Oklahoma liquor laws

[Jersey Boss]

Did liquor stores used to be open until 10:00 at one time? I seem to remember that and thinking the closing time changing in the mid-80's.

The hours changed when liquor by the drink replaced liquor by the wink, and ABLE came about. I believe it was in the early-mid 80's.

[jerrywall]

Since you are a Beer Crafter you would probably know if this is true or not but we were told by the guide on a tour of Summit Brewery in St. Paul, MN, that beer should always be refrigerated to some degree in order to maximize its shelf life and flavor. Summit makes some excellent products, btw.

Oh: Re "beer flavored beverages": O'Doul's Amber ain't half bad. It's certainly not my ultimate beer of choice (I like Smithwick's, for example) but it will certainly do in a pinch.

While fermenting is taking place, beer should be kept around 60 or a little lower, but once done as long as they don't get "hot" they should be fine. The big danger with beers is light.

But pretty much all beers are transported warm, warehoused warm, or delivered warm (even in states with refrigeration). Then they get put into coolers at the stores.

Now one exception would be unpasteurized beers. Keeping them cool is important for life and can improve aging. YMMV of course.

[RadicalModerate]

The hours changed when liquor by the drink replaced liquor by the wink, and ABLE came about. I believe it was in the early-mid 80's.

Quick question (non-rhetorical, no snark involved, honest question): Has ABLE ever done anything actually worth doing?

(other than generating the occasional headline about one boneheaded move or another that provides the opportunity to scratch one's head wondering WTF . . . sort of like a logic problem.)

[kevinpate]

In 2012 in Payne County, it only required one person, the area's state rep, to get up at a county commission meeting and ask members to allow a county election to legalize liquor by the drink on Sunday. The suggestion was approved 2 to 1. If only it was that easy at the state level.

Bunty, the one request may have been easy enough that one night, but there was a long, slow, quite resistant history before it was able to be 'that easy'.
Oklahomans did not get enough on board to repeal Prohibition until late, late in the 50's. It was another 20 plus years of bottle clubs and liquor by the wink before there was a state-wide vote, just to get a county option for liquor by the drink law into place. And still another 26 plus years went by before the one state rep stood before your county commissioners for an easy vote.

Nothing related to alcohol sales has ever come easy in this state.

[Bunty]

Bunty, the one request may have been easy enough that one night, but there was a long, slow, quite resistant history before it was able to be 'that easy'.
Oklahomans did not get enough on board to repeal Prohibition until late, late in the 50's. It was another 20 plus years of bottle clubs and liquor by the wink before there was a state-wide vote, just to get a county option for liquor by the drink law into place. And still another 26 plus years went by before the one state rep stood before your county commissioners for an easy vote.

Nothing related to alcohol sales has ever come easy in this state.

So apathy over a given issue usually rules, with too many people being satisfied being denied liberties. Of course, if one never drinks and never wanted to, it's not exactly felt a liberty was being denied.

[Bunty]

Intimidated by who?

I don't have anybody in mind, just people in general, like liquor store owners, who feel their profits would be harmed if grocery stores could start selling wine. On the other hand, Oklahomans For Modern Laws might have seen they could never raise enough money to hire enough signature takers and gave up. It would be nice if a real rich person with a million or two to blow would take over the petition process, but maybe he or she would see it as courting with too much trouble.

[Sonny_Crockett]

I was like a kid at Christmas when I went to a Redhawks game this summer and found out they sold PBR. Now if only Chesapeake Arena sold PBR instead of that lame ass Bud Light/Coors Light/Lite Beer from Miller.....

[bille]

Well, tasting rooms are opening soon. Friday the new tasting laws go into effect.

Good beer doesn't need cold storage once the brewing/fermenting process is done (IMO).

I agree. I have European friends who actually say if a beer is undrinkable at room temperature or slightly cooler, then its bad beer. If you think about it, beer has been around and perfected as an art for thousands of years but refrigeration has only been widely available for about a century, if even that long.

Like opinions, 'good' beer is very subjective as you surely know. That
said, I'm VERY glad you guys bring this up. I love talking the merits of
refrigeration and why I think it's important. In fact I was just having
this conversation earlier with another group local craft beer guys. Without
going insanely deep I'll just reference a couple of good resources that
discuss staling in case you are interested in learning more or think I may
be talking out of my ass:


Cellaring FAQ | BeerTrading.org Community

Oxidation and Staling | beer sensory science

And probably the most complete resource I have found discussing staling is
"The chemistry of beer aging - a critical review"

Now, with that out of the way, simply put, the warmer a beer is the faster
it will develop some staling properties. Granted all beers will change the
warmer they are stored, not all change for the better (again better usually
being subjective). What is known is that for every 10*C staling occurs
twice as fast. That number is extremely important when discussing beers that
should be drunk fresh, specifically IPAs, but also other "light" beers that
don't have some kind of preserving ingredient be it copious amounts of hops,
dark roasted grains, and/or a higher ABV. Beers fermented with traditional
Hefe yeast are prone to short shelf lives as well. As an example, storing
beers at 68*F, those beers would stale roughly four times quicker than beer
stored near freezing.

That said, you don't have to take my word, or the word of those in the
references I posted. Do an experiment for yourself with a beer stored near
freezing, one at 'cellar temps, one at room temp, and if you're feeling
frisky, one stored in your garage or attic, and do a side by side and see if
you notice a difference. I bet you'd be surprised!

Just because refrigeration is relatively new in the game doesn't mean it
isn't extremely important.

I get the same laugh we beers advertise "born on dates" and tout freshness. Good/proper beers should improve with age. There's even a major vintage beer market.

Beer flavored malt beverages on the other hand...

"born on dates" is a great tool in determining what you have, it shows
variances in batch to batch and ultimately lets you know if you've come
across a bad batch or something that's just old product. Personally I find
packaged dates to be very important, unfortunately many brewers don't have
the means or the resources to include this on all their offerings.

[bchris02]

Like opinions, 'good' beer is very subjective as you surely know. That
said, I'm VERY glad you guys bring this up. I love talking the merits of
refrigeration and why I think it's important. In fact I was just having
this conversation earlier with another group local craft beer guys. Without
going insanely deep I'll just reference a couple of good resources that
discuss staling in case you are interested in learning more or think I may
be talking out of my ass:


Cellaring FAQ | BeerTrading.org Community

Oxidation and Staling | beer sensory science

And probably the most complete resource I have found discussing staling is
"The chemistry of beer aging - a critical review"

Now, with that out of the way, simply put, the warmer a beer is the faster
it will develop some staling properties. Granted all beers will change the
warmer they are stored, not all change for the better (again better usually
being subjective). What is known is that for every 10*C staling occurs
twice as fast. That number is extremely important when discussing beers that
should be drunk fresh, specifically IPAs, but also other "light" beers that
don't have some kind of preserving ingredient be it copious amounts of hops,
dark roasted grains, and/or a higher ABV. Beers fermented with traditional
Hefe yeast are prone to short shelf lives as well. As an example, storing
beers at 68*F, those beers would stale roughly four times quicker than beer
stored near freezing.

That said, you don't have to take my word, or the word of those in the
references I posted. Do an experiment for yourself with a beer stored near
freezing, one at 'cellar temps, one at room temp, and if you're feeling
frisky, one stored in your garage or attic, and do a side by side and see if
you notice a difference. I bet you'd be surprised!

Just because refrigeration is relatively new in the game doesn't mean it
isn't extremely important.





"born on dates" is a great tool in determining what you have, it shows
variances in batch to batch and ultimately lets you know if you've come
across a bad batch or something that's just old product. Personally I find
packaged dates to be very important, unfortunately many brewers don't have
the means or the resources to include this on all their offerings.

This is why I think being able to sell and store cold beer in Oklahoma should be legalized. It effects the quality of the products we can get here. It would be awesome to be able to get New Belguim beers, which can be sold in Oklahoma but isn't due to the refrigeration laws. When I moved here from Charlotte, I noticed that beers I was used to tasted slightly different. Not really a bad taste, but you could tell a difference. I don't buy the excuse that the liquor store owners don't want to have to spend money on refrigeration. After all, they will have the choice to do so or not and let the market decide. The reason cold beer can't be sold here is religious groups and especially MADD groups who want to protect people from downing a six-pack outside the liquor store in their car. If there is one thing that makes our laws worse than most states its this. Not even Utah, that for the most part has stricter laws than Oklahoma, requires beer sold at room temperature.

[SouthsideSooner]

Just to give a different perspective on the importance of refrigeration... all the beer shipped in to the U.S. from Europe comes in in unrefrigerated shipping containers... all the fine beers from Belgium, Germany, Ireland, England, etc. all comes in to the U.S. unrefrigerated...

[bluedogok]

Yes. I don't remember exactly when it was changed. I think that it happened when they raised the drinking age to 21. 1990?

That was October of 1983.....when I was 19 although it wasn't enforced all that strictly at the time.

The hours changed when liquor by the drink replaced liquor by the wink, and ABLE came about. I believe it was in the early-mid 80's.

That is probably correct, seem to remember it happening about the same time. I remember the vote on the issue.

Quick question (non-rhetorical, no snark involved, honest question): Has ABLE ever done anything actually worth doing?

(other than generating the occasional headline about one boneheaded move or another that provides the opportunity to scratch one's head wondering WTF . . . sort of like a logic problem.)

Ummm......No.....none at all. Their counterparts in Texas (TABC) are just about as worthless.

[bille]

Just to give a different perspective on the importance of refrigeration... all the beer shipped in to the U.S. from Europe comes in in unrefrigerated shipping containers... all the fine beers from Belgium, Germany, Ireland, England, etc. all comes in to the U.S. unrefrigerated...

True that. Go grab a pils, IPA, or hefe and do a side by side with a GOOD, fresh, American example of that style.

I'm not saying that we can't/don't get good import beers from those guys but you can't argue with the facts that those beers have been on a rough journey for many months. I put it this way, ask any local brewer how they'd feel about shipping there products that are meant drunk fresh overseas.

[Cid]

Hey folks,

Coming out of lurker mode to raise this thread from the dead!

This issue is very near and dear to my heart. I've been researching what it would take to open a brewpub in Oklahoma City. Obviously my findings have been very eye-opening. Of the things I've found, many of which have been touched on in this thread:

You can't brew strong beer and sell it in the same facility, as in a restaurant.
If you brew strong beer, it MUST be sold to a distributor before it is sold to the general public.

These two things are a real drag on business in Oklahoma. Right now Colorado is going through a HUGE brewpub boom and they are collecting millions of dollars in beer production taxes, as well as alcohol sales taxes. Oklahoma's current tax rate is 5 TIMES Colorado's beer manufacturing tax rate. Imagine the millions the state could be generating if they would just let brewpubs brew strong beer (above 3.2%ABW) and sell it in their own restaurants!

Some of you might say, "well Bricktown Brewery, Pete's Place, and Belle Isle do that".

Well, no. No, they don't. None of the beer that they brew in-house and serve in the restaurant is strong beer. It's all 3.2%ABW or less. It's the dirty little secret that none of them talk about. Go ahead and check for yourself. You'll notice none of them mention the alcohol content on their beer menus.

What a ripoff for the Oklahoma consumer.

The really befuddling thing is that Oklahoma wine producers were able to get that part of the law changed. How that transpired without tacking on the word "...and breweries" to the law is completely beyond me.

You might've been to Urban Wineworks (http://www.urbanww.com/) over in the Plaza District. It's a great place, with a great atmosphere. And it most certainly wouldn't exist if people couldn't drink the wine right there in the establishment, and be served some delicious food with it. All made possible by that one minor change to the law.

Oklahomans deserve better. They deserve choice. And they deserve better quality. It's good for business and has ABSOLUTELY NO IMPACT on availability of alcohol to minors. None.

PLEASE - Let's get something started to get this ONE LITTLE PIECE of the law changed!

[bchris02]

Unfortunately the religious right and MADD groups will do anything possible to limit the public's access to the demon water. They don't care about consistency, just that some law may prevent people from drinking.

I agree that brewpubs should be allowed to sell beer above 3.2% ABV. If wineries were able to get it changed without a constitutional amendment, then brewpubs should be able to as well.

[BoulderSooner]

Unfortunately the religious right and MADD groups will do anything possible to limit the public's access to the demon water. They don't care about consistency, just that some law may prevent people from drinking.

I agree that brewpubs should be allowed to sell beer above 3.2% ABV. If wineries were able to get it changed without a constitutional amendment, then brewpubs should be able to as well.

It has bunch more to do with the liquor lobby

[jerrywall]

What liquor lobby? There really isn't one in Oklahoma.

[bchris02]

What liquor lobby? There really isn't one in Oklahoma.

I agree. Is there proof of a liquor lobby fighting to keep things the way they are? There is a very active anti-alcohol religious right and MADD groups with powerful lobbyists behind them. The biggest reason is probably voter apathy. If Oklahomans were passionate about liquor law reform it probably wouldn't be so difficult to get the number of signatures needed to get it on the ballot.

[BoulderSooner]

What liquor lobby? There really isn't one in Oklahoma.

I agree. Is there proof of a liquor lobby fighting to keep things the way they are? There is a very active anti-alcohol religious right and MADD groups with powerful lobbyists behind them. The biggest reason is probably voter apathy. If Oklahomans were passionate about liquor law reform it probably wouldn't be so difficult to get the number of signatures needed to get it on the ballot.

So uninformed

[jerrywall]

So uninformed

So provide information or evidence to the contrary.

[Cid]

"I agree. Is there proof of a liquor lobby fighting to keep things the way they are? There is a very active anti-alcohol religious right and MADD groups with powerful lobbyists behind them. The biggest reason is probably voter apathy. If Oklahomans were passionate about liquor law reform it probably wouldn't be so difficult to get the number of signatures needed to get it on the ballot."

bchris02 -
If this is true, I don't think it really matters or has a big enough impact to prevent making my proposed change to the law.

There is NO fundamental difference in what the Oklahoma wineries were able to accomplish.

If they can do it, surely the beer consumers can do it.

Like I said in my original post - it befuddles me how they were able to get it done without breweries going along for the ride.

To be constructive, what we should really be doing is talking to the OK wine lobbies and learn more about the circumstances they went through and how they were able to recruit enough support. OK brewery interests likely have a lot they could learn.

Can anyone here point me in the direction of some of the people that were actually involved in helping get those laws changed? Yes, I'm serious.

[jerrywall]

The breweries weren't really around and active when the winery laws changed. Also, folks from the tourism department were actively involved in getting the laws changed for wineries. It wasn't quick or easy. The breweries are running about 10 years behind, and changes are coming in time.

[onthestrip]

So uninformed

Since Boulder never explains himself, Ill try. There are like 2 or 3 alcohol distributors in the state (the Naifeh's being one) that distribute every drop of liquor, wine and high point beer. They dont want to change because they are printing money right now. They have a built in, no competition advantage and would like to keep it that way. You probably wont see them say anything publicly about it but they are a huge force in keeping the status quo. You can be sure they are pulling the strings behind the scenes.

Also, the liquor store owners of Oklahoma have publicly lobbied for no change, especially the wine and high pt beer in grocery store thing.

[Cid]

The breweries weren't really around and active when the winery laws changed. Also, folks from the tourism department were actively involved in getting the laws changed for wineries. It wasn't quick or easy. The breweries are running about 10 years behind, and changes are coming in time.

?? Bricktown Brewery has been a staple in Bricktown for at least 10 years. Belle Isle Brewery has also been around for many years. Pete's Place literally goes back decades. The winery laws changed to be more OK-winery friendly in 2007/2008.

Since Boulder never explains himself, Ill try. There are like 2 or 3 alcohol distributors in the state (the Naifeh's being one) that distribute every drop of liquor, wine and high point beer. They dont want to change because they are printing money right now. They have a built in, no competition advantage and would like to keep it that way. You probably wont see them say anything publicly about it but they are a huge force in keeping the status quo. You can be sure they are pulling the strings behind the scenes.

Also, the liquor store owners of Oklahoma have publicly lobbied for no change, especially the wine and high pt beer in grocery store thing.

All of this may or may not be true, but to bring this back to the topic I'm advocating - WHICH IS TO ALLOW BREWERIES TO SERVE STRONG BEER IN THEIR OWN RESTAURANTS - those institutions have the same at stake with wine as they do with beer. Yet, OK winemakers were successful in getting the law changed.

Beer brewers of Oklahoma - let's work together to make this minor, but important, change to the laws happen!

[jerrywall]

Since Boulder never explains himself, Ill try. There are like 2 or 3 alcohol distributors in the state (the Naifeh's being one) that distribute every drop of liquor, wine and high point beer. They dont want to change because they are printing money right now. They have a built in, no competition advantage and would like to keep it that way. You probably wont see them say anything publicly about it but they are a huge force in keeping the status quo. You can be sure they are pulling the strings behind the scenes.

Also, the liquor store owners of Oklahoma have publicly lobbied for no change, especially the wine and high pt beer in grocery store thing.

You waaaaaaaay overestimate the power the 3 distributors have. And even more so on the liquor store owners, which have pretty much no money, and haven't lobbied or argued against this change at all. They do argue for change, and yes, they're against grocery liquor, but they're pretty limited on what they push for and what they try to get passed or keep the same.

[jerrywall]

If you believe in some sort of all powerful liquor lobby, I've got something to tell you about Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny.