in the taxing ordinance as approved by the voters.

[johnnyboyokc]

you are on the money on the TIF dollars

[johnnyboyokc]

Listen guys i have been taking up for my business Brewer Entertainment....And I have talked to some of you in private however i will come out and say we all are enjoying bricktown.... and the city is thriving...so no matter who is successful you know what who cares...everyone can always do better but for OKC i think we are doing pretty damn good....are you having fun?

[Midtowner]

Nice research Midtowner, however I do have several questions. First, from what source did you find the numbers showing $11,370,696 came from Maps as I thought I had read that the money came from Federal Community Block Grant Funds, but I will admit that I possibly confused this with the Skirvin project? Secondly, the original Maps proposal you printed and the wording on the ballot were probably different and what was on the ballot would be what is pertinent. Thirdly, a second vote occured to extend maps, so could the lanquage have been different?

Lastly, it appears that maybe I should not be just working by memory and I need to subscribe to OPUBCO's researh feature to help keep us both in line as I am sure that both of us want to be accurace.

I lifted that off of an Oklahoma City Council agenda.

[BDP]

everyone can always do better but for OKC i think we are doing pretty damn good

I think the repeated inclusion of that qualifier is what so often holds Oklahoma City back. There are comparable markets who have built much better developments than lower bricktown in recent years at a much lower cost to the public. As long as we only try to be better than the sleepy soulless town we were 10 years ago, that's all we'll ever be. And, in the case of lower bricktown, it hasn't really even brought anything new to the market. So, did it really play any part of making OKC better?

I think it's time we stop looking at ambitious plans as out of our league and stop handing out developments of key property to insiders with no vision. I think the only reason lower bricktown and Hogan repeatedly gets shredded here is so that people won't forget how it happened and who did it. We need to stop just trying to be better than 1990 OKC and begin to be competitive in attractions, lifestyle choice, and quality of life. When we do something, let's try and set the bar higher for ourselves.

are you having fun?

Not in lower bricktown outside of the occasional movie and not at Bass Pro. I can honestly say that if Hogan had actually done anything like The Grove in lower bricktown, even if it was 1/5 the scale, visiting it would be a much more regular activity. As it is now, it's not really even worth it. I like the theater better than most in OKC, but, really, a parking lot is a parking lot, even if it has a canal running through it. They could flood the ditch between Belle Isle Station and Penn Square and achieve the same aesthetic as Hogan and the city did with Lower Bricktown.

[floater]

I think the repeated inclusion of that qualifier is what so often holds Oklahoma City back.

Amen. I cringe when I see that phrase. That is a fat lie. I cannot think of a more toxic attitude for the people that build this city than thinking that it's okay to live in mediocrity. If you think first class, develop first class, then locals will start believing that we are first class.

[ChristianConservative]

Midtowner, I would prefer that you leave the State Fair Board out of this. You and I both know they are not corrupt. Maybe OCURA yes, but not the fair board.

[ChristianConservative]

Listen guys i have been taking up for my business Brewer Entertainment....And I have talked to some of you in private however i will come out and say we all are enjoying bricktown.... and the city is thriving...so no matter who is successful you know what who cares...everyone can always do better but for OKC i think we are doing pretty damn good....are you having fun?

Am I having fun? Well, the shows your company puts on are getting old. Same thing every year. How many times can you set up a stage in your parking lot at Oklahoma Ave. and Sheridan and call it a festival? How many times can you have the same hippie second rate Oklahoma bands play at these festivals? Come on. Come up with something new and different than what your father put on.

[ChristianConservative]

I am suprised to see Midtowner in this thread stating facts again that aren't facts, but then again it seems to be par for the course. Midtowner, you might need to add to your research as to what monies were used for Bass Pro. I am fairly certain the money did not come from MAPS.

Midtowner is wrong, you are correct. The money came from the MAPS USE Tax fund, which is a tax on the goods purchased by contractors constructing the MAPS projects. That money was NOT voted on, and can be used in whatever way the city wishes.

[Popsy]

Reading the constant lambasting of Hogan in this forum by a few vocal assassins and history revisionists gets very tiresome as it seems to be unrelenting. Hogan was the only viable, and I use the word viable loosely to the extreme, developer to step up. Moshe Tal had no viability of any kind in my view. Lower Bricktown is not a developers development. It is a users development. Hogan has merely been trying to recover his investor's money any way he can and that means allowing the users to put up anything they want within the allowed oversight. No one knows what might have happened if Hogan could have proceeded with his original plans before Tal's crybaby lawsuit.

From the time I found OKC Talk until now I have formed the belief Moshe Tal created a cult of followers during his time in the Sun and they now use this forum to extoll the virtues of Talism. I am just glad that Talism didn't have so many converts back in the nineties or we would be talking about the nice cement pond that runs through the weed patch south of Reno if no one besides Hogan and his investors had never ponied up.

Send Talism back to dark ages.