OG&E Tower

[Rover]

Sue.

[kevinpate]

What happens if the city were to deny the permit to demolish the stage center? What does RW do then?

On what legal basis can the demo permit be denied? A demo permit is not based on how tall or how pretty a replacement structure will be.
Absent a valid reason for denial, the owner will be able to successfully overturn the same.

[Plutonic Panda]

I for one am embarrassed at our low standards. Like I said earlier, we have a mentality here to just accept the minimal standards because it's better than what we had. You all are playing right into what I just stated. All the comments about how it's better than nothing or just sitting empty and we don't have the luxury to wait for a tower, is just pure nonsense. I'm tired of hearing we aren't Austin, or Nashville or other boom towns. Well, keep dreaming small and we never will be. We have a thriving economy and it's best to make hay when their is sunshine. Those other cities make it happen because they don't have our small minded mentality. They don't sit around and throw out excuses why they can't do something, they just make it happen. Yes, we aren't Austin because most of the people around here don't want to be Austin or too scared to step out of their comfort zones and be anything better than OK!

My gosh you all are frustrating. We need towers, an amazing boulevard and park, downtown/bricktown needs to be connected and a part of the core to shore and the new whitewater and river activities. These things need to flow and be symbiotic with each other. We need to be reason companies want to come here, a reason people want to be here, and announce to the world we have arrived. Build a couple more towers, hotels, convention center and several mid rise residential towers and visibly see the difference in this city. Get with the program on a good rail or commuter rail system. Build a couple of structures that become UNIQUE to OKC only that everyone in the world can identify with. Call me crazy but I would love to see the big Oil Derrick built and have tours and it be symbolic of us being an Energy City! Ideas I would love to see here are:

1. Oil Derrick like the one designed a couple years ago
2. Turbine looking building that has wind energy. Doesn't have to be crazy tall, maybe 20-25 stories but all lit up and unique
3. 2 more towers of 28-40 stories
4. 4-6 mid rises in the for of hotels, office, and residential of 16-25 stories
5. Personally, I'd love to see a Hard Rock hotel and casino like the one in Tulsa but more grand and lit up with spot lights, etc.
6. The big Ferris Wheel
7. World class park, boulevard, and core to shore
8. Rail system in the city to core, Edmond to Norman, and NW, and Airport
9. A MAJOR attraction to make us a destination. Maybe a big theme park, etc. We need to be a destination and people come here to visit. Opens up our airport for more flights and gates.

Finally, it has been said over and over that OKC will never land a hub at WR. With that said, why could we not get a head of everyone in the county and build and become the MAIN hub for a high speed rail connecting all over the country? OKC is a great fit geographically and we could become a boom town on steroids if that were to ever come about. Not to mention how much that would help our airport. Could you imagine the exposure and publicity our city would get if this came to fruition? Yes, I dream big but if you don't have them and only think small, that is all you will ever be. Dream big OKC and make things happen. Let your voices be heard and demand things get done. Let the right people know and share your dreams. Talk to Pete, Steve, and city leaders, let's become great!!!

Great post man!

[Paseofreak]

Ummm, no. Hot air generator with an empty wallet.

[bchris02]

I for one am embarrassed at our low standards. Like I said earlier, we have a mentality here to just accept the minimal standards because it's better than what we had. You all are playing right into what I just stated. All the comments about how it's better than nothing or just sitting empty and we don't have the luxury to wait for a tower, is just pure nonsense. I'm tired of hearing we aren't Austin, or Nashville or other boom towns. Well, keep dreaming small and we never will be. We have a thriving economy and it's best to make hay when their is sunshine. Those other cities make it happen because they don't have our small minded mentality. They don't sit around and throw out excuses why they can't do something, they just make it happen. Yes, we aren't Austin because most of the people around here don't want to be Austin or too scared to step out of their comfort zones and be anything better than OK!

My gosh you all are frustrating. We need towers, an amazing boulevard and park, downtown/bricktown needs to be connected and a part of the core to shore and the new whitewater and river activities. These things need to flow and be symbiotic with each other. We need to be reason companies want to come here, a reason people want to be here, and announce to the world we have arrived. Build a couple more towers, hotels, convention center and several mid rise residential towers and visibly see the difference in this city. Get with the program on a good rail or commuter rail system. Build a couple of structures that become UNIQUE to OKC only that everyone in the world can identify with. Call me crazy but I would love to see the big Oil Derrick built and have tours and it be symbolic of us being an Energy City! Ideas I would love to see here are:

1. Oil Derrick like the one designed a couple years ago
2. Turbine looking building that has wind energy. Doesn't have to be crazy tall, maybe 20-25 stories but all lit up and unique
3. 2 more towers of 28-40 stories
4. 4-6 mid rises in the for of hotels, office, and residential of 16-25 stories
5. Personally, I'd love to see a Hard Rock hotel and casino like the one in Tulsa but more grand and lit up with spot lights, etc.
6. The big Ferris Wheel
7. World class park, boulevard, and core to shore
8. Rail system in the city to core, Edmond to Norman, and NW, and Airport
9. A MAJOR attraction to make us a destination. Maybe a big theme park, etc. We need to be a destination and people come here to visit. Opens up our airport for more flights and gates.

Finally, it has been said over and over that OKC will never land a hub at WR. With that said, why could we not get a head of everyone in the county and build and become the MAIN hub for a high speed rail connecting all over the country? OKC is a great fit geographically and we could become a boom town on steroids if that were to ever come about. Not to mention how much that would help our airport. Could you imagine the exposure and publicity our city would get if this came to fruition? Yes, I dream big but if you don't have them and only think small, that is all you will ever be. Dream big OKC and make things happen. Let your voices be heard and demand things get done. Let the right people know and share your dreams. Talk to Pete, Steve, and city leaders, let's become great!!!

I think you are spot on. I would like to see all these things in OKC and I think too many times this city settles for the absolute bare minimum. You see it in Lower Bricktown, Belle Isle, and possibly the Convention Center as people here seem to think the Cox is good enough.

I will disagree on one thing. I don't think by dreaming big the city can really force height. If Rainey Williams thought the market could support a taller tower he would probably be building one. If done right, this Stage Center Tower can do for the streetscape on the west side of downtown what Devon did for the skyline. Unfortunately it will have very little effect on the skyline and that is very disappointing. I don't think necessarily that the project should be blocked because there is no guarantee or even likelihood of another developer building a 40 story building on the Stage Center Site. If OKC denied this project, the Stage Center would likely remain rotting for the foreseeable future, or even worse five years down the line it gets bought up and an even more lackluster building gets built. The city should do whatever it can to persuade Mr. Williams to build a building that will set a new standard in this city for street-level urbanism.

[mblues]

There is one factor that is consistently overlooked concerning the Stage Center, but one that I feel is critical to the argument that we should save the Stage Center. That fact is this; the "City" has tried for years to find a viable developer or arts group that has the $ resources $ to purchase and renovate the Center without ANY positive results. How long can we hold out in hopes that an alternate "viable" solution is found?

With that in mind the options start dwindling, and now we are left trying to push for the best replacement project possible. So, I do agree we should let the SC go while still pushing for the best project possible...I hope this makes sense without inflaming the passionate emotions.

[Prunepicker]

The Stage Center Tower makes more sense than what's there right now.

The current occupant is a waste of space. As I said in another thread, take
some photos, tear it down and put something useful in it's place. Like a
parking lot or a storm drain.

Stage Center was, is and will be a totally useless waste of downtown OKC.
Get rid of that monstrosity.

[Prunepicker]

There is one factor that is consistently overlooked concerning the Stage Center,
but one that I feel is critical to the argument that we should save the Stage
Center. That fact is this; the "City" has tried for years to find a viable developer
or arts group that has the $ resources $ to purchase and renovate the Center
without ANY positive results.

You have just given us the best reason for tearing that monstrosity down and
putting something useful in it's place. Something like a parking lot or a
storm drain.

Thank you for your input. It certainly makes the decision to rid OKC of that
eye sore and total waste of space much easier.

[OKCisOK4me]

I don't want to quote that monstrosity of a post SoonDoc but to answer your question, a lot of people here like how Oklahoma City is as the City That Never Was. I LOVE the progress and strides that OKC has made since 93. Some people I know would rather it stay quiet around here. I, personally, want our highways to be so back logged that we have a reason to implement commuter rail. I want so much downtown residential so that downtown won't be empty on nights that no events are happening and if we all had it your way, there'd be events happening 7 nights a week in downtown on a scale we currently can not fathom.

The problem of course is that we don't have special interest groups in our pockets that, I swear, seem to want to hold the city back. Keep it on a leash...

What OKC needs is new money and new residents from other cities from other states with outside influences to make OKC grand but that's going to be a tough wall to bust through. The revolutionists were the forefathers of MAPS, the pioneers are today.

[Spartan]

I for one am embarrassed at our low standards. Like I said earlier, we have a mentality here to just accept the minimal standards because it's better than what we had. You all are playing right into what I just stated. All the comments about how it's better than nothing or just sitting empty and we don't have the luxury to wait for a tower, is just pure nonsense. I'm tired of hearing we aren't Austin, or Nashville or other boom towns. Well, keep dreaming small and we never will be. We have a thriving economy and it's best to make hay when their is sunshine. Those other cities make it happen because they don't have our small minded mentality. They don't sit around and throw out excuses why they can't do something, they just make it happen. Yes, we aren't Austin because most of the people around here don't want to be Austin or too scared to step out of their comfort zones and be anything better than OK!

My gosh you all are frustrating. We need towers, an amazing boulevard and park, downtown/bricktown needs to be connected and a part of the core to shore and the new whitewater and river activities. These things need to flow and be symbiotic with each other. We need to be reason companies want to come here, a reason people want to be here, and announce to the world we have arrived. Build a couple more towers, hotels, convention center and several mid rise residential towers and visibly see the difference in this city. Get with the program on a good rail or commuter rail system. Build a couple of structures that become UNIQUE to OKC only that everyone in the world can identify with. Call me crazy but I would love to see the big Oil Derrick built and have tours and it be symbolic of us being an Energy City! Ideas I would love to see here are:

1. Oil Derrick like the one designed a couple years ago
2. Turbine looking building that has wind energy. Doesn't have to be crazy tall, maybe 20-25 stories but all lit up and unique
3. 2 more towers of 28-40 stories
4. 4-6 mid rises in the for of hotels, office, and residential of 16-25 stories
5. Personally, I'd love to see a Hard Rock hotel and casino like the one in Tulsa but more grand and lit up with spot lights, etc.
6. The big Ferris Wheel
7. World class park, boulevard, and core to shore
8. Rail system in the city to core, Edmond to Norman, and NW, and Airport
9. A MAJOR attraction to make us a destination. Maybe a big theme park, etc. We need to be a destination and people come here to visit. Opens up our airport for more flights and gates.

Finally, it has been said over and over that OKC will never land a hub at WR. With that said, why could we not get a head of everyone in the county and build and become the MAIN hub for a high speed rail connecting all over the country? OKC is a great fit geographically and we could become a boom town on steroids if that were to ever come about. Not to mention how much that would help our airport. Could you imagine the exposure and publicity our city would get if this came to fruition? Yes, I dream big but if you don't have them and only think small, that is all you will ever be. Dream big OKC and make things happen. Let your voices be heard and demand things get done. Let the right people know and share your dreams. Talk to Pete, Steve, and city leaders, let's become great!!!

It's a combination of dreaming big and dreaming realistically that makes a world class city come to fruition. Furthermore, heights isn't a matter of low standards. It's a matter of what we value and want to hold to a high standard. What does it say about us if all we care about is height? Reflexively, what does it say about European cities that routinely value urban design far more than height (learned that while doing design studios on study abroad) and continue to build far greater, grander urban environments than we do over here. One of my favorite urban cities in the world is Utrecht, NL which has a core of modern office skyscrapers outside the center city but in the center city, one of the world's greatest urban environments, the tallest tower is a cool old church tower called Dom Tower which enjoys preserved sight lines throughout the city.

Having high standards shouldn't be confused with building tall skyscrapers. Look at the glass and concrete travesty that is Downtown Dallas and compare that to more vibrant, active urban places on the periphery of DTD.

Take this great, inspirational quote:
“In the Great Recession, architects, contractors and developers are hurting. It’s time to get creative. It’s time to think small and doable. It’s time to stretch, professionally, outside one’s comfort zone. It’s time to build community, not towers.” ~ Jim McPherson in “Adapt a Building” in Phoenix Magazine

Adapt-A-Building - Phoenix Magazine


Other than that, I agree with all of your goals and dreams except for attaching height requirements to buildings we need. When you build towers you actually cover less street frontage because so much of the building masses have to be dead space for parking vehicles, then there's the plazas in front of everyone tower, and so on. Not only are 3-9 story buildings a more manageable, human-scale, but it's just a better, more impressive built environment. I promise. Would I rather have another Devon at the expense of all of those Bricktown/Deep Deuce blocks we filled with good, quality human-scale density? The choice is clear for me. I love, love, love seeing our beautiful skyline garnished with human-scale urban neighborhoods.

Austin is cool. Their high-rise blitz is cool. Portland is cooler. Their transit and new urbanist development principles are way ahead of Austin, which has the resources (UT > PSU, + state capital) to be a greater city than Portland. But it isn't.

This is what I'm talking about, why we have every right to be so proud of what we've accomplished in transforming OKC's built environment:


To me, the most exciting aspect of our skyline isn't the tallest tower but rather the stunning urban neighborhoods surrounding it. That's what a real city aspires to be.

[OKVision4U]

I for one am embarrassed at our low standards. Like I said earlier, we have a mentality here to just accept the minimal standards because it's better than what we had. You all are playing right into what I just stated. All the comments about how it's better than nothing or just sitting empty and we don't have the luxury to wait for a tower, is just pure nonsense. I'm tired of hearing we aren't Austin, or Nashville or other boom towns. Well, keep dreaming small and we never will be. We have a thriving economy and it's best to make hay when their is sunshine. Those other cities make it happen because they don't have our small minded mentality. They don't sit around and throw out excuses why they can't do something, they just make it happen. Yes, we aren't Austin because most of the people around here don't want to be Austin or too scared to step out of their comfort zones and be anything better than OK!

My gosh you all are frustrating. We need towers, an amazing boulevard and park, downtown/bricktown needs to be connected and a part of the core to shore and the new whitewater and river activities. These things need to flow and be symbiotic with each other. We need to be reason companies want to come here, a reason people want to be here, and announce to the world we have arrived. Build a couple more towers, hotels, convention center and several mid rise residential towers and visibly see the difference in this city. Get with the program on a good rail or commuter rail system. Build a couple of structures that become UNIQUE to OKC only that everyone in the world can identify with. Call me crazy but I would love to see the big Oil Derrick built and have tours and it be symbolic of us being an Energy City! Ideas I would love to see here are:

1. Oil Derrick like the one designed a couple years ago
2. Turbine looking building that has wind energy. Doesn't have to be crazy tall, maybe 20-25 stories but all lit up and unique
3. 2 more towers of 28-40 stories
4. 4-6 mid rises in the for of hotels, office, and residential of 16-25 stories
5. Personally, I'd love to see a Hard Rock hotel and casino like the one in Tulsa but more grand and lit up with spot lights, etc.
6. The big Ferris Wheel
7. World class park, boulevard, and core to shore
8. Rail system in the city to core, Edmond to Norman, and NW, and Airport
9. A MAJOR attraction to make us a destination. Maybe a big theme park, etc. We need to be a destination and people come here to visit. Opens up our airport for more flights and gates.

Finally, it has been said over and over that OKC will never land a hub at WR. With that said, why could we not get a head of everyone in the county and build and become the MAIN hub for a high speed rail connecting all over the country? OKC is a great fit geographically and we could become a boom town on steroids if that were to ever come about. Not to mention how much that would help our airport. Could you imagine the exposure and publicity our city would get if this came to fruition? Yes, I dream big but if you don't have them and only think small, that is all you will ever be. Dream big OKC and make things happen. Let your voices be heard and demand things get done. Let the right people know and share your dreams. Talk to Pete, Steve, and city leaders, let's become great!!!

Spot-On. I think many of us share the same ( Let's do this thing Big ) attitude now. When this snowball effect begins , it will be great. Energy Tower, 1000 ft.

I don't know if Raney W. has enough financing to build what his desires are or is he bulding what his comittments are equal to? ...I don't know, but if he is needing $$$, then our local commercial lending groups should (Step Up too) and help build what this site "should be". 16 stories vs. 40 stories, is not a gamble. The market is screaming for it.

[Rover]

For all these people screaming for 40 floors who swear OKC is "screaming" for the space, I wonder what market information they have regarding demand for space at the price that it would command. Is this based on knowledge or just emotion? Fact or hope? It is easy to say they should risk another $200 million or $300 million when it isn't your money. It is quite different getting the loan for it.

Let's just make him build something world class at the street and forget about that extra 10-15 floors on top.

[Spartan]

For all these people screaming for 40 floors who swear OKC is "screaming" for the space, I wonder what market information they have regarding demand for space at the price that it would command. Is this based on knowledge or just emotion? Fact or hope? It is easy to say they should risk another $200 million or $300 million when it isn't your money. It is quite different getting the loan for it.

Let's just make him build something world class at the street and forget about that extra 10-15 floors on top.

Just in the interest of strengthening your argument, because you have worded it very saliently with the underlined text, I don't think anyone is saying that OKC doesn't need more Class A space. Not to mince words, but the market is sort of screaming for it, albeit no more than it is screaming for more well-planned residential units, and restaurants, and retail, etc. The emphasis there being on well-planned, which goes back to your argument. If you build it they won't always come. You still have to get your ducks in a row, and with financing, that's by far the hardest piece. I say that as an urban design and public policy guy who doesn't always work with development financing, so I know how hard the other pieces are.

[bchris02]

It's a combination of dreaming big and dreaming realistically that makes a world class city come to fruition. Furthermore, heights isn't a matter of low standards. It's a matter of what we value and want to hold to a high standard. What does it say about us if all we care about is height? Reflexively, what does it say about European cities that routinely value urban design far more than height (learned that while doing design studios on study abroad) and continue to build far greater, grander urban environments than we do over here. One of my favorite urban cities in the world is Utrecht, NL which has a core of modern office skyscrapers outside the center city but in the center city, one of the world's greatest urban environments, the tallest tower is a cool old church tower called Dom Tower which enjoys preserved sight lines throughout the city.

Having high standards shouldn't be confused with building tall skyscrapers. Look at the glass and concrete travesty that is Downtown Dallas and compare that to more vibrant, active urban places on the periphery of DTD.

Tall skyscrapers isn't everything but it does contribute to urban feel. And downtown Dallas is NOT a travesty. OKC comes nowhere close when it comes to street-level restaurants/retail, beautification, and place making in the CBD. Could DT Dallas be improved? Yes. Is it a perfect downtown? No, but OKC has plenty it could learn from the built environment in Dallas even today.

I agree though with dream big and realistically. Streetscape and placemaking is extremely important and that is where we should hold Rainey Williams to his word. We can't underestimate the impact tall buildings have though.

[ethansisson]

We can't underestimate the impact tall buildings have though.

But can you quantify it? I'm having a hard time understanding why it's important enough to try to kill a mid-rise project.

[bchris02]

But can you quantify it? I'm having a hard time understanding why it's important enough to try to kill a mid-rise project.

It's not. I do not advocate killing this mid-rise tower and think efforts should be focused on making it "world class" at street level. I am simply stating that height is very important, especially in younger cities like this one.

[Spartan]

Tall skyscrapers isn't everything but it does contribute to urban feel. And downtown Dallas is NOT a travesty. OKC comes nowhere close when it comes to street-level restaurants/retail, beautification, and place making in the CBD. Could DT Dallas be improved? Yes. Is it a perfect downtown? No, but OKC has plenty it could learn from the built environment in Dallas even today.

I agree though with dream big and realistically. Streetscape and placemaking is extremely important and that is where we should hold Rainey Williams to his word. We can't underestimate the impact tall buildings have though.

No.... downtown Dallas really is a travesty.

[ethansisson]

It's not. I do not advocate killing this mid-rise tower and think efforts should be focused on making it "world class" at street level. I am simply stating that height is very important, especially in younger cities like this one.

Right. I didn't mean to imply that you personally advocate killing it, but that some seem to think that a 16-story tower is too short for downtown and want to find another place in the city for this project.

I'm more interested in hearing about why you (and others) think height is important. I don't necessarily disagree. I have a general idea, but I feel like I'm missing something given how extreme some of the opposition is.

[Rover]

Downtown Dallas is NOT something to aspire to. Bigger isn't better.

[bchris02]

No.... downtown Dallas really is a travesty.

OKC:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=oklah...59.59,,0,-4.64

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=oklah...,283.81,,0,2.4

Cleveland:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=cleve...56.68,,0,-6.61

Los Angeles:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Los+A...34.96,,0,-3.61

Charlotte:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Charl...43.93,,0,-5.75

The point is that you can find ugly surface parking in almost any major city's downtown, but that doesn't mean their entire downtown is a travesty. Downtown Dallas is nice and there is much OKC could learn from it. For instance, OKC could use far more ground level restaurants downtown. It could also use more lighting downtown as well as ornamental objects. These things help with placemaking.

[bchris02]

Right. I didn't mean to imply that you personally advocate killing it, but that some seem to think that a 16-story tower is too short for downtown and want to find another place in the city for this project.

I'm more interested in hearing about why you (and others) think height is important. I don't necessarily disagree. I have a general idea, but I feel like I'm missing something given how extreme some of the opposition is.

Height gives the impression of a growing and prospering city. A city's skyline is a huge part of that city's image. Also, being in an urban canyon/crater creates a unique atmosphere. Imagine the Myriad Gardens at night, surrounding by well-lit, stylish skyscrapers on all four sides. That doesn't mean street interaction isn't important - it is, but a building can have BOTH. OKC in particular has a skyline that looks very peculiar to those who aren't used to seeing it, simply because the Devon tower dwarfs everything else. Just ONE more 30-40 story building would go a long ways to help out on that.

A lot of urbanists throw out they idea that European cities don't have skyscrapers yet they are amazing urban environments. That is completely true. However, OKC isn't a European city and never will be. OKC will never have cobblestone streets, barely wide enough to fit a horse carriage through, creating a canyon through 500+ year old low-rise buildings. That is Paris, it is NOT OKC.

[Just the facts]

Why can't OKC be more like Paris? Everything in Paris is man-made. Are you saying French planners and engineers are better that American planners and engineers? If so, I might be inclined to agree with you.

[bluedogok]

For all these people screaming for 40 floors who swear OKC is "screaming" for the space, I wonder what market information they have regarding demand for space at the price that it would command. Is this based on knowledge or just emotion? Fact or hope? It is easy to say they should risk another $200 million or $300 million when it isn't your money. It is quite different getting the loan for it.

Let's just make him build something world class at the street and forget about that extra 10-15 floors on top.

I will say that sometimes taking a chance and building something on spec can work out and accelerate other development. The Frost Tower in Austin was a spec tower, after it filled up as quickly as it did Cousins Properties said they wish they would have built 10 or more so floors. The difference is they had a few key tenants, not a major anchor like OG+E who was going to take most of the tower. The other side is this might help show demand downtown for more and may push some developers to build taller spec buildings. Just like in Austin it is more than likely going to be out-of-town developers who push the height on both commercial and residential towers. I see where some who want more floors are coming from, it would be nice if they did something taller but I also understand why they wouldn't.

No.... downtown Dallas really is a travesty.

My office was a block away from that lot, catty-corner to One Dallas Center which is the building on the right edge of the pic. At one time back then (1991-93) Texas Architect magazine had an article on the destruction of Downtown Dallas during the 80's, the article stated that almost 40% of the land in the Dallas CBD was surface parking lots.

The point is that you can find ugly surface parking in almost any major city's downtown, but that doesn't mean their entire downtown is a travesty. Downtown Dallas is nice and there is much OKC could learn from it. For instance, OKC could use far more ground level restaurants downtown. It could also use more lighting downtown as well as ornamental objects. These things help with placemaking.

The point you made with the link is there are plenty of other land opportunities for tall buildings in Downtown OKC. I will say that Downtown Dallas was bad when I was working there but a lot has changed in twenty years.

[bchris02]

Why can't OKC be more like Paris? Everything in Paris is man-made. Are you saying French planners and engineers are better that American planners and engineers? If so, I might be inclined to agree with you.

Paris developed the way it did over centuries, most of which was prior to the invention of the automobile or the ability to build skyscrapers.

[Spartan]

Portland. Savannah. Charleston. DC. The whole state of Virginia. Any College Town, USA. We have tons of great human scale places.

America isnt fundamentally different. We are just as good and capable of blossoming as a culture and society.