We Have a Race for Governor

[soonerguru]

Joe Dorman, who has been working for years to get storm shelters in schools, has announced his exploratory run for Governor as a Democrat against Mary Fallin.

On paper, this looks like an uphill battle, but he is well positioned for this race: The people of Oklahoma wildly support his storm shelter issue, and Republican intransigence on this matter is well known. IMO he is the best possible candidate to run against Mary, who will have to defend herself not only on this common-sense issue, but also on the wackjob Janet Barresi, who is a probable loser against Freda Deskin and a major political liability.

Win or lose, Dorman will make this a race and will remind Oklahomans of the disaster of having 100% Republican governance. Here's hoping his "exploration" is affirmative and he moves forward, because Oklahomans deserve a choice.

Rep. Joe Dorman to explore run for governor | KFOR.com

[Jeepnokc]

Joe is a great guy and would be great for Oklahoma. As a State Rep, he spends a lot of time out with the citizens and has been very accessible. Look forward to hearing more on the issues.

[BoulderSooner]

The people of oklahoma would vote no on a 500 mil state bond storm shelter issue and this guy has very very little chance to win the governorship

And "disaster". Not so much

[Midtowner]

I don't understand the Barresi hate except that school districts don't like to be held accountable for failing at their jobs.

As for Governor, I'm in the "anyone but Fallin" camp, but fully expect to see Fallin win big on a faith/family/freedom y'all sort of campaign.

[LakeEffect]

The people of oklahoma would vote no on a 500 mil state bond storm shelter issue...

They would?

[tomokc]

I'd like to see storm shelters in schools, but the path to that reality goes through the bureaucracies of state government and education, is fraught with emotional arguments from the parents of children living and deceased, doesn't specifically address how existing schools would phase in shelter construction, and at half a billion dollars, will attract every shady contractor in this part of the country. But those questions come way down the road. The three immediate questions are:

1. Where does the money come from?
2. What is the source of repayment?
3. What is the cost of maintaining these shelters?

[HangryHippo]

The people of oklahoma would vote no on a 500 mil state bond storm shelter issue and this guy has very very little chance to win the governorship

And "disaster". Not so much

Per usual, your profound insight and thoughtful commentary is thoroughly appreciated.

[Bunty]

The people of oklahoma would vote no on a 500 mil state bond storm shelter issue and this guy has very very little chance to win the governorship

And "disaster". Not so much

You mean if Oklahomans feel that storm shelters are really a must for their school children, they will go to vote yes on a local bond issue to build them, just like they have to do when it's decided it's time to vote on replacing an old school with a new one?

[onthestrip]

First, Im really glad an notable Dem might put their hat in the ring. Sure he has a very uphill battle but I think he can hammer Fallin on a number of issues such as poor edu funding, state employee pay, justice reform inaction, and non expansion of medicaid. This is a couple hundred thousand people that Dorman could attract as voters.

I'd like to see storm shelters in schools, but the path to that reality goes through the bureaucracies of state government and education, is fraught with emotional arguments from the parents of children living and deceased, doesn't specifically address how existing schools would phase in shelter construction, and at half a billion dollars, will attract every shady contractor in this part of the country. But those questions come way down the road. The three immediate questions are:

1. Where does the money come from?
2. What is the source of repayment?
3. What is the cost of maintaining these shelters?

Regarding storm shelters...while it is a noble cause by Dorman, I think this is an issue best left locally. Let school districts, cities, counties or whatever decide on the need for shelters. That said, I have no idea whether it would pass or not in a statewide vote. And I wonder if spending $500million on actual education improvements wouldnt save more lives in the end..?

[jdross1982]

I don't understand the Barresi hate except that school districts don't like to be held accountable for failing at their jobs.

As for Governor, I'm in the "anyone but Fallin" camp, but fully expect to see Fallin win big on a faith/family/freedom y'all sort of campaign.

Midtowner - "I don't understand the Barresi hate except that school districts don't like to be held accountable for failing at their jobs."

Can you please explain to me how teachers dont like to be held accountable for their jobs?

Teachers for the most part want to be held accountable, they want to have performance raises and bonuses for excelling in the classroom. What teachers dont want is for a grade system that is not an accurate assessment of the jobs they are doing. Like it or not, Oklahoma has a wide diversity of students throughout the state and they have different backgrounds. There are teachers in OKCPS for example that have students who their familes just moved from Mexico and the child does not speak any english. These students if they do know some english, maybe only know a few letters in the alphabet. Yet these same students are judged the same as those who come from afluent backgrounds, who can afford tutors, who have two parents in the home at night to help them with their studies and make sure they are done.
Teachers want to be judged and held accountable by a system that acknowleges where a student is at the first of the year and compared to where they are at the end of the year. Instead, the system judges based on every student regardless of their background and says a 1st grader should be at 7 (1-10 scale) regardless if that student was a 1-2 to begin the year.

The complaint towards Janet Barresi is that she is a former dentist who has had no educational background and who put her kids through private school and yet she has chosen to demonize public schools across the state instead of reaching out to anyone in the educational system to come up with a plan that everyone can agree upon.

[warreng88]

Finally the Red Dirt Report stopped humping Ed Shadid's leg enough to talk about something else:

In exploring the idea of running for governor, Dorman would wage a campaign that focuses on all Oklahomans | Red Dirt Report

[SoonerDave]

They would?

Seems a safe presumption considering the group hired into get the petition filed couldn't even get enough signatures on the ballot to mandate a vote.

I hate this notion that seems to exist that implicitly believes businesses exist solely to be taxed to further other agendas. Translating the emotional devastation of lost children from last May into public policy and legislation without some degree of due diligence seems hardly a smart way to solve a problem. This initiative preys on emotions, not smart planning, for a certainly laudable objective, but we need to pursue that objective intelligently - not just "well, here's a tax, turn it back on, then sell some bonds. Poof!" It isn't that simple. There *has* to be fiscal sanity in the mix.

* Does the same kind of shelter plan work for every possible school?
* Can some existing schools be modified to incorporate shelters more cheaply than others by virtue of their age or design?
* Are some schools already slated for rebuild/replacement due to their age? If so, can tornado safety be incorporated into their design in new/creative ways? Have read about at least one school that was built somewhat into a "berm" that had natural tornado protection - and it was cheaper than a full "safe room" kindred structure.
* Are some schools in districts that can be consolidated into ones with newer facilities that already have safety features incorporated?
* Has any comprehensive study been done to assess the kinds of shelters that should be considered, their costs, and how to apply the various types to the various schools?

And here's another nugget - for all the millions we might be throwing at this, how many of those districts would rather have the same money in new textbooks, teacher salaries, repair funds, and supplies?

This is turning into the ultimate wife-beating question - if you dare suggest you oppose this particular proposal, you obviously hate children, which is ad-hominem at worst and unconstructive at best.

[jerrywall]

And there's a cold question that everyone ignores, because others will paint you as evil and hating the children...

What percentage of Oklahoma children have been injured/killed due to lack of shelters in schools?

.00000000000000000000000000000000000000001%?

[OKCretro]

I don't understand the Barresi hate except that school districts don't like to be held accountable for failing at their jobs.

As for Governor, I'm in the "anyone but Fallin" camp, but fully expect to see Fallin win big on a faith/family/freedom y'all sort of campaign.

better than Jerri askins "i promise I am not as liberal as the president campaign" what a joke

[LakeEffect]

Seems a safe presumption considering the group hired into get the petition filed couldn't even get enough signatures on the ballot to mandate a vote.

I hate this notion that seems to exist that implicitly believes businesses exist solely to be taxed to further other agendas. Translating the emotional devastation of lost children from last May into public policy and legislation without some degree of due diligence seems hardly a smart way to solve a problem. This initiative preys on emotions, not smart planning, for a certainly laudable objective, but we need to pursue that objective intelligently - not just "well, here's a tax, turn it back on, then sell some bonds. Poof!" It isn't that simple. There *has* to be fiscal sanity in the mix.

* Does the same kind of shelter plan work for every possible school?
* Can some existing schools be modified to incorporate shelters more cheaply than others by virtue of their age or design?
* Are some schools already slated for rebuild/replacement due to their age? If so, can tornado safety be incorporated into their design in new/creative ways? Have read about at least one school that was built somewhat into a "berm" that had natural tornado protection - and it was cheaper than a full "safe room" kindred structure.
* Are some schools in districts that can be consolidated into ones with newer facilities that already have safety features incorporated?
* Has any comprehensive study been done to assess the kinds of shelters that should be considered, their costs, and how to apply the various types to the various schools?

And here's another nugget - for all the millions we might be throwing at this, how many of those districts would rather have the same money in new textbooks, teacher salaries, repair funds, and supplies?

This is turning into the ultimate wife-beating question - if you dare suggest you oppose this particular proposal, you obviously hate children, which is ad-hominem at worst and unconstructive at best.

I think people would see through it as well, but I'm sick of people just stating things as fact. Builder needs to back up his statements.

[gjl]

Is the problem with poor performance in schools in Oklahoma really because of under funding?

[SoonerDave]

Midtowner - "I don't understand the Barresi hate except that school districts don't like to be held accountable for failing at their jobs."

Can you please explain to me how teachers dont like to be held accountable for their jobs?

Teachers for the most part want to be held accountable, they want to have performance raises and bonuses for excelling in the classroom. What teachers dont want is for a grade system that is not an accurate assessment of the jobs they are doing. Like it or not, Oklahoma has a wide diversity of students throughout the state and they have different backgrounds. There are teachers in OKCPS for example that have students who their familes just moved from Mexico and the child does not speak any english. These students if they do know some english, maybe only know a few letters in the alphabet. Yet these same students are judged the same as those who come from afluent backgrounds, who can afford tutors, who have two parents in the home at night to help them with their studies and make sure they are done.
Teachers want to be judged and held accountable by a system that acknowleges where a student is at the first of the year and compared to where they are at the end of the year. Instead, the system judges based on every student regardless of their background and says a 1st grader should be at 7 (1-10 scale) regardless if that student was a 1-2 to begin the year.

The complaint towards Janet Barresi is that she is a former dentist who has had no educational background and who put her kids through private school and yet she has chosen to demonize public schools across the state instead of reaching out to anyone in the educational system to come up with a plan that everyone can agree upon.

But here's my answer - when do taxpayers get to say "yeah, a student at a given age ought to perform at a given level?" When are taxpayers allowed to ask that question? If a student goes from a 1 to a 2, we're saying that's adequate? I will agree that blaming the teacher solely for not "hitting the 7" doesn't make sense, because that's the fault of the system but surely neither her nor her predecessor has really done anything to gut the infrastructure of public education and reinvent it such that the teachers are allowed to do the teaching. Our school systems need to get simpler, not more laden with PhD sophistry that doesn't appear to be serving our kids very well.

Perhaps Barresi isn't the answer - and I know the education lobby is aiming every possible nuclear device at her they can for their unbridled, writhing hatred of her - but since when did the powers that be decide that dentists were suddenly stupid? I hear this little aphorism all the time, "She's a dentist," as if that implies mouth-breathing, drooling moron,... to say nothing of the fact I'm delighted that we have someone in power that is outside the "conventional wisdom" of our oh-so-learned Education Establishment brethren that have had no small part in creating this mess right now. I had hoped she would aggressively push mandatory consolidation, but hasn't, and do something to fight the entrenched layers of bureaucracy, but she hasn't, but I sure don't want another stinking Sandy Garrett clone back in office.

[onthestrip]

better than Jerri askins "i promise I am not as liberal as the president campaign" what a joke

Huh? Either way, I sure wish we would have got a chance to see Jari Askins in action. We most likely have a couple hundred thousand extra people with affordable health insurance and maybe we wouldnt be giving away money to school testing companies and private prison groups.

Is the problem with poor performance in schools in Oklahoma really because of under funding?

Im sure its not helping. Take a look around the country and Im guessing the states that put more money towards edu are probably outperforming the others. And whats that saying, you get what you pay for? There are a host of issues why we perform terribly but money certainly is playing a huge factor.

[jerrywall]

That's a big thing to me. A lot of folks seem to be operating under some notion/lie that the education in Oklahoma was so great or on a great path during the past decades of Democratic control. 2 years into office people are upset that someone hasn't undone 20+ years of stagnation and failure? Especially considering the constant back fighting and sabotage that has happened by folks who are in place and entrenched thanks to those 20 years of failure.

And people love the "Dentist" thing, but ignore that Barressi has a degree in Education. She worked with special needs children in the public schools, and ran a summer clinic for them. Let's not even talk about her work establishing Independence Middle School (yeah, total failure there, huh?).

[BoulderSooner]

Huh? Either way, I sure wish we would have got a chance to see Jari Askins in action. We most likely have a couple hundred thousand extra people with affordable health insurance and maybe we wouldnt be giving away money to school testing companies and private prison groups.



Im sure its not helping. Take a look around the country and Im guessing the states that put more money towards edu are probably outperforming the others. And whats that saying, you get what you pay for? There are a host of issues why we perform terribly but money certainly is playing a huge factor.

More future unfunded liabilities No thanks

[SoonerDave]

Huh? Either way, I sure wish we would have got a chance to see Jari Askins in action. We most likely have a couple hundred thousand extra people with affordable health insurance and maybe we wouldnt be giving away money to school testing companies and private prison groups.

Im sure its not helping. Take a look around the country and Im guessing the states that put more money towards edu are probably outperforming the others. And whats that saying, you get what you pay for? There are a host of issues why we perform terribly but money certainly is playing a huge factor.[/QUOTE]

In fact, a reply to a similar discussion in a different thread pointed out an example of just the opposite - of two Wisconsin districts very similar in size, composition, income, etc, but one spent something on the order of 59% of its total budget on administrative/overhead, and had results statistically the same as the other that spent only 51% on admin/overhead.

Throwing money at education won't fix it. Throwing money hasn't fixed it in, what, five decades? Gutting the system, getting rid of the bureaucracies and bureaucrats that suck up the money and issue the fiats and re-empowering the teachers is what's required. But no one will ever do that. We get folks like you who say "just keep throwing money at it, and eventually it will get better." And constantly rationalize the practice by the quivering-voice mantra of, "it's for the children." People who want to throw money at the education system don't want to fix it. They want the status quo, because the status quo will always return the bad results allowing the same tired rhetoric of "throw more money at it." Why would anyone who benefits from the system ever be motivated to fix it, when its inherent system is a self-perpetuating waste machine?

Fixing education is the hard work no one wants to tackle. Teachers and the students in their charge are the ones that pay the price for our educational system.

[adaniel]

I let results speak for themselves when it comes to education in this state.

CNBC Best States for Business 2009 OK Education rank: 46

CNBC Best States for Business 2013 OK Education rank: 48

With the caveat this is a pretty simplistic view, OK has started from a low position and actually regressed. It really doesn't matter in regards to the governor's race, as Barriesi is likely to get bounced in the GOP primary. Her challenger Joy Hofmeister is already significantly outraising her. Most people I know who are for Barresi (and there aren't a lot) are usually voicing their support for a defensive crouch, which is never good.

Now as far as Dorman is concerned, fantastic guy who likely does not stand a chance. But Fallin cannot just cakewalk her way into reelection, IMO its bad for democracy. She is the type of candidate who would not win if this state was more politically balanced. Whereas people like TW Shannon have their group of dedicated fanboys, I can't really say Fallin has a dedicated base. If I am not mistaken, in 2010 with a dramatic state and national GOP victory she actually under performed compared to most OK Republican candidates. Alas, I think she will pull off reelection but stranger things have happened.

[Urbanized]

I've known Joe for a number of years. He's pretty much a centrist, and he's good people. That said, he definitely has an uphill battle in this state.

[Midtowner]

Can you please explain to me how teachers dont like to be held accountable for their jobs?

Teachers for the most part want to be held accountable, they want to have performance raises and bonuses for excelling in the classroom. What teachers dont want is for a grade system that is not an accurate assessment of the jobs they are doing. Like it or not, Oklahoma has a wide diversity of students throughout the state and they have different backgrounds.

You do realize that the grading system is a constant work in progress. That said, by "wide diversity of students," are you suggesting that some races do not learn as well as others? Or that poor children are incapable of mastering things middle class kids can do? That's demonstrably false.

There are teachers in OKCPS for example that have students who their familes just moved from Mexico and the child does not speak any english. These students if they do know some english, maybe only know a few letters in the alphabet. Yet these same students are judged the same as those who come from afluent backgrounds, who can afford tutors, who have two parents in the home at night to help them with their studies and make sure they are done.

And they should be judged by exactly the same standards. Otherwise, you are writing them off as unteachable because of surmountable challenges. Your example isn't an example, it's an excuse--and a crappy one.

Teachers want to be judged and held accountable by a system that acknowleges where a student is at the first of the year and compared to where they are at the end of the year. Instead, the system judges based on every student regardless of their background and says a 1st grader should be at 7 (1-10 scale) regardless if that student was a 1-2 to begin the year.

What teachers want is a system where we can continue to fail children solely because they have been failed in the past. That's unacceptable. The Dept. of Education has already mandated that children must be able to read before being promoted out of the 3rd grade. That's just one of many things and it's going to pay off huge.

The complaint towards Janet Barresi is that she is a former dentist who has had no educational background and who put her kids through private school and yet she has chosen to demonize public schools across the state instead of reaching out to anyone in the educational system to come up with a plan that everyone can agree upon.

And that's the single dumbest complaint anyone could have about her, mostly because it tells me you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

1) Her education background. Firstly, how is this even a thing? The State Superintendent of Schools sets policy for our 500+ school districts and oversees our whole educational system. The job is not remotely comparable to a district superintendent. They do totally different things. You're talking about CEO versus regional manager sorts of differences. Nothing in their job description is similar, so how is it you maintain that before being CEO of our school system for the entire state that being superintendent for a school district is valuable experience? The fact is that if you want experience, there is only one candidate on the ticket with any experience as the State Department of Education's CEO.

That's all well and good, but let me turn it up a notch.

She actually did have a ton of experience before her election. Before her election, she founded Independence Charter school and Belle Isle Enterprise. Here is an article going all the way back to 1998 discussing some of her involvement in Belle Isle Enterprise. Google is your friend. Facts matter.

School Board Holds Tight Rein Enterprise Schools Facing Issues | News OK

Further, she went on and founded Harding Charter Preparatory High School... you know, that school which admits students by lottery (not by selection as many seem to think for whatever reason), requires them to carry 100% AP course loads, has outstanding fine arts programs and I believe had the 2nd highest grade in the state (the first was the Elementary school at Carlton's Landing [a resort town at Lake Eufaula] with an enrollment of 12). And for many years, she chaired the boards or was on the boards of all of those schools. Charter schools are basically districts unto themselves, so in fact, she has a huge amount of experience with schools.

2) Her kids went to private school. Funny... I graduated from the same school they did and don't remember the tuition bill. At any rate, click on the link. That's one of her twin boys who played football for Edmond North and played a bit at OU. His twin brother played for Mike Stoops at Arizona.

Ben Barresi - College Football

Finally, I want to dispel this idiotic notion that we need to just abandon some kids because they are incapable of learning. I want you to direct your attention to U.S. Grant High School in Oklahoma City. Here's a place which shows that not only do we have a problem of bad teachers in our system, but it's also a money and resources thing. U.S. Grant was awarded a $5MM grant over 5 years. Here's the actual grant application (it's pretty detailed)

http://ok.gov/sde/sites/ok.gov.sde/f...GrantHSApp.pdf

In a nutshell, with those funds and with a plan, the entire old staff was laid off and asked to reapply for their jobs and all of the positions, including principal were opened up. With the new staff hired, intensive cultural classes and language classes were provided for the educators during the Summer (they were of course paid for their time). With language resources, a strong ESL (English as a Second Language) program and a new attitude where they now directly address the challenges these students came with, U.S. Grant has gone from what would have been an F three years ago to a strong B+ (89).

So when I hear these excuses of why kids can't be educated, it's bullcrap. All we have to do is come up with the cash and then really start holding these teachers responsible for their failures. There is no reason (except money) that this model can't be replicated elsewhere.

[jerrywall]

I let results speak for themselves when it comes to education in this state.

CNBC Best States for Business 2009 OK Education rank: 46

CNBC Best States for Business 2013 OK Education rank: 48

With the caveat this is a pretty simplistic view, OK has started from a low position and actually regressed. It really doesn't matter in regards to the governor's race, as Barriesi is likely to get bounced in the GOP primary. Her challenger Joy Hofmeister is already significantly outraising her.

These aren't really results though... they're rankings, which is something totally different. Additionally, these rankings are based on how often "Education" is mentioned in marketing materials. Nothing else. Not on metrics, results, nor facts. Just words of flyers. Really?