OG&E Tower

[OkieNate]

Dude are you serious? You're losing some major credibility here, I've not seen anything from Steve that would be considered "trolling". He seems to be taking the position that a lot of us are that some of the comments here are ridiculous given what we know right now (and the fact that this project is far from as awful as some are acting like it is). That last post you reference is some perspective based on past experience.

I don't think he should be able to tear down the Stage Center without a concrete plan, but I can honestly say that I don't really care one way or the other. He isn't going to knock it down only to build a parking garage.

And everybody here wants what is best for the city, no one more than Steve...likely he knows more than you do about this project and thinks whatever is coming is going to be best or at least a major improvment for OKC

Comparing anyone to Thunder is trolling (I've been a very frequent reader/follower of this site and have only recently started to comment, like since before Devon broke ground reader/follower, so I know how ridiculous Thunder was.) NO ONE on here has said this is an awful development, or that it has no place in OKC and should be scrapped. The argument is location. Steve is a normal person with a lot of credibility and connections and when he goes off the deep end he should be called out on it, because along with Pete, their opinions and information carry the most weight.

I KNOW he knows tons more than me, that is why (IMO)his trolling is uncalled for.

Im also aware that Rainey probably knows what kind of real estate dominoes are about to fall around his development. How does caution and skepticism automatically lead to, "I hate this". Lots of people werent for the then Ford Center, and I'd say that worked out pretty well. Time will be the judge but without caution and skepticism from the outside we end up with lower bricktown.

[OKCRT]

I just read through the last page or so...... my first vision was about 4 or 5 guys jumping up and down throwing a tantrum screaming they want a 60 story building.

What gets built will be a building that is feasable and justified. Rainey Williams will not build some monstrosity that will not make sound economic sense.

Welcome to the real world. Some of you guys need to go back and play Sim City.

I am jumping up and down right now screaming profanities at Rainey at the top of my lungs for proposing a short little building like this on a prime piece of property next to a world class Devon Tower. Well not really but.....

If he gets by with this it will be much worse than anything Hogan or anyone else did. This will be something the city will have to live with for the foreseeable future. There are no do overs once this is built. It's like building a multi million dollar mansion and then someone comes pulling up in an old trailer and setting up across the street.

[Steve]

I was not comparing anyone to Thunder. I was pointing out that this was not the first time we've seen some heavily emotional response involving disappointment with the height of a building.

[shawnw]

There are no do overs once this is built.

Meanwhile, back in time, someone is looking at the site plan for Stage Center, saying there are no do-overs once this is built. :-)

[OKCRT]

And this isn't about saving the Stage Center. That junk should have been bulldozed years ago. This is about LOCATION. Plenty of areas around OKC where a 14 story building would fit nicely. This location is just too good for Rainey's project. Let a real developer take charge and build a real skyscraper that this city needs.

[OkieNate]

I am not sticking up for Williams. I am questioning the mob sense of entitlement for a higher tower (promised a skyscraper?). This is a typical response for when I challenge the majority on this site - it's happened before with transit. You don't like it, so then the accusations start of personal relationships, bias, etc.
As for BOK - Pete tells you Williams made minimal aesthetic changes, what I saw differs from Pete's conclusion. I've been in the building quite a bit over the years and saw how run down it was prior to Williams' improvements.
The high expectations were set, ultimately, by participants on this site.

How can you claim this when he (Rainey Williams) was quoted as saying it will be "world class"?!

He presented a concept, and I'll stand by my claim its audacious to bring a concept to the DDRC to demolish an OKC landmark (love it hate it indifferent.)

and I apologies for the assumption you and RW had a relationship and the accusation of you trolling me. I really do enjoy and respect your opinion and information.

[Rover]

Everyone keeps saying how valuable this site is yet it didn't sell for all that much. What someone is willing to pay for it IS the current value. That is different than what it MAY be worth some day. However future value is not assured and is only increased if the value around it increases as well. I know it is frustrating to many dreamers on here, but economics is economics.

[OKCRT]

I really hope he gets denied. His proposal is just not worth it.

[Bellaboo]

As I understand it Enable/Enogex will still share the space in Leadership Square. Please correct me/fill me in if not true. Pete also mentioned OG&E will keep their old building and bring the scattered OG&E employees into the new digs. Again if this is off please correct me. And according to Steve the 40 story tower is still in the works (Bank of America site).

And your last comment is something that just bugs the crap out of me, and its not just you so this is not a personal attack whatsoever, but better does not equal best, and for this site we need best.

Well, I highly doubt whatever is built will match Devon, the standard may be higher than can possibly be met in the most general sense. But if you look at the other buildings in the core, whatever built on the SC site should greatly supercede what was built pre Leadership Square.

I'm just a realist here, not trying to be negative Nancy.

[adaniel]

If he gets by with this it will be much worse than anything Hogan or anyone else did. This will be something the city will have to live with for the foreseeable future. There are no do overs once this is built. It's like building a multi million dollar mansion and then someone comes pulling up in an old trailer and setting up across the street.

This right here shows just how completely out of control this thread has become. You are really comparing building a $100 million development that will keep a major HQ in downtown to a trailer? Completely outrageous statement. It is quite obvious some people cannot handle certain information.

[OKCRT]

Everyone keeps saying how valuable this site is yet it didn't sell for all that much. What someone is willing to pay for it IS the current value. That is different than what it MAY be worth some day. However future value is not assured and is only increased if the value around it increases as well. I know it is frustrating to many dreamers on here, but economics is economics.

It was a hot property once Devon built. From what I understand there were several final bids on the property.

[Pete]

Everyone keeps saying how valuable this site is yet it didn't sell for all that much. What someone is willing to pay for it IS the current value. That is different than what it MAY be worth some day. However future value is not assured and is only increased if the value around it increases as well. I know it is frustrating to many dreamers on here, but economics is economics.

It wasn't exactly on the open market -- they chose a developer based on lots of things, not just the highest bid.

He only paid $1.35 million per acre for just over 3 acres.

I guarantee you this property is worth way more that than. Many less well-located properties have sold for more in OKC recently.


Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the purchase price was purposely kept reasonable so as to not completely mess up the City's acquisition of the convention center properties and Santa Fe Station.


Let's put it this way... If I had the money and the relationships to buy this property for $4.275 million, I would do it in a heartbeat and could probably double my money almost immediately.

[Plutonic Panda]

I am not sticking up for Williams. I am questioning the mob sense of entitlement for a higher tower (promised a skyscraper?). This is a typical response for when I challenge the majority on this site - it's happened before with transit. You don't like it, so then the accusations start of personal relationships, bias, etc.
As for BOK - Pete tells you Williams made minimal aesthetic changes, what I saw differs from Pete's conclusion. I've been in the building quite a bit over the years and saw how run down it was prior to Williams' improvements.
The high expectations were set, ultimately, by participants on this site.

Steve, if you're referring to me, I just like height. I want good street interaction, but height means a lot to me. It is something that defines the city and gives outsiders a perspective of how the city is overall. That is not the case every time, but more so than not.

To be honest, I really thought it would be over 25 stories, but it appears it won't. As I've stated time and time again, I think Rainy Williams is a great guy from everything I've read about him, I just wish we could have a taller building. Nobody owes me anything or should build a 400,000,000 dollar building to suite my preferences; I would just like to see a taller building, that is all.

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

How can you claim this when he (Rainey Williams) was quoted as saying it will be "world class"?!

What did you expect him to say?

He can't walk out there and say "I am milquetoast, and I'm going to build a tan building with no windows. But hey! It's going to be 37 feet tall! PEACE!" then drop the mic and walk off.

[Steve]

I want to stick with this question of "world class" - which is something Rainey Williams did promise. So, are we tying "world class" to height? Because if that's so, look down the street and tell me how height makes the 31-story Oklahoma Tower (now there's a mediocre design if I've ever saw one) better than the 22-story Leadership Square.
World class - well heck, that phrase is applied throughout the architecture community internationally to Stage Center.
I'm asking everyone again - do we really know what this development will look like? We know how it will be conceptually modeled and the site plan. But the exterior architectural finish IS NOT shown in the renderings provided so far. So how does anyone know whether it will be world class, unless the definition is set at height as what I'm sensing from many in this thread.
I keep asking, and I'll keep asking ... is DDRC being given enough information about this project to allow for demolition to continue?

[Bellaboo]

Bellaboo- aren't you just a big bundle of joy and such a positive person! You sir are exactly what is wrong with this city for far too many years. You are a negative nanny that just can't appreciate the fact that many of us want more for this city. OKC is really making great strides but could be so much more with the right decisions. You need to really quite being so negative because living that way just can't be healthy. Maybe you were the kid that was content on just being on the team rather than out playing, or maybe you got mad at the starters for excelling while you were on the outside looking in. Live and dream a little man, be positive and demand the best of our city even if you don't see it in yourself.

Negative nanny ? LOL Look my friend, I'm more than likely old enough to be your grandpa, and I was a player in my day... how about you ?

What you need to do is stop the cheer leading and make it happen. Let's just see how big an 'ol boy you really are. This message board is great for ideas and opinions, but in the real world, it's not dreamland.

You have to be driven to make things happen. I think Rainey is that......but he admitted he's never built a tower from the ground up, but I give him credit for giving it a shot. Hopefully it'll turn out better than most expect. I think the DDRC is the key to what really happens.

That last line, if you knew me you wouldn't say this.....but you don't.

[Plutonic Panda]

Negative nanny ? LOL Look my friend, I'm more than likely old enough to be your grandpa, and I was a player in my day... how about you ?

What you need to do is stop the cheer leading and make it happen. Let's just see how big an 'ol boy you really are. This message board is great for ideas and opinions, but in the real world, it's not dreamland.

You have to be driven to make things happen. I think Rainey is that......but he admitted he's never built a tower from the ground up, but I give him credit for giving it a shot. Hopefully it'll turn out better than most expect. I think the DDRC is the key to what really happens.

Very reasonable and fair post!

[Steve]

Steve, if you're referring to me, I just like height. I want good street interaction, but height means a lot to me. It is something that defines the city and gives outsiders a perspective of how the city is overall. That is not the case every time, but more so than not.

To be honest, I really thought it would be over 25 stories, but it appears it won't. As I've stated time and time again, I think Rainy Williams is a great guy from everything I've read about him, I just wish we could have a taller building. Nobody owes me anything or should build a 400,000,000 dollar building to suite my preferences; I would just like to see a taller building, that is all.

I'm not trying to belittle anyone for being disappointed with height and I apologize if that is the impression given. But when the discussion gets to be all about height ... that's what I'm questioning and challenging. Design, design, design, design ...

[Pete]

But height is part of design.

It's not the only thing, but it is important -- most important to most people, in fact.

So, when you take that away then there is going to be more scrutiny on everything else. And since the "everything else" is just some block-y concept showing almost zero public space, then you are going to get howls and I think, rightfully so.

[bchris02]

Steve, if you're referring to me, I just like height. I want good street interaction, but height means a lot to me. It is something that defines the city and gives outsiders a perspective of how the city is overall. That is not the case every time, but more so than not.

To be honest, I really thought it would be over 25 stories, but it appears it won't. As I've stated time and time again, I think Rainy Williams is a great guy from everything I've read about him, I just wish we could have a taller building. Nobody owes me anything or should build a 400,000,000 dollar building to suite my preferences; I would just like to see a taller building, that is all.

I agree. Height and street interaction are both important. At this point in OKC's downtown skyline growth, we need another building or two that surpasses the Chase Tower in height in order to balance out the skyline. The OKC skyline currently looks terrible from certain angles due to the fact the Devon tower is such a monster compared to everything else. Another tower or two will go a long ways in telling America than the new and improved OKC has arrived. It's not just about image either, it's also about building a CBD that feels more urban and more vibrant. Many on this site say skyline isn't as important as street interaction. That is partially true, but skyline is VERY important when it comes to national image and city pride and OKC, though has improved on that front, still has a long ways to go. Also, can anybody name a city that has a great skyline but an otherwise poor downtown? I can't think of any except for possibly Tulsa. Towers add to urban feel and are excellent for placemaking just as much as good street interaction does from my experience.

All of that said, what we have proposed here is a mid-rise so we are going to have to live with that. Economics, not wishes, determines what is built and isn't. If the market can't support a 40-story tower, then one won't be built. This tower has turned out to be far shorter in height than anybody would have predicted, even Pete and Steve, and shorter than Mr. Williams himself originally claimed, but I think this project can still add to the city and in no way should it be compared to a trailer as of yet. If Rainey gets the Stage Center demolished and then scales it down even farther, then everyone will have the right to be angry.

Plus, there is still a possible second Mystery Tower that my be announced and blow everyone's socks off while we are arguing about this. I'm not getting my hopes up, but it is a possibility.

[OkieNate]

I want to stick with this question of "world class" - which is something Rainey Williams did promise. So, are we tying "world class" to height? Because if that's so, look down the street and tell me how height makes the 31-story Oklahoma Tower (now there's a mediocre design if I've ever saw one) better than the 22-story Leadership Square.
World class - well heck, that phrase is applied throughout the architecture community internationally to Stage Center.
I'm asking everyone again - do we really know what this development will look like? We know how it will be conceptually modeled and the site plan. But the exterior architectural finish IS NOT shown in the renderings provided so far. So how does anyone know whether it will be world class, unless the definition is set at height as what I'm sensing from many in this thread.
I keep asking, and I'll keep asking ... is DDRC being given enough information about this project to allow for demolition to continue?

No, the DDRC has absolutely not been given enough to allow for demolition. Also height does not necessarily go hand in hand with "world class" (example Sydney Opera house 213" tall, world class all the way). But then again it does (burj khalifa)(Devon) personally besides Devon, City Place is my favorite downtown building.
No we have no clue what this will look like. That's where my caution and skepticism comes into play. Yeah it could end up being world class or it could end up being century center with a 14 story glass box on it. if he wasn't ready for the scrutiny of announcing building a world class tower maybe he shouldn't have made it public. No one forced him to. Unless someone did???

Now a question for you, if I may. What about this conceptual rendering does make you so confident in this?if we knew that maybe we could all relax a bit. Or is it that you know DDRC will reject this and he will have to come back with something better (better being taller or a more unique design, with details and pre lease agreements for retail restaurants etc.?

[RadicalModerate]

But height is part of design.

It's not the only thing, but it is important -- most important to most people, in fact.

So, when you take that away then there is going to be more scrutiny on everything else. And since the "everything else" is just some block-y concept showing almost zero public space, then you are going to get howls and I think, rightfully so.

I think that it's about time people drop this old-fashioned fascination/obsession with height.
After all, it's way past the dawning of the Age of Aquarius and well into the New Millennium and that whole "height" thing is just so early 20th Century.
I think we need to start thinking about depth instead.
As in, "how low can you go?"
This is especially relevant when one considers the "architectural marvel" currently occupying the space.

[LakeEffect]

No, the DDRC has absolutely not been given enough to allow for demolition. Also height does not necessarily go hand in hand with "world class" (example Sydney Opera house 213" tall, world class all the way). But then again it does (burj khalifa)(Devon) personally besides Devon, City Place is my favorite downtown building.
No we have no clue what this will look like. That's where my caution and skepticism comes into play. Yeah it could end up being world class or it could end up being century center with a 14 story glass box on it. if he wasn't ready for the scrutiny of announcing building a world class tower maybe he shouldn't have made it public. No one forced him to. Unless someone did???

Now a question for you, if I may. What about this conceptual rendering does make you so confident in this?if we knew that maybe we could all relax a bit. Or is it that you know DDRC will reject this and he will have to come back with something better (better being taller or a more unique design, with details and pre lease agreements for retail restaurants etc.?

Oklahoma City ordinances do not, and DDRC is instructed that it cannot, use the future use in consideration of demolition. Would they deny, and state that as the grounds, the applicant could presumably appeal to BOA, and then to District Court (if necessary) and I would surmise they would win on those grounds.

[Steve]

No, the DDRC has absolutely not been given enough to allow for demolition. Also height does not necessarily go hand in hand with "world class" (example Sydney Opera house 213" tall, world class all the way). But then again it does (burj khalifa)(Devon) personally besides Devon, City Place is my favorite downtown building.
No we have no clue what this will look like. That's where my caution and skepticism comes into play. Yeah it could end up being world class or it could end up being century center with a 14 story glass box on it. if he wasn't ready for the scrutiny of announcing building a world class tower maybe he shouldn't have made it public. No one forced him to. Unless someone did???

Now a question for you, if I may. What about this conceptual rendering does make you so confident in this?if we knew that maybe we could all relax a bit. Or is it that you know DDRC will reject this and he will have to come back with something better (better being taller or a more unique design, with details and pre lease agreements for retail restaurants etc.?

I think people are jumping to conclusions as to what I might think about this particular building. I think we don't really know what it will look like and I'd like to know more.

[Pete]

Oklahoma City ordinances do not, and DDRC is instructed that it cannot, use the future use in consideration of demolition. Would they deny, and state that as the grounds, the applicant could presumably appeal to BOA, and then to District Court (if necessary) and I would surmise they would win on those grounds.

Thanks for bringing this up, as I know the point has been made previously.

So, what would be legal reasons (within guidelines or other laws) that would allow a denial of any demolition?