OG&E Tower

[jccouger]

Exactly how long has downtown been revitalized? Maybe 10 or so years? I believe we haven't given the stage center a chance to be revitalized. There was a longgggggg time where nothing downtown was useful, and that's why the excuse of saying the stage center hasn't been used for a long time is flawed. A LOT of buildings downtown that are useful today weren't useful for DECADES. What makes you people think that the Stage Center couldn't be redeveloped eventually, much like how the Skirvin was? Heck even bricktown? I just don't get tearing down a one of a kind structure that still has plenty of use left.

[Bellaboo]

Yes, this site repurposed, plus new bodies going into the present OGE space, is a considerable improvement over DT as it sits today. It fits well with the other changes in the area, and compared to a closed, decaying building ... not even questionable. Even the non-profit that is no longer saddled with a structure too expensive to repair, and dang expensive to let sit and rot, is far better off for having sold the property.

And for comparing to FNB, oh, puhlease, not even an apples and onions comparison. FNB may be a somewhat browned apple that folks keep reaching past for something else, but let's be real. The SC building may have once been all moma nd apple pie, but it's now not merely far far beyond edible, it is out back, at the dumpsters. Even flies were already saying hey, let's go hang out at some long unserviced portapotty rather then hang around the corpse like structure that SC became.

^ This - a few of these other post on this page sound like buyers remorse. How about all the naysayers here pool their money, buy out Rainy Williams site, and do something different.....welcome to the real world.

[Pete]

Regarding the disappointment in the lack of height for this project, it's understandable.

98% of the people in OKC don't care about street interaction or other urbanism concepts but all can see and appreciate a tall building as a clear sign of progress, growth and vitality. Absolutely everyone I know in town knew about Devon Tower and virtually no one knows about the Parkside Building. It's just the way it works.

A city's face is it's downtown skyline. Every single article about OKC shows downtown; every NBA telecast focuses on Devon and the other tall structures.

So, when you are hoping for a 30-story or taller structure and you are giving up a building that many deeply admire and all this fronts on the city's main park that has been built and improved with hundreds of millions of tax payer dollars, you have to respect the backlash when you see renderings of a building no taller than several on NW Expressway.

I'm disappointed, too. It's a missed opportunity to grow, modernize and balance our skyline. It's also the first big development after Devon, where we had all openly proclaimed "the bar has been raised!" with excited references to what happened in Charlotte when their first very tall building was erected.


I like that the project fully utilizes the block and that we may get as many as three mid-rise buildings out of this, but I doubt many people -- even the most ardent urbanist -- would rather have that than one 40-story, iconic building that still relates well to everything around it. Tall and engaging at street level are far from mutually exclusive concepts.


Now that I've digested this for a few days, I do have one other pretty big gripe: There is very little for the public here. One restaurant space on the ground floor? That's it??

Many don't like that Devon is set back from the street but they do provide a very nice public park, an excellent dining patio, tons of fountains and beautiful hardscape, all the open common space in the rotunda and garden wing, Nebu & Aravalli and the dining areas on the ground floor, Vast and the related banquet facilities on the 49th & 50th floors. They have installed amazing Christmas decorations and have hosted all kinds of events (Saturday with Santa going on today, in fact) IN their facilities.

So -- unless this project changes drastically -- we'll have a ground floor restaurant or two looking out on the street with a glimpse of the park behind. You can bet the conference center (fourth floor and over looking the park) will not be open to the general public. Hope I'm wrong on that, but I doubt I am.

No big open public space indoors, no grand lobby or rotunda... Perhaps the green roof will be open but I wouldn't count on that. And in any event, the park view will be completely blocked by the OG&E building.


So, what does the community get in exchange for bulldozing an at least somewhat respected and loved piece of architecture? A pretty much private HQ for OG&E and maybe (maybe!) some other smaller buildings, which in any case will not face, provide views of or interact with the park.


None of this is the end of the world but if any of us were going to draw up what we wanted from this project, almost nothing -- other than street interaction, and even that is not fantastic -- looks to have been satisfied.

[OKCRT]

The stage center needs to be removed but there needs to be a real skyscraper built there. This 14 story building should be over by Regency if they want to stay in the area or move it to the Expressway area. It's crazy to think that everybody waited all this time for a 14 story building to be built on prime land in downtown. Hard to get excited about this.

There were other groups bidding to purchase this land. Do we know what their plans were? Maybe they should sell this property before they make a huge mistake and build this small building there.

[jccouger]

<3

That brought a tear to my eye, Pete. IF we are losing an Oklahoma City Icon, WE DESERVE BETTER. I've said this many times before, I do not mind losing the stage center if we would be replacing it with something of huge magnitude. This project does not even come close as is. Even if you do not enjoy the Stage Center personally you should love thy neighbor, respect your OKC brothers and sisters, and understand that losing the stage center for this project as it currently stands would be a complete failure of the lessons we have had to learn from our tragic past. Lessons are for exams, and if allowing the stage center to be torn down for this was the exam we would all get an F.

You know, sometimes life isn't all about what is best monetarily. Sometimes you need to slow down and smell the roses and enjoy the beauty in life. I graduated college with a business degree, so I understand money runs the world. That does not mean it is the most important thing to life. I probably will have zero say in the eventual outcome of this situation, but this is a message board and I'm going to post my opinion whether its popular or not.

[OKCisOK4me]

Honestly, let's not let Sonic be one of the only headquarters in Bricktown. Move this project over between Sheridan and Reno on the west face of Lincoln. Get rid of that collision auto center and anchor East Bricktown with a 14 story headquarters. This project would look better there and keep the SC site open for REAL skyward development. Anything that is taller than 5 stories is going to block the sun from the MBG especially if its a wide structure as currently proposed. Might as well seek a tall and slender project on that site that is worthy of destroying what many think is an icon.

[Pete]

If this was 16 stories with a fantastic atrium/rotunda with tons of restaurants and retail and an urban Target and other cool things for the public that helped activate the awesome Myriad Gardens, then the height would be less important.

But this is amounting to a private HQ for a public utility company, and not a very tall or grand one at that. A company that requires privacy in a building with a one-level, small lobby and no other real public space.

I hope whoever is involved in the final design is reading this thread because they are getting ready to go to battle for the demolition permit and I don't see a lot people getting excited about this proposed project that will go in it's place. And this from a bunch of urban development fanboys!

[BoulderSooner]

Lots of people think that a grass lot would be an improvement over the stage center

[OKCisOK4me]

Does anyone on here know anyone that will grant approval to this project? Email them this thread--but be sure to tell them to start at page (whenever the first dismal announcement was made and read on from there).

[Pete]

I was just thinking about how many times I've been into First National Center, Leadership Square and Devon Energy Center. Way too many to count, because they all offer lots of interior gathering spaces and restaurants and services.

Now, how many times have any of us been in the Kerr McGee / SandRidge Tower? I've been in a total of one time, and that was a specifically arranged private tour by their PR people about a year ago.

Heck, I don't even live in OKC and I've been in Devon dozens of times: lunch and breakfast at Nebu, coffee and gelato at Aravalli, just stopped in to use their restrooms and look around, had drinks at Vast, held my class reunion on the 50th floor, sat in the park, met with friends.

How many times will I ever go into this project?? Perhaps if it has a good restaurant but whatever they put in the ground floor could never compare to the settings at Vast, Flint, Park House or even Nebu.


Yes, of course it will be good to have this property developed and get more tax dollars but that would happen no matter what is built here. Other than that basic benefit, what is in this for the community??

[progressiveboy]

As I mentioned in an earlier thread, so glad to see the SC building go and something more "aesthetically" pleasing in it's place. Stage Center is not worth preserving and has to many structural and damage to make it feasible to rehabilitate. In addition, the outside of the building is quite ugly. Stained concrete, sheet rock colored metal, nothing polished or pleasing to the eye. I could care less about the height or structure of the OG&E building as this is not a deal breaker. It has great curb appeal and street interaction. Besides, that corner needs a more "polished" modern look. No love lost for the Stage Center as far as my opinion, however, I know many want the structure saved but it is not economically feasible and too cost prohibitive.

[bchris02]

Yeah, and worse off, I fear we might end with a scaled down version of something like 10 stories. This building is minuscule and not worthy of leveling the Stage Center. I really think we will be sorry one day.

I am afraid this may end up happening. When has a building ever been scaled up from the initial rendering? It is usually scaled down. Even the Devon Tower, which is an awesome skyscraper, was scaled down from what was originally envisioned. We may end up losing the Stage Center for an 8-10 story gray box.

[bchris02]

As I mentioned in an earlier thread, so glad to see the SC building go and something more "aesthetically" pleasing in it's place. Stage Center is not worth preserving and has to many structural and damage to make it feasible to rehabilitate. In addition, the outside of the building is quite ugly. Stained concrete, sheet rock colored metal, nothing polished or pleasing to the eye. I could care less about the height or structure of the OG&E building as this is not a deal breaker. It has great curb appeal and street interaction. Besides, that corner needs a more "polished" modern look. No love lost for the Stage Center as far as my opinion, however, I know many want the structure saved but it is not economically feasible and too cost prohibitive.

Was the Century Center really more aesthetically pleasing than the Baum Building and the Criterion theatre? Maybe by the standards of 1970s modernist architecture, but looking back on it we can see it was a monumental mistake that OKC is still paying the price for 40 years later. I am afraid 30 years from now people will be saying the same thing about the Stage Center.

[bchris02]

<3

That brought a tear to my eye, Pete. IF we are losing an Oklahoma City Icon, WE DESERVE BETTER. I've said this many times before, I do not mind losing the stage center if we would be replacing it with something of huge magnitude. This project does not even come close as is. Even if you do not enjoy the Stage Center personally you should love thy neighbor, respect your OKC brothers and sisters, and understand that losing the stage center for this project as it currently stands would be a complete failure of the lessons we have had to learn from our tragic past. Lessons are for exams, and if allowing the stage center to be torn down for this was the exam we would all get an F.

You know, sometimes life isn't all about what is best monetarily. Sometimes you need to slow down and smell the roses and enjoy the beauty in life. I graduated college with a business degree, so I understand money runs the world. That does not mean it is the most important thing to life. I probably will have zero say in the eventual outcome of this situation, but this is a message board and I'm going to post my opinion whether its popular or not.

I completely agree with this. I don't particularly like the Stage Center, but it is unique and iconic. I would be supportive of replacing it if the replacement was worthy, but this project falls short, very short. The way OKC always seems to be eager to destroy its architectural landmarks is one of the reasons so many people perceive this city as a cultural and characterless wasteland.

[Plutonic Panda]

Lots of people think that a grass lot would be an improvement over the stage center

Lots of people don't know what they're talking about either.

[CaptDave]

IF this is built exactly as in the renderings it should be ok, but only ok not great. But if we get the far too common overpromise / underdeliver pattern of OKC development, we have a big problem. I hadn't thought about it essentially being an OG&E bunker until Pete's post and that has tempered my initial impression of the design. I am not crazy over Stage Center but acknowledge it is an architecturally significant structure so we should expect its replacement to contribute the private AND public environment.

[Pete]

How about moving the private OG&E structure to the north or west side of the block and putting a hotel or something remotely publicly accessible facing the park??

Devon went to tremendous lengths to make their HQ (and Colcord!) open and inviting and the very next project on the park is the complete opposite?


Remember, the whole Project 180 pitch was focused on spending hundreds of millions of public money to attract NEW companies downtown. This project does not represent that, in fact OG&E was looking for a new downtown HQ before Project 180.

So, now their employees get to benefit from the massive investment in the park (and downtown elementary school) and everyone else is effectively cut-off from what was a public art space previously?


This has gone from a huge private development with lots of promise to what appears to be a private HQ for a public utility with little else for the community.

I am not a Stage Center lover but considering that will be sacrificed, I don't think this is good enough.


And if this is going to be significantly better/different than proposed, you have to think they would have included the best-case scenario when seeking a demolition permit.

Even if there is a 8-12 story residential or hotel building included (which seems far from assured), that's the best we can hope for, with absolutely no view or interaction with the park.

[OKCisOK4me]

That's why I hope the previously released renderings are just conceptual and nothing more. They're going to need to up their game and come out with real renderings to deem the stage center even close to being demolished.

Can us public go to this meeting in January and give our input? I'd really hate for the city to make a huge mistake because they're blinded by the ambition of the mega corporation...

[CaptDave]

Great points Pete. The "proposed" hotel/residential structure seems slapped on as an afterthought almost. If the design is revised to encourage more public interaction, the somewhat low overall height becomes less negative. Just hard to know either way from these initial conceptual drawings. It could turn out far better, or much worse. But once the Stage Center is demolished to make way for construction, the likelihood of significant improvements goes down and revisions on the negative side become more likely I am afraid.

[Pete]

Also, unless the Cox Center is demolished -- far from a certainty -- this is only one of TWO available spots on the park, the other being directly south.

The Convention Center is going to take everything else.

So we only have two shots to interact with the park and leverage the massive amount of public investment there. And this is what we get? A company already located downtown who was going to stay down there anyway long before the P180 stuff or the announcement of the elementary school.

No views of the park at all from this development, at least none that will be seen by non OG&E employees.

And it's directly across from the school which you think would be part of an awesome incentive package to get a NEW company with NEW jobs to build in this spot.


I'd be more understanding if this was at least for Enable, because they are new and could potentially bring tons of new jobs to OKC.

[catch22]

I am afraid this may end up happening. When has a building ever been scaled up from the initial rendering? It is usually scaled down. Even the Devon Tower, which is an awesome skyscraper, was scaled down from what was originally envisioned. We may end up losing the Stage Center for an 8-10 story gray box.

Wrong. Initial reports from Devon were that it would be around 30-35 stories.

[bchris02]

If OKC development history is any indication, we may end up with a 10 story OG&E gray box with no character at all, no green roof, no hotel/residential and no street interaction.

Before you say I am just being negative, compare the initial concept designs for Lower Bricktown and the Belle Isle Shopping Center to what was actually built.

[Pete]

Wrong. Initial reports from Devon were that it would be around 30-35 stories.

When they first unveiled the model and made the official announcement, Devon was to be 55 stories.

They later cut it down because they decided to keep some IT functions outside of downtown.

[bchris02]

Wrong. Initial reports from Devon were that it would be around 30-35 stories.

Was there ever a rendering showing that though? The initial reports were that this building would be at least 20 stories, possibly 30 and right from the get go we are looking at a tower that is half that.

[OKCRT]

I wonder what the other groups that were bidding on this site wanted to build?