Watered down Marines

[Garin]

(CNSNews.com) -- Females in the Marine Corps currently are not required to do even a single pull-up, and a deadline mandating that by Jan. 1, 2014, they be able to do at least 3 pull-ups as part of their training has been delayed for at least a year, the Corps quietly announced on social media.

Unlike their female counterparts, male Marines have long been required to do at least 3 pullups as part of the Physical Fitness Test (PFT). That's the minimum requirement for males.

Female Marines are required, however, to do a flexed-arm hang from a bar, and their PFT score is calculated based upon how long they can properly hang on the bar. (See video for pull-ups and flexed-arm hang demonstrations.)

[video:1]

Currently, “women aren’t able to make the minimum standard of three pull-ups,” Marine spokesman Capt. Eric Flanagan told CNSNews.com. Fifty-five percent of female recruits tested at the end of boot camp were unable to do three pull-ups (1 percent of male recruits also failed).

Marine officers told NPR off-the-record that, given the three-pull-ups rule, they were afraid of losing “not only new recruits, but also current female Marines who can’t pass the test.”

Female Marines will be allowed to do the flexed-arm hang instead of pull-ups this year. With the arm hang, a person grabs the bar with both hands and pulls their body up and holds their chin above the bar for as long as possible.

If a female Marine can hold that flexed-arm hang for 70 seconds, she scores 100 points; 60 seconds, 80 points; 30 seconds, 30 points -- see chart.

The deadline for women to meet the men’s minimum standard of three pull-ups has been postponed a year and “will continue to be assessed,” Capt. Flanagan told CNSNews.com. The Marines' Twitter announcement on the topic was posted on Nov. 20. But by Dec. 27, few media outlets had mentioned the news.

Pull-ups have been used to test Marines’ upper body strength for over 40 years. The ability to pull-up one’s own body weight over a bar shows the upper body strength that, in combat, is needed to lift fallen comrades, pull one’s self over a wall, and carry heavy munitions. Combat Marines also carry a pack that weighs around 90 pounds, with gunners carrying an additional 50 or 60 pounds.


Women in the Marine Corps will be allowed into ground combat in 2016. The delay in meeting men’s physical standards has raised questions about “whether women have the physical strength to handle ground combat,” reported NPR.

“‘If you can’t pull yourself up, have the decency to pull yourself out,’ Ralph Peters, a retired Army officer and military historian, told Time.com. “‘The military, despite all the post-modern technology, is still essentially physical.’”

The Marines’s “Corps Report” anchor, Lance Cpl. Ally Beiswanger, explained that the deadline has been extended to allow for “further gathering of data to ensure that all female Marines are given the best opportunity to succeed.”

She also stated that last year she could only do one pull-up, and “now I’m up to eight.”
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[Achilleslastand]

See if they can do a minimum 100 push ups then weed out all non hackers.

[Chadanth]

“‘If you can’t pull yourself up, have the decency to pull yourself out,’ Ralph Peters, a retired Army officer and military historian, told Time.com. “‘The military, despite all the post-modern technology, is still essentially physical.’”

Funny that the quote is from an army officer, who was likely never required to do pull ups on a PFT. They're only required for airborne school.

Regardless, women serve in the Russian, Canadian, Israeli and other ground combat forces. They'll be integrated, and will do fine eventually. I hate that they'll lower the standard for some activities, but in my decade in the infantry, I never had to pull myself up a cliff. I'd be more interested to see the long-term effects of carrying the heavy loads that the infantry does on women's bodies.

[ctchandler]

Chadanth,
I think the LtCol probably did a few pull ups in his 3-4 years of enlisted days. The following is from Wikepedia - "Peters enlisted in the Army in 1976, after attending Pennsylvania State University. Peters' first assignment was in Germany. After returning from Germany, he attended Officer Candidate School and received a commission in 1980.".
C. T.

“‘If you can’t pull yourself up, have the decency to pull yourself out,’ Ralph Peters, a retired Army officer and military historian, told Time.com. “‘The military, despite all the post-modern technology, is still essentially physical.’”

Funny that the quote is from an army officer, who was likely never required to do pull ups on a PFT. They're only required for airborne school.

[Chadanth]

Chadanth,
I think the LtCol probably did a few pull ups in his 3-4 years of enlisted days. The following is from Wikepedia - "Peters enlisted in the Army in 1976, after attending Pennsylvania State University. Peters' first assignment was in Germany. After returning from Germany, he attended Officer Candidate School and received a commission in 1980.".
C. T.

There's a difference between doing a few and selecting the fact that females have trouble doing the required number of pull-ups as reason to deny them combat jobs. The army doesn't require them except for a couple specific schools. There are numerous militaries in the world that do just fine with women in combat roles.

If the conversation is about lowering the bar for special operations forces, or that readiness will degrade, or that it costs a lot more money to produce a female infantry soldier (infantryperson?) due to higher attrition rates, then that's a very legitimate conversation.

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

Eh. I did 11 years, and I never met a woman Marine that I would have hesitated to go into combat with. They're Marines...they'll kick your ass as hard as the men will.

[venture]

Eh. I did 11 years, and I never met a woman Marine that I would have hesitated to go into combat with. They're Marines...they'll kick your ass as hard as the men will.

Perhaps Garin should go up to a female Marine and tell her she is watering down the Corp. I wonder what kind of response he would get? Though...it probably would take care of our troll problem here.

[Achilleslastand]

Perhaps Garin should go up to a female Marine and tell her she is watering down the Corp. I wonder what kind of response he would get? Though...it probably would take care of our troll problem here.

Depends on the WM.
I met a few in my day that in all honesty I wondered why they were there but then again they were basically admin/clerical.

[Garin]

Perhaps Garin should go up to a female Marine and tell her she is watering down the Corp. I wonder what kind of response he would get? Though...it probably would take care of our troll problem here.

Your personal attacks towards myself make you look like a real looney toon..... It's almost fatal attractionish

[ctchandler]

Chadanth,
I was only correcting your comment about "army officer" since he was enlisted for three to four years. It appeared you were saying that as an officer, he wasn't required to do what enlisted men are required to do, and again, he was enlisted. In basic training, I'm sure he did quite a few pull ups. It has been too long since I was in the service to give an honest opinion about women serving, either in or out of combat roles, I never served (almost eight years) with women.
C. T.

There's a difference between doing a few and selecting the fact that females have trouble doing the required number of pull-ups as reason to deny them combat jobs. The army doesn't require them except for a couple specific schools. There are numerous militaries in the world that do just fine with women in combat roles.

If the conversation is about lowering the bar for special operations forces, or that readiness will degrade, or that it costs a lot more money to produce a female infantry soldier (infantryperson?) due to higher attrition rates, then that's a very legitimate conversation.

[Dennis Heaton]

On a related topic...when is Congress going to Amend THE MILITARY SELECTIVE SERVICE ACT (50 U.S.C. App. 451 et seq), As Amended Through July 9, 2003...and include all able-bodied females between the ages of 18 through 25 to register?

Selective Service System: Welcome

__________________

You Are What You Do

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

Or get rid of it entirely.

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

Depends on the WM.
I met a few in my day that in all honesty I wondered why they were there but then again they were basically admin/clerical.

Same here.

But I still wouldn't mess with 'em.

[Chadanth]

Chadanth,
I was only correcting your comment about "army officer" since he was enlisted for three to four years. It appeared you were saying that as an officer, he wasn't required to do what enlisted men are required to do, and again, he was enlisted. In basic training, I'm sure he did quite a few pull ups. It has been too long since I was in the service to give an honest opinion about women serving, either in or out of combat roles, I never served (almost eight years) with women.
C. T.

I should have been more clear, I meant simply "army". I did 10 years enlisted and outside of a couple high-end schools, was never required to do pull ups. The PFT is the same for officers and enlisted.

[ctchandler]

Chadanth,
As a former sailor, I have no idea what they do in the Army, even though I was stationed at Ft. Ritchie Maryland with a joint command for almost four years. I did do pull ups, push ups, quite a few calisthenics (we called them our "JFKs" since physical fitness was a priority for president Kennedy). Former OU coach, Bud Wilkinson was the head of president Kennedy's council on physical fitness, or something like that.
C. T.

I should have been more clear, I meant simply "army". I did 10 years enlisted and outside of a couple high-end schools, was never required to do pull ups. The PFT is the same for officers and enlisted.

[Chadanth]

Chadanth,
As a former sailor, I have no idea what they do in the Army, even though I was stationed at Ft. Ritchie Maryland with a joint command for almost four years. I did do pull ups, push ups, quite a few calisthenics (we called them our "JFKs" since physical fitness was a priority for president Kennedy). Former OU coach, Bud Wilkinson was the head of president Kennedy's council on physical fitness, or something like that.
C. T.

I never heard that about JFK. That's interesting.

It's odd, because my marine friends did pull ups, the army does push-ups. They both have a run and an abdominal event also. It might sound sexist, but I think that women are at an anatomical disadvantage in pull-ups, I've never seen a woman, even quite fit, do very many. Push ups, however, they seem to do fine at. Meh.

[Jersey Boss]

FWIW, when I was in (74-78) chin-ups were an acceptable substitute for pull ups on the PFT.

[Achilleslastand]

I never heard that about JFK. That's interesting.

It's odd, because my marine friends did pull ups, the army does push-ups. They both have a run and an abdominal event also. It might sound sexist, but I think that women are at an anatomical disadvantage in pull-ups, I've never seen a woman, even quite fit, do very many. Push ups, however, they seem to do fine at. Meh.

Our PFT basically consisted of a 3 mile run{around 18 mins or less got you a high score},how many sit ups{not crunches} you could do in 2 mins{80 max} and pull ups{20 for perfect score}. However in the other 23 1/2 hours of the day we were treated to countless numbers of push ups, bends and thrusts, and many other favorites to numerous to mention.

[Chadanth]

Our PFT basically consisted of a 3 mile run{around 18 mins or less got you a high score},how many sit ups{not crunches} you could do in 2 mins{80 max} and pull ups{20 for perfect score}. However in the other 23 1/2 hours of the day we were treated to countless numbers of push ups, bends and thrusts, and many other favorites to numerous to mention.

Sounds eerily similar to my experience, but with fewer pull-ups.

[ctchandler]

Chadanth,
This on the John F. Kennedy Presidential Library and Museum.
C. T.


AR 6449-B 23 March 1961 President Kennedy meets with Charles "Bud" Wilkinson, football coach at the University of Oklahoma and new director of the Youth Fitness Program. White House, Oval Office. Photograph by Abbie Rowe, National Park Service, in the John F. Kennedy Presidential Library and Museum, Boston.Date: 03/23/1961Creator: Photograph by Abbie Rowe, National Park Service, in the John F. Kennedy Presidential Library and Museum, Boston.Copyright: Public Domain

I never heard that about JFK. That's interesting.

It's odd, because my marine friends did pull ups, the army does push-ups. They both have a run and an abdominal event also. It might sound sexist, but I think that women are at an anatomical disadvantage in pull-ups, I've never seen a woman, even quite fit, do very many. Push ups, however, they seem to do fine at. Meh.

[Chadanth]

Chadanth,
This on the John F. Kennedy Presidential Library and Museum.
C. T.


AR 6449-B 23 March 1961 President Kennedy meets with Charles "Bud" Wilkinson, football coach at the University of Oklahoma and new director of the Youth Fitness Program. White House, Oval Office. Photograph by Abbie Rowe, National Park Service, in the John F. Kennedy Presidential Library and Museum, Boston.Date: 03/23/1961Creator: Photograph by Abbie Rowe, National Park Service, in the John F. Kennedy Presidential Library and Museum, Boston.Copyright: Public Domain

Very cool.

[ctchandler]

Chadanth,
I was on Guam at the time and we had monthly, quarterly, and annual "JFK's" and there were weight requirements that you had to meet or stand a chance of losing a stripe. I don't think that happened while I was there. My command set up our JFK's as a competitive event where each function you participated in counted (weighted, of course) in your final score. There were some required calisthenics and some optional. Running was optional but added to your score. It really did make it kind of fun, at least for us young guys in good shape.
C. T.

Very cool.