Canal side renovation plan includes parking, restaurant, office

[Midtowner]

Brewer obtained that property from the public. The public trusted him to build it in the best way he could. If this was the best he could do, the public clearly chose poorly.

Moshe Tal had a better plan and much more impressive commitments. We're all in teh right for being critical of Hogan for doing such a piss poor job with lower Bricktown.

[johnnyboyokc]

mr. brewer obtained all his land by private means. He has never been given public land like mr. hogan thank you............get your facts right!!!!!!!!

[Popsy]

I have noticed in my brief time on this forum that when it comes to bricktown and lower bricktown facts tend to be ignored and manufactured facts to suit their purpose are presented by the detractors. I would really like to see a copy of Moshe Tal's plan and his financial information as they are continuously brought up in this forum. The last I heard he didn't have the money to pay the attorney fees granted to the city by the court over his frivolus lawsuit.

[Midtowner]

mr. brewer obtained all his land by private means. He has never been given public land like mr. hogan thank you............get your facts right!!!!!!!!

You're right. I'm wrong. I had him confused with Hogan.

My apologies.

[Midtowner]

I have noticed in my brief time on this forum that when it comes to bricktown and lower bricktown facts tend to be ignored and manufactured facts to suit their purpose are presented by the detractors. I would really like to see a copy of Moshe Tal's plan and his financial information as they are continuously brought up in this forum. The last I heard he didn't have the money to pay the attorney fees granted to the city by the court over his frivolus lawsuit.

Whether he could pay the city's attorney's fees or not is irrelevant to whether or not he had the funds available to build what he had proposed. Developers sometimes have to rely on investors for their startup capital -- that was Tal's plan all along. The problem often cited was that Tal's investors were anonymous (which was a major reason the city said it went with Hogan).

In Hogan's case, his investors weren't anonymous -- they were just nonexistent

[Popsy]

Nonexistent? Are you presenting that as a fact? I remember him naming them, but I can't remember the name, however I believe it was the company that owns Globe Life. I also remember Hogan's company paying over three million dollars for the land in lower bricktown, yet you claim it was given to him. Granted the city reinvested the money it received in the plaza and fountain area, but that was the city's choice.

I have no joy in what Hogan was able to do, but he was able to at least do something after having all of his orignal plans killed by Moshe's lawsuit. From what I remember about Tal all he did was talk. He could not show he had the resources or investors, or even any real renderings of the project he proposed. I heard heresay during that time that the only way he got Cordish interested was to claim that the City would provide millions of dollars to help build the project. Common sense also makes me ask why Cordish would even be interested in OKC unless there was a massive infusion of public funds.

Personally, I am much more disappointed in how upper bricktown turned out than what I am in Lower Bricktown. I blame the city for what happened when they did not lock up the property owners into binding agreements as to the appearance of their properties, their useage and rent controls. Everyone of those buildings should have shops and other business on the canal or street levels and offices or condo's on the top floors were it not for the ridiculous rents that the carpetbaggers are asking.

I have said enough, but I am still curious to know if you or Patrick have anything in the way of proof or real facts to back up your claims about Moshe Tal and the wonderful job he would have done in Lower Bricktown had he been given the chance by the 'good ole boys network'.

[Midtowner]

Allow me to respond later. That does deserve a response, but I want to do it right and provide a little research. Right now time constraints forbid that.

PM me if I don't respond soon. Don't let me forget. Thanks.

As for upper bricktown, if it had been subsidized at near the same level as Hogan's boondoggle, it would have been amazing. Even so, it is an excellent development -- by far the best the state has to offer.

[Popsy]

As part of your research I hope that you can find copies of the "much more impressive commitments" that Tal provided to the city when he made his pitch or were they anonymous also? So far as your opinion goes that Upper Bricktown is the most impressive development in Oklahoma, I would agree that it is the most impressive deveopment in Oklahoma that has a canal associated with it.

[downtownguy]

Midtowner, would you consider taking Tal on as a business partner?

[johnnyboyokc]

First of all no one would take that partnership....Karchmer tolbert and brewer have made upper bricktown by feeding it with property taxes...with no rent checks coming in.....hogan claimed his property for a dollar a foot(which i think is great now because it is another piece to the puzzle) that is what no one understands....lets all make this city successful...who cares if its western memorial bricktown southside it about time we have different districts

[johnnyboyokc]

if you look at the original map of the canal it would of went straight down the parking lot south of zios....however brewer proposed (i know his buildings were on this street) to make it on california...at the time know one would of believed that anyone like sonic would of built on that property (THAT IS WHY HE THOUGHT PEOPLE WOULD BE MORE APT TO DEVELOP WITH the BUILDINGs ALREADY THERE) this whole thing was a risk and it worked with the help of maps and norick....dont you all agree....and spurred other districts like western....and there will be more to come... i would say its not about money its a passion however look at youtube and myspace...it starts out as fun and ends up profitable......who cares its free enterprise (but youtube sold for way too much ha ha)

[Luke]

Does anyone know what the status of this project is?

This project, along with the canal corner project would be a huge boon to Bricktown proper (Upper Bricktown?).

Any news?

[metro]

I think its time for Steve L. to do an update on all the "proposed" projects that haven't yet come to fruition.

[okclee]

Canal side renovation plan includes parking, restaurant, office

By Steve Lackmeyer
The Oklahoman












Two Oklahoma City oilmen are proposing a multimillion-dollar renovation of properties along the Bricktown Canal that would include construction of a two-story parking garage, fountains and addition of offices and housing.

John Shelton and Charles Harding’s project, at 2 E California and 12 E California, was applauded Wednesday by the Bricktown Urban Design Committee. But the committee withheld approval, saying it will need more information and detailed drawings.

“Our development will depend on the approval of the design committee and the city,” Harding said. “We don’t want to go to the expense of doing all this and then finding out it won’t work.”

Harding’s proposal calls for renovation of the second floor and addition of a roof-top terrace at 12 E California. The building’s first floor, overlooking the canal, is home to Zio’s Italian Restaurant and the Laughing Fish gift shop. The four-story building at 2 E California (including a canal level basement) has been boarded up for at least the past decade, but is best known for the water tower on the roof.

Balconies would be added to both buildings. Designs also call for new windows to be added to the west facade of 2 E California, and an expansion of the patio facing the canal. Harding also wants the city to consider adding a fountain in the reflecting pool of the canal west of 2 E California.

Harding said the purchase from owner Jim Brewer also includes air rights over the surface parking lot south of Zio’s. Brewer would retain control of the surface lot, and Harding is proposing a two- to four-story parking garage over the lot that would be connected to the buildings by a skywalk.

Harding said the second floor of the buildings will be converted into offices, and the third floor of 2 E California will be remodeled into housing.

The investment will exceed $10 million, Harding said.

“We will need some cooperation from the city on this,” he said. “This is an underdeveloped area of Bricktown, and we will need to work with the city to make it work.”

Brewer said he recently bought a parking lot east of Zio’s in a separate transaction from Chris Johnson with intention of developing the property into a hotel. Similar development was envisioned by Johnson, but Brewer said the deal wasn’t doable because he couldn’t find a way to provide parking.

Brewer said his deal with Harding and Shelton includes operating the garage, so that ample parking will be available for both nearby restaurants and a future canal side hotel.

Bricktown Association director Frank Sims applauded Harding and Shelton’s plans, adding the property at 2 E California is an eyesore for visitors enjoying boat rides on the canal.

“We’ve been hoping for this kind of development for many years,” Sims said. “It’s long overdue.

“It’s an embarrassment to have buildings along the canal boarded up with broken glass just sitting there. We don’t want to have prime canal frontage being ignored or underutilized. With all the new development along the south half of the canal, we need to see further renovations in the core.”

What is the latest with this project?? Is it still alive??

[johnnyboyokc]

that is a great deal and partnership......sims should have nothing to say about it.........it is a great beneficiary to btown.....

[okclee]

When will we see some progress on this project??

[Popsy]

Hey Midtowner. Re your request on 10/29/06 that you be allowed to respond later when I asked you to bring some credibility to your statements about Moshe Tal. Perhaps you need another ten months to prepare your response. That's OK, as I will continue to wait.

[Midtowner]

I've had a chance to go over a lot of Tal's lawsuits and how he sued basically anyone who came in contact with him including the law firm which represented him. Whether or not something happened here which was underhanded, I think the city is better off without a man like Moshe Tal having anything to do with Oklahoma City's renaissance. Sometimes, even when you're right, you just need to know when to pack up your toys and go home.

As much as Tal has paid in attorneys fees, I can't possibly imagine his suit was in complete bad faith. His lawyers (a very well-respected firm) took the case. If the case truly was a non-starter, I don't think they would have signed on.

At any rate, I'm relatively happy with the way things turned out. Since there's nothing particularly special about any of the Hogan buildings, I have no doubt they'll be replaced with some more formidable structures within the next 20 years or so.

[metro]

Steve, any updates?

[Steve]

Not yet. But the last I heard, this project involved tax credits, and that can cause some delays depending on the complexity of the renovation and financing.

[Luke]

Not yet. But the last I heard, this project involved tax credits, and that can cause some delays depending on the complexity of the renovation and financing.

When the government gets involved, things get much more complicated.

Ron Paul 2008.

[metro]

So is Ron Paul endorsing this slow Bricktown project Luke?

[Turanacus]

Whoever keeps saying that parking in Bricktown needs to be free really needs to get outside of Mustang and observe what other cities are doing. I can't find free parking in Kansas City for crying out loud. Get wit it dogg. Brewer just makin some flow.

[warreng88]

Sorry to bring up an old thread, but does anyone know the latest on this one?

[maestro]

It's pretty obvious the new owners, like the previous owner, doesn't care to maintain their investment nor care what their properties look like. And further, don't care how that apathetic attitude reduces the attraction and the image of the area.

It's a shame that we have a building looking this bad at the "headwaters" of the canal and neither the owners or the City can manage to make anything happen to at least make it look decent.