OG&E Tower

[Plutonic Panda]

I would take the density every time, Pete. Is there something you're seeing around here that indicates we don't need more density still?

Tbh, just driving and walking around a lot in the last few days, and though I'm very excited to be back home, it hits me how badly blighted and underdeveloped OKC still is. Even downtown. We need horizontal density more than we need vertical erections.

And Spartan, have you seen how many new infill projects are taking place? Is it really bad to ask for at least two or three super falls here? If that is unrealistic or OKC is not ready for that, we should at least be building a 25 story+ skyscraper on sites as important as where the Stage Center is.

[Plutonic Panda]

And that's the deeply insightful and thoughtful perspective you're known for...

Thank you(even though I realize you are not expressing that in complementary way), it is an opinion and still applies even if you disagree with it. In case you missed my other post that I corrected, you may want to go back and re-read it.

[Spartan]

And Spartan, have you seen how many new infill projects are taking place? Is it really bad to ask for at least two or three super falls here? If that is unrealistic or OKC is not ready for that, we should at least be building a 25 story+ skyscraper on sites as important as where the Stage Center is.

Yeah, it is. Any city not named NYC or Chicago isn't going to get three supertalls. As for what we have done, we've filled 4 blocks in Deep Deuce. We're set to fill another 2 in Bricktown and another 2 in Midtown. Let's keep it going we need a LOT more.

A drive anywhere through downtown will take you past dozens of bad blocks, and a couple of good ones. That's the reality.

[bchris02]

Yeah, it is. Any city not named NYC or Chicago isn't going to get three supertalls. As for what we have done, we've filled 4 blocks in Deep Deuce. We're set to fill another 2 in Bricktown and another 2 in Midtown. Let's keep it going we need a LOT more.

A drive anywhere through downtown will take you past dozens of bad blocks, and a couple of good ones. That's the reality.

We need more skyline-changing skyscrapers AND infill. I think OKC could support at least one more high-rise. Maybe not as tall as the Devon tower but taller than the Chase Tower. That would also help balance out the skyline. Right now, it looks ridiculous from certain angles. I also disagree that any city not NYC or Chicago will get three supertalls. Austin has and will likely get more before all is said and done. So did Charlotte in the 2000s. Nashville is about to get one and it wouldn't surprise me if they got another one shortly after. Tulsa has FOUR skyscrapers taller than the Chase Tower. It's not unrealistic to hope for another skyline altering tower in OKC.

[flintysooner]

I would be just fine with this development if it were 35 stories and anything above that would be an added bonus. I don't expect it to be bigger than the Devon Tower(which I would love to see a building or two bigger than 900ft here but I'm not getting my hopes up).

As someone who wants to participate in developing in the urban core one day and building great urban projects, let me say I wish the best of luck to Williams and hope he is successful in building this tower. All I can say is if it were me, I would build it in Midtown or somewhere in Film Row, not in the CBD.

Some of the comments here make it seem that development is arbitrary and speculative. That's just not true.

There has to be a tenant (or tenants) and the tenant has to want to be on a site that actually can be developed accordingly. That's just the beginning. If you can get to the starting line then the really hard and expensive work begins.

Now, depending upon financing options available, you may be able to get by with something less than 100% leased but the more leased the better.

So if you want a 60 story building then you have to find one or more tenants to occupy a whole bunch of those floors. And those tenants have to want to be in Oklahoma City at that very place.

That's just the beginning. After that you start spending a whole bunch of your own money so you can borrow a whole bunch more. You have leases to negotiate (meaning lots of legal $) and execute. You have approvals. You have engineering and a host of architectural plans to purchase. Mostly this is all your money by the way. And if it is a big project then it is going to be pretty big money on your part.

Surprising to some it turns out that finding those initial tenants is not all that easily done. Companies that can afford to lease a bunch of space in a brand new building in Oklahoma City have options. So the universe of potential tenants shrinks rather quickly.

And if you really want to be a developer (as in real estate developer) it turns out that it is a lot easier to secure tenants, investors, financing, and so on if you've accomplished a few other projects. Even then it's probably better to get a few tens of millions dollars projects before you get in the hundreds and billions.

[Plutonic Panda]

Yeah, it is. Any city not named NYC or Chicago isn't going to get three supertalls. As for what we have done, we've filled 4 blocks in Deep Deuce. We're set to fill another 2 in Bricktown and another 2 in Midtown. Let's keep it going we need a LOT more.

A drive anywhere through downtown will take you past dozens of bad blocks, and a couple of good ones. That's the reality.

Ok, so that's fine. We can support buildings over 25 stories on prime lots such as the Stage Center.

All I am saying is we need sine skyline changing buildings that are significant. We almost had a super tall and there is no reason that we couldn't get one. Midland is about to get one, so that says something.

[PhiAlpha]

Ok, so that's fine. We can support buildings over 25 stories on prime lots such as the Stage Center.

All I am saying is we need sine skyline changing buildings that are significant. We almost had a super tall and there is no reason that we couldn't get one. Midland is about to get one, so that says something.

Midland isn't getting a supertall. The Energy Tower isn't going to be much taller then Devon and Devon wasn't ever classified as a super tall even before being reduced. After staying in Midland's DT a few weeks ago, it really drove home how ridiculous that project is. They really could use several more mid-rise towers with solid street interaction before adding a tower like that. Midland's downtown area is pitiful when it comes down to street interaction, and activity outside of business hours. It feels like OKC in 1993, though it has a much better economy then we did at the time. A lot of the development has moved out of downtown due to the cheaper real estate.

[hoya]

Cool. And I agree - this whole proposition should be subject to a thorough discussion of what is gained and lost, of what expectations should be set, etc.
I've asked this before, I'll ask it again: if folks on this board had their choice, would they prefer one 60-story building or would they prefer a 16-story tower, a 12-story building, a 20-story tower and another 20-story tower?

I take the 60 story in a heartbeat, because they are more difficult to get. There are a lot more circumstances that can arise where a 12-20 story building gets built than a 60 story. Take the rare ones when you can get them.

[Spartan]

We need more skyline-changing skyscrapers AND infill. I think OKC could support at least one more high-rise. Maybe not as tall as the Devon tower but taller than the Chase Tower. That would also help balance out the skyline. Right now, it looks ridiculous from certain angles. I also disagree that any city not NYC or Chicago will get three supertalls. Austin has and will likely get more before all is said and done. So did Charlotte in the 2000s. Nashville is about to get one and it wouldn't surprise me if they got another one shortly after. Tulsa has FOUR skyscrapers taller than the Chase Tower. It's not unrealistic to hope for another skyline altering tower in OKC.

Please help me to better identify these supertalls of Charlotte which you speak of...

[ljbab728]

Please help me to better identify these supertalls of Charlotte which you speak of...

We'd like to know about the supertalls in Austin also, Spartan. Nashville has talked about this for a long time but isn't about to get any yet.

[UnFrSaKn]

You can't really blame us Millennials for wanting to experience another skyscraper boom since we were too young to remember the last one in the 80's when five skyscrapers were built, 1980-1984. Continental, Oklahoma Tower, Corporate Tower, Leadership Square North and South.

[kevinpate]

Given the choice of multiple 20 story and less structures that someone is apparently ready and willing to build and a 60 story or so tower that near on as anyone knows for certain no one is ready to build, I'm good with the direction the current developer is taking.

Yeah, ok, I put a twist in there that Steve did not, but I think it is a fair twist. Yes, there were other lookers interested in SC, but no one was out there screaming the sellers were idiots for taking a pass on a supertall proposal in favor of the winning proposal.

And as far as the developer being stuck with the moniker of the guy who dozed SC, the reality is there are going to be more folks who say that with a smile and a hallelujah in their tonal quality than there are who will sneer it with spittle running down their chin. Fer cryin' out loud, I really enjoyed my trips there, and will enjoy the memories for a long time, but again being real - the one semi-serious proposal to 'save' SC was a group who had no real financial backing buy lacked the place so much they hoped to spend millions to turn something with minimal exhibit space into a children's museum.

The only salvation SC was going to truly have was a white knight with way more money than sense (aka me winning a mega lotto or similar) who did it just to be able to say been there, done that, sold some t shirts and ticked out a few in the process. I have to suspect if the lotto dream had ever materialized there would have been no small number of the arts community who would have moved heaven and earth to see such funds poured into the arts, rather than burned up in a vanity project. And dang it, they'd be right, too.

Anyway, back to the matter at hand. Go for it Williams! But if you scrap your multi non tall structures for a waffle house, then there's going to be trouble.

[bchris02]

Please help me to better identify these supertalls of Charlotte which you speak of...

It depends on your definition of supertall. I am not going by the official definition. I am going by OKC's standard which is anything taller than the Chase tower - that is 500 ft. Charlotte has five of them, three of them finished since 2000. The Duke Energy Tower, which is somewhat similar in design to the Devon Tower was completed in 2010 along with the Vue, a high-rise residential tower. They have also had nine additional towers added since 2000 that are below 500 ft but above 200 ft. The boom there was simply remarkable.

[pickles]

It depends on your definition of supertall. I am not going by the official definition. I am going by OKC's standard which is anything taller than the Chase tower - that is 500 ft. Charlotte has five of them, three of them finished since 2000. The Duke Energy Tower, which is somewhat similar in design to the Devon Tower was completed in 2010 along with the Vue, a high-rise residential tower. They have also had nine additional towers added since 2000 that are below 500 ft but above 200 ft. The boom there was simply remarkable.

Tell me more about Charlotte.

[David]

It depends on your definition of supertall. I am not going by the official definition. I am going by OKC's standard which is anything taller than the Chase tower - that is 500 ft. Charlotte has five of them, three of them finished since 2000. The Duke Energy Tower, which is somewhat similar in design to the Devon Tower was completed in 2010 along with the Vue, a high-rise residential tower. They have also had nine additional towers added since 2000 that are below 500 ft but above 200 ft. The boom there was simply remarkable.

You can't just use your own definitions and expect others to follow along. Hell, you can't really just use your own definitions period. Supertall has a meaning and it is not what you are using.

[bchris02]

You can't just use your own definitions and expect others to follow along. Hell, you can't really just use your own definitions period. Supertall has a meaning and it is not what you are using.

Fair enough. A true supertall boom may be unrealistic for OKC, but I don't see why there can't be another tower or two over 500 ft.

[Urbanized]

Some of the comments here make it seem that development is arbitrary and speculative. That's just not true.

There has to be a tenant (or tenants) and the tenant has to want to be on a site that actually can be developed accordingly. That's just the beginning. If you can get to the starting line then the really hard and expensive work begins.

Now, depending upon financing options available, you may be able to get by with something less than 100% leased but the more leased the better.

So if you want a 60 story building then you have to find one or more tenants to occupy a whole bunch of those floors. And those tenants have to want to be in Oklahoma City at that very place.

That's just the beginning. After that you start spending a whole bunch of your own money so you can borrow a whole bunch more. You have leases to negotiate (meaning lots of legal $) and execute. You have approvals. You have engineering and a host of architectural plans to purchase. Mostly this is all your money by the way. And if it is a big project then it is going to be pretty big money on your part.

Surprising to some it turns out that finding those initial tenants is not all that easily done. Companies that can afford to lease a bunch of space in a brand new building in Oklahoma City have options. So the universe of potential tenants shrinks rather quickly.

And if you really want to be a developer (as in real estate developer) it turns out that it is a lot easier to secure tenants, investors, financing, and so on if you've accomplished a few other projects. Even then it's probably better to get a few tens of millions dollars projects before you get in the hundreds and billions.

Stop injecting common sense and business reality into our fantasy, party pooper. We should just be able to snap our fingers and get a whole bunch of 1,000 foot tall skyscrapers because...we want them!

[OKCisOK4me]

Yeah, it is. Any city not named NYC or Chicago isn't going to get three supertalls. As for what we have done, we've filled 4 blocks in Deep Deuce. We're set to fill another 2 in Bricktown and another 2 in Midtown. Let's keep it going we need a LOT more.

A drive anywhere through downtown will take you past dozens of bad blocks, and a couple of good ones. That's the reality.

So....what you're saying is, the grass isn't always greener? lol

[pw405]

Could someone with more talent than me show me what it would look like if the west tower of this project was replaced with a duplicate of the east tower.

I like the shape of the east tower because it is 1) all glass and 2) it has resemblance to the Devon tower design.

The pool and garden is a great idea but the views to the north will be the back of the office building. I'd expect an architect to do more than just want residents and visitors to be looking at that.

If both towers were of the similar shape but at a right angles, so they created a wall on Hudson and Sheridan, they'd also create a very beautiful outdoor room for those on the green roof. Staggering their heights a little would be a nice touch and easy to get away with as well with this type of design.

Anyone have friends at ADG to pitch this idea? I really think that the west tower is part of the reason this project is coming in so "meh". The whole visual focus is on the east tower and given that it is "only" 16 stories or so, it makes the whole development seem lopsided and an excessive use of land for the project.

To summarize, we need a 'twin towers' design, not a single pretty tower, with a bland office tower. To me, that would come closer to a 'world class' mark. World class means that all the components and details were paid attention to. Out of this whole project, the west tower is, to me, bringing the rest down.

Here's a rough visualization on what that would look like. I like the idea!

[pickles]

You can't just use your own definitions and expect others to follow along. Hell, you can't really just use your own definitions period. Supertall has a meaning and it is not what you are using.

Yeah, but the actual definition doesn't work nearly as well to buttress the point he's trying to make.

[bchris02]

Here's a rough visualization on what that would look like. I like the idea!

Now that would be cool, though I would rotate it 90 degrees counterclockwise so that you could view both towers from Myriad Gardens.

[David]

Yeah, but the actual definition doesn't work nearly as well to buttress the point he's trying to make.

Inconceivable!

[PhiAlpha]

You can't just use your own definitions and expect others to follow along. Hell, you can't really just use your own definitions period. Supertall has a meaning and it is not what you are using.

^ This...you can't make up your own definition for supertall...it already has a definition: any building 300 meters or taller. Neither midland, Nashville, Austin, nor Charlotte have one.

supertall building - definition | meaning | description | PSC #4198457539 - Phorio Standards

[OKCRT]

^ This...you can't make up your own definition for supertall...it already has a definition: any building 300 meters or taller. Neither midland, Nashville, Austin, nor Charlotte have one.

supertall building - definition | meaning | description | PSC #4198457539 - Phorio Standards

This is the US and we don't talk metrics.

Anyways,this Tower "not really a tower IMO" will not even be as tall as the regency. Scrap it and start over on this prime area. This is simply not good enough. A couple of small buildings will add nothing to the skyline. Move it to NW Expressway and they will fit right in. Rainey needs to stay out of downtown with this crap.

[Steve]

Let's also tear down the Civic Center Music Hall, City Hall, Courthouse, Skirvin, Oklahoman Building (NW 4 and Broadway) and the old U.S. Post Office. They're not tall enough for the folks at OKC Talk! If these buildings aren't at least 40 stories high, they're crap!