So much for the Earth and the universe is between 6,000 and 10,000 years old

[td25er]

How do you know if they went to hell or not?

They didn't accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

[Chadanth]

Who out numbers who? Those that believe in a creator or those that believe only in science? The later is a very small minority in this discussion.

Likely because this state is religiously conservative. Have this argument in New York or Europe and the "popularity" will reverse. Arguing that an idea is correct because it's popular is foolish, a great many ideas weren't popular at first but proven correct eventually. People hold on to bad ideas long after they've outlived their usefulness.

[kelroy55]

They didn't accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

So they are going to hell because they've never heard of Jesus? Sure glad god loves them.

[Dubya61]

Lol. Ammunition? really? It's a very straight foreword question. It's sad how Christians always feel like the victims. Always mistreated and defensive.

So you're saying you'd go to OKC Talk and ask honest questions for spiritual or philosophical advice, medical advice, legal advice and / or financial advice? I'd say a genuinely interested person in answers about any of those topic should find their way to a book store or professional.
I'm no victim, by the way. Just not interested in jumping into an argument that is clearly unwinnable (from either side).
It's sad how so many haters can't resist the chance to mock those they don't agree with. Always obstreperous, aggressive and closed-minded.

[Just the facts]

It's sad how so many haters can't resist the chance to mock those they don't agree with. Always obstreperous, aggressive and closed-minded.

To believe in something you can't see, smell, touch, hear, or taste in my opinion requires the most open mind of all. Prove it - they say. We can't prove it, that is why it is called faith. Funny how those who preach open-mindedness have no actual interest in doing it themselves.

We can't measure speed without comparing it to something at a different speed, but that doesn't mean we aren't moving (at least according to Einstein's 1st postulate). In other words, we can't prove God exists while being in a world where God exists.

And with those comments in mind, I will bow back out of the unwinnable debate.

[Garin]

[QUOTE=Chadanth;721168]Likely because this state is religiously conservative. Have this argument in New York or Europe and the "popularity" will reverse. Arguing that an idea is correct because it's popular is foolish, a great many ideas weren't popular at first but proven correct eventually. People hold on to bad ideas long after they've outlived their usefulness

Wrong answer! Christians and Muslims both believe in a creator " God" so I'm pretty sure the science community is the small minority.

[Dubya61]

Likely because this state is religiously conservative. Have this argument in New York or Europe and the "popularity" will reverse. Arguing that an idea is correct because it's popular is foolish, a great many ideas weren't popular at first but proven correct eventually. People hold on to bad ideas long after they've outlived their usefulness

Wrong answer! Christians and Muslims both believe in a creator " God" so I'm pretty sure the science community is the small minority.

I think its wrong to say that you must be either a faith believer OR a science guy. Sure, there are those who are one OR the other, but I'll bet that there are boat loads of those who have a faith in a creator and believe that science is a worthwhile pursuit. The scientific method is always a good method to use in many pursuits, in fact.

[Chadanth]

[QUOTE=Garin;721229]

Likely because this state is religiously conservative. Have this argument in New York or Europe and the "popularity" will reverse. Arguing that an idea is correct because it's popular is foolish, a great many ideas weren't popular at first but proven correct eventually. People hold on to bad ideas long after they've outlived their usefulness

Wrong answer! Christians and Muslims both believe in a creator " God" so I'm pretty sure the science community is the small minority.

Again, incorrect.

Evolution Less Accepted in U.S. Than Other Western Countries, Study Finds

Why doesn't America believe in evolution? - life - 20 August 2006 - New Scientist

I can find dozens more, though it's a waste of time. I also didn't mention Muslims, not that you would probably consider them progressive or anything; I cited Europe and New York (just as an example of a state that isn't in the bottom 5 in education). Again. the US is pretty far behind in this, compared to Europe and Japan. And we wonder why we're lagging in science and research... I'm sure it has nothing to do with backwards attitudes toward science being pushed here.

[Chadanth]

I think its wrong to say that you must be either a faith believer OR a science guy. Sure, there are those who are one OR the other, but I'll bet that there are boat loads of those who have a faith in a creator and believe that science is a worthwhile pursuit. The scientific method is always a good method to use in many pursuits, in fact.

Even the catholic church has said that they don't consider evolution and faith to be exclusive. They're not teaching young earth literalism.

[venture]

Even the catholic church has said that they don't consider evolution and faith to be exclusive. They're not teaching young earth literalism.

That's the thing I find most interesting. I had a Catholic education from pre-school through 12th grade. Science class taught evolution. We then had religion/theology class for creationism among other topics. There definitely wasn't this significant divide or push to have one taught over the other. My biology teacher freshman year was even a devout Jesuit priest for decades and never uttered creationism once.

People always claim private education is better than a public school. In my experience, the private experience was void of all this BS you see being forced into public education. It is sad when schools ran by the diocese and Jesuits understand the importance of not trying to trump one over the other, but elected nutjobs feel a non-religious institution must include religious-based teaching.

[okcboomer]

So you're saying you'd go to OKC Talk and ask honest questions for spiritual or philosophical advice, medical advice, legal advice and / or financial advice? I'd say a genuinely interested person in answers about any of those topic should find their way to a book store or professional.
I'm no victim, by the way. Just not interested in jumping into an argument that is clearly unwinnable (from either side).
It's sad how so many haters can't resist the chance to mock those they don't agree with. Always obstreperous, aggressive and closed-minded.

Holy crap man, what in the hell are you talking about? I simply ask the believers a question. Are we not allowed to ask a question here at okctalk? Again, do you believe god created f5 tornadoes that produce death and destruction or does he only create the good things?

[kelroy55]

I think its wrong to say that you must be either a faith believer OR a science guy. Sure, there are those who are one OR the other, but I'll bet that there are boat loads of those who have a faith in a creator and believe that science is a worthwhile pursuit. The scientific method is always a good method to use in many pursuits, in fact.

I'm a firm believer you can have both. I have faith there's something out there that's greater than us but I don't believe it's one all powerful being that tossed down 10 rules for us to follow and flooded the earth. I think a lot of early religion was started to keep the uneducated masses in line. If you think about it God's got a great gig going on. If things are good it's God's blessing and if bad things happen it's God's Will. Why are there all these million dollar churches when Jesus preached against that kind of wealth? oh yeah, God's Will they have a multi million dollar church and salary for the preacher. I also see a lot of people using the Bible as set in stone on issues like being gay but ignore all the other parts they don't want to bring up because it goes against what they are doing.

I'll keep my faith but I choose to put most of it into science.

[Just the facts]

Holy crap man, what in the hell are you talking about? I simply ask the believers a question. Are we not allowed to ask a question here at okctalk? Again, do you believe god created f5 tornadoes that produce death and destruction or does he only create the good things?

I'm not sure about your question. Are you asking if God specifically made the tornadoes that hit Moore, or if the laws of nature created by God conspired to form the tornadoes that killed people in Moore?

[kelroy55]

I'm not sure about your question. Are you asking if God specifically made the tornadoes that hit Moore, or if the laws of nature created by God conspired to form the tornadoes that killed people in Moore?

If God is all powerful and knowing aren't those two the same? He/she knew they were forming and going to kill people didn't he/she?

[okcboomer]

I'm not sure about your question. Are you asking if God specifically made the tornadoes that hit Moore, or if the laws of nature created by God conspired to form the tornadoes that killed people in Moore?

Did he create the tornado that hit Moore like he created the nice beautiful weather on other days?

[CaptDave]

Who out numbers who? Those that believe in a creator or those that believe only in science? The later is a very small minority in this discussion.

Irrelevant - doesn't matter who outnumbers whom. There was a time where those who believed the Earth was flat vastly outnumbered those who thought otherwise.

[Just the facts]

Did he create the tornado that hit Moore like he created the nice beautiful weather on other days?

The answer to that is no then. He did create the universe and everything and set it in motion, but men (and probably a woman or two) built the town where they did. Some days are nice and some days aren't. I often hear false teachers say "Group X is being punished for reason Y". We know that doesn't happen because that would require God to judge people, and we know there is only going to be one judgment and it hasn't happened yet.

God promised a safe landing, not a smooth ride. Of course, if you live life the way you are instructed it can definitely be a pleasant ride. Likewise, you can have a pleasurable life not living the way God instructed, but that landing is going to be a doozy.

[okcboomer]

The answer to that is no then. He did create the universe and everything and set it in motion, but men (and probably a woman or two) built the town where they did. Some days are nice and some days aren't. I often hear false teachers say "Group X is being punished for reason Y". We know that doesn't happen because that would require God to judge people, and we know there is only going to be one judgment and it hasn't happened yet.

God promised a safe landing, not a smooth ride. Of course, if you live life the way you are instructed it can definitely be a pleasant ride. Likewise, you can have a pleasurable life not living the way God instructed, but that landing is going to be a doozy.

Thank you for your answer. Very interesting.

[Dubya61]

Holy crap man, what in the hell are you talking about?

Apparently, you've lost the bubble on what I'm talking about. Here's a recapitulation.

I find it odd that when there is a beautiful morning then god made it........but the f5 tornado that causes tremendous death and destruction? Not a chance.

So god made the f5 tornado?

So god allowed someone to set down an f5 tornado that killed people? Who is it he allowed to do such a thing?

So why exactly is it ok to mock and denigrate what other people believe? ...

That last one wasn't directed at you, but you must have felt it was because you responded with:

Wait a second......... So asking a completely legit question is now mocking? Maybe you can answer for me since pp dodged the question. People will say god made the beautiful morning, but won't say he made the f5 tornado that kills people? Why is that?

I'll happily dodge the question, too, as I doubt its anything more than a fishing expedition for more ammunition. If you really wish to become educated about the nature of God, don't go to a chat forum. Study a well-reviewed text or discuss it with a reasonable, educated person in person, instead. If you wish to see the Old Testament Christian exposition of the concept, read the book of Job.

Lol. Ammunition? really? It's a very straight foreword question. It's sad how Christians always feel like the victims. Always mistreated and defensive.

So you're saying you'd go to OKC Talk and ask honest questions for spiritual or philosophical advice, medical advice, legal advice and / or financial advice? I'd say a genuinely interested person in answers about any of those topic should find their way to a book store or professional.
I'm no victim, by the way. Just not interested in jumping into an argument that is clearly unwinnable (from either side).
It's sad how so many haters can't resist the chance to mock those they don't agree with. Always obstreperous, aggressive and closed-minded.

Holy crap man, what in the hell are you talking about?

That's what I was talking about.

I simply ask the believers a question. Are we not allowed to ask a question here at okctalk?

Of course, you're allowed to ask questions. Ask all you want. My response is that you're going to the wrong source if you genuinely want an answer that you can trust.

Again, do you believe god created f5 tornadoes that produce death and destruction or does he only create the good things?

My response remains the same:

I'll happily dodge the question, too, as I doubt its anything more than a fishing expedition for more ammunition. If you really wish to become educated about the nature of God, don't go to a chat forum. Study a well-reviewed text or discuss it with a reasonable, educated person in person, instead. If you wish to see the Old Testament Christian exposition of the concept, read the book of Job.

[Garin]

When science can create life from thin air or even a blade of grass for that matter the idea of a God and creation is going to be my personal belief. And that shouldn't offend anyone its my belief.

[Garin]

Can you see the wind? So just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. How do you know there aren't scientists in the universe who have created life from thin air?

You can't see the wind you already know that. So you now believe in scientists that live out in the universe? Little green men also ? Not sure i can get on board with that.

[OKCisOK4me]

When science can create life from thin air or even a blade of grass for that matter the idea of a God and creation is going to be my personal belief. And that shouldn't offend anyone its my belief.

Other than what you read as text from The Bible, did you see God create man from the dirt of the earth? Did you see him take a man's rib and create a woman from that? At this rate, I may as well believe in Ancient Astronaut theory--aliens adding their genes into our DNA to create a more intelligent species. Also, science has created life....years ago. I don't doubt that man can clone man right now. We just don't because of the religious issues.

[kelroy55]

You can't see the wind you already know that. So you now believe in scientists that live out in the universe? Little green men also ? Not sure i can get on board with that.

I don't know if their little or green but to assume we are the only intelligent living being in this universe is ignorant and small minded at best.

[zookeeper]

No. But I believe based on all the observable evidence, it is more likely there are green scientists out there than a god.

I agree with this. Of course, I suppose then one *could* call the green scientists, "God" if they so choose. But versus the "God" of the Christian bible? Yes, far more likely to have green scientists in their lab 14 billion light years away.

[venture]

What would be the response if the creator was just another species from a distant galaxy or something?