Kd's Restaurant / Legacy Grill

[bchris02]

Well first, what would be the point of building a canal if we just put up blank walls along it?
Second, Im not sure I saw anyone say that a patio should be the defining feature, only that it should have an actual canal side patio. I think early permitting plans had zero patio.
Lastly, there are much more than 5 temperate days a year that allow you to enjoy a patio. And on the many slightly warm/cold days, its quite easy to provide shade/space heaters. If you sweat uncontrollably when its 80 or shiver when its 60, you have tons of space inside to eat. The several of us like the option of dining al fresco

Yeah I completely agree. Most of Hogan's work, with the exception of this and the Centennial, completely ignore the canal. There is no point in even having the canal if you aren't going to build a unique experience that relates to it. Secondly, there is plenty of time when outdoor dining is still enjoyable despite not having the greatest climate in the nation. It's very popular in Dallas and they have hotter summers than OKC does.

[jccouger]

I thought my exaggeration would be obvious.. guess not. Hold one one second, I'll go count all the days over the last 5 years that fell between 65-80 degrees during dining hours with less then 5 mph wind and no precipitation and average them on a per yearly basis...

....

...

Okay, I only counted 3. :/

More then half of the discussion in this thread has been about the patio. That in it self leads me to believe some people here expect the patio to be the defining feature whether or not I can get an exact quote saying that, and guess what, I won't even bother to look for one.

The point of everything I said (and you guys can find points right? and not discuss individual exaggerated points like 5 year old would describing a movie) is that this place was made to be an upscale dining experience. "patio dining" is for a more relaxed, laid back setting. This place is not that. They even put in a patio despite not wanting too, and there are still people on here complaining about there not being enough space. If you don't like it, then don't eat there. I'm 100% positive Kd's will be a raging success with or without your business or patio dining.

P.S. Don't go around throwing "ignorant" remarks towards me either Warren. Even I can have a heated conversation without taking a ridiculous insult at somebody.

[jccouger]

The canal creates a a walkable median to and from places in a district. Just because its there doesn't mean it has to be the focus of the establishment.

Despite everything I've said, I'm glad there is a patio. But even after they put the patio in there was still constant bickering about it not being nice enough. Ugh.

[warreng88]

I thought my exaggeration would be obvious.. guess not. Hold one one second, I'll go count all the days over the last 5 years that fell between 65-80 degrees during dining hours with less then 5 mph wind and no precipitation and average them on a per yearly basis...

....

...

Okay, I only counted 3. :/

More then half of the discussion in this thread has been about the patio. That in it self leads me to believe some people here expect the patio to be the defining feature whether or not I can get an exact quote saying that, and guess what, I won't even bother to look for one.

The point of everything I said (and you guys can find points right? and not discuss individual exaggerated points like 5 year old would describing a movie) is that this place was made to be an upscale dining experience. "patio dining" is for a more relaxed, laid back setting. This place is not that. They even put in a patio despite not wanting too, and there are still people on here complaining about there not being enough space. If you don't like it, then don't eat there. I'm 100% positive Kd's will be a raging success with or without your business or patio dining.

P.S. Don't go around throwing "ignorant" remarks towards me either Warren. Even I can have a heated conversation without taking a ridiculous insult at somebody.

You can have an "upscale dining experience" and patio dining together. Look at urbanspoon and some of the upscale eateries on there. Cheever's, Redrock, Republic, Paseo Grill, Cafe do Brasil, Ranch Steakhouse, Ludivine, Cafe 501, Pearl's, Flint, West, I could keep going, but I won't. Most of these have pretty descent outdoor dining areas and are pretty upscale, restaurants. You can have both, especially on the canal.

PS, I never said you were ignorant, I said the comment was ignorant. You even stated it was an exaggeration, so that is fine.

[jccouger]

Ok, I was wrong about saying that patio dining is exclusive to a lower then high end class dining establishments. Though I still think the higher end you go on the scale, the less dining on a patio becomes desirable to the patrons.

I'd much rather eat inside Kd's after seeing these pictures and I consider myself more of a outside person in general. I don't have any problem with them having a patio, I have a problem with all the people talking down on this place for the SOLE REASON of them not having a patio that meets their unrealistic expectations.

[warreng88]

Ok, I was wrong about saying that patio dining is exclusive to a lower then high end class dining establishments. Though I still think the higher end you go on the scale, the less dining on a patio becomes desirable to the patrons.

I'd much rather eat inside Kd's after seeing these pictures and I consider myself more of a outside person in general. I don't have any problem with them having a patio, I have a problem with all the people talking down on this place for the SOLE REASON of them not having a patio that meets their unrealistic expectations.

I think people are excited about the restaurant's food and the interior, but think the exterior could be better, especially being one of the last large lots on the canal. 10 years ago, I don't think many people would have cared because we just wanted something, anything to go down there to give it more life. I do agree that the patio could interact better with the canal, much like Bourbon Street just a few hundred feet upstream, but it's not the end all, be all of this restaurant.

[dankrutka]

P.S. Don't go around throwing "ignorant" remarks towards me either Warren. Even I can have a heated conversation without taking a ridiculous insult at somebody.

Actually "ignorant" is not really an insult in my opinion. Ignorance just means lacking knowledge. We are all ignorant on specific topics. I am ignorant on many topics. Calling someone stupid is an insult. Calling someone ignorant means they lack knowledge on some specific topic. There are a lot of people who post on this board without knowledge on a topic and actually should be called out in that respect.

[warreng88]

Actually "ignorant" is not really an insult in my opinion. Ignorance just means lacking knowledge. We are all ignorant on specific topics. I am ignorant on many topics. Calling someone stupid is an insult. Calling someone ignorant means they lack knowledge on some specific topic. There are a lot of people who post on this board without knowledge on a topic and actually should be called out in that respect.

Thanks for the clarification. I admit that I am completely ignorant on how weather works or architecture. I use this site a lot of times to help my ignorance.

[bchris02]

The canal creates a a walkable median to and from places in a district. Just because its there doesn't mean it has to be the focus of the establishment.

Despite everything I've said, I'm glad there is a patio. But even after they put the patio in there was still constant bickering about it not being nice enough. Ugh.

Except most of Hogan's work is focused toward the surface parking rather than the canal as the median of access. I think the patio's importance in this restaurant is overemphasized simply because almost everything else Hogan has built down there would have been underwhelming even if built on Memorial Rd. People wanted something that interacts with the canal. KD's, while it doesn't have the perfect canal-side patio dining experience, is better than anything else Hogan has done.

[dankrutka]

Thanks for the clarification. I admit that I am completely ignorant on how weather works or architecture. I use this site a lot of times to help my ignorance.

I agree. I'm interested in urbanism, but pretty much everything I've learned about the topic has been from those with more knowledge than me on this site. I've been ignorant on many issues discussed in this forum, but I hope to keep learning more...

[BDP]

The canal creates a a walkable median to and from places in a district.

Actually, that's just what it has become in lower bricktown. That is not what was intended. Mainly because Hogan has largely ignored the canal, it is now just a median down there, instead of an integrated attraction. However, when the canal was pitched people were thinking more along the lines of this:



or this:




than a wall lined water ditch. Above Reno, it still can be and is getting closer, but it's taking a long time. Now, lower bricktown will never come close to that and that's a failure, imo, considering this was a public project to add value and attraction to an area and the developer ignored the very thing the community spent money on. It was not supposed to just be a median.

And the reality is that KD's place looks awesome and, after seeing the pictures of the inside, feels even more out of place than I thought it would. It's kind of an odd ball down there. But anyway, yes, any place built on the canal should NOT ignore the canal and if patios don't fit an establishment's business model, image, or target demographic, then it's simply a bad idea to put in on the canal. This is not like there was a waterway there that the city spruced up to facilitate development. It was completely dreamed up from scratch as a way to add value and to create an attraction. The truth is that by Hogan ignoring the canal the way he did, he has completely undermined the city's intent and vastly limited what the canal could do for the district.

[BDP]

KD's, while it doesn't have the perfect canal-side patio dining experience, is better than anything else Hogan has done.

Yep. Too bad it can't set a new trend down there.

[HangryHippo]

Actually, that's just what it has become in lower bricktown. That is not what was intended. Mainly because Hogan has largely ignored the canal, it is now just a median down there, instead of an integrated attraction. However, when the canal was pitched people were thinking more along the lines of this:



or this:




than a wall lined water ditch. Above Reno, it still can be and is getting closer, but it's taking a long time. Now, lower bricktown will never come close to that and that's a failure, imo, considering this was a public project to add value and attraction to an area and the developer ignored the very thing the community spent money on. It was not supposed to just be a median.

And the reality is that KD's place looks awesome and, after seeing the pictures of the inside, feels even more out of place than I thought it would. It's kind of an odd ball down there. But anyway, yes, any place built on the canal should NOT ignore the canal and if patios don't fit an establishment's business model, image, or target demographic, then it's simply a bad idea to put in on the canal. This is not like there was a waterway there that the city spruced up to facilitate development. It was completely dreamed up from scratch as a way to add value and to create an attraction. The truth is that by Hogan ignoring the canal the way he did, he has completely undermined the city's intent and vastly limited what the canal could do for the district.

Exactly this.

[PWitty]

First off, I think Kd's looks amazing.

Second, I have a question. I'm from KC, and have only started keeping up with OKC developments for about the last year and a half after I knew I would end up living here after graduation. So I don't know any of the past details about these projects or what was initially envisioned back when they were proposed. But if the canal was initially proposed to mirror SA's riverwalk (more canal interaction) more so than what it has become, then why in the world did whoever is responsible for real estate development along the canal ever agree to any designs that didn't center around having a fantastic canal interaction? I have seen a lot of people blame the developers, like Hogan, but I would imagine if designs were continually shot down until they proposed one with superb canal interaction then this would have never become a problem.

[BDP]

But if the canal was initially proposed to mirror SA's riverwalk (more canal interaction) more so than what it has become, then why in the world did whoever is responsible for real estate development along the canal ever agree to any designs that didn't center around having a fantastic canal interaction?.

Oh boy.

It's a crazy mix of lawsuits, incompetent oversight, and financing woes. It really wasn't just one thing. But the city did in fact offer incentives to Bass Pro to build a store in lower bricktown. That's kind of indicative of the type of leadership we had at the time and it very much set the tone for what below Reno could ever be.

Here's kind of a summary from Lackmeyer:

Developer will seek OK of plan for site in Oklahoma City's Lower Bricktown: early promises compared to actual development | News OK

[bchris02]

Yep. Too bad it can't set a new trend down there.

It could if Hogan would just sell the thing to another developer who could develop some of the canal-side surface parking. There is more surface parking bumped up to the edge of the canal than there is development.

First off, I think Kd's looks amazing.

Second, I have a question. I'm from KC, and have only started keeping up with OKC developments for about the last year and a half after I knew I would end up living here after graduation. So I don't know any of the past details about these projects or what was initially envisioned back when they were proposed. But if the canal was initially proposed to mirror SA's riverwalk (more canal interaction) more so than what it has become, then why in the world did whoever is responsible for real estate development along the canal ever agree to any designs that didn't center around having a fantastic canal interaction? I have seen a lot of people blame the developers, like Hogan, but I would imagine if designs were continually shot down until they proposed one with superb canal interaction then this would have never become a problem.

OKC has historically had extremely low standards for what is considered acceptable development. In the early 2000s, this city was so desperate for any downtown development that they pretty much accepted whatever came its way. The result has been, like so many other OKC projects prior to 2010, the absolute bare minimum and cheapest thing the developer could get away with. Allowing Bass Pro to build a standard, suburban style big box with surface parking facing the canal set the precedent and then the dominoes just fell. Fortunately, the standards here are slowly starting to increase. Luckily, the city made Hogan design KD's with at least some canal interaction (I don't believe ANY was originally proposed, not even an entrance facing it). That's a sign that people are fed up with the status quo and are demanding better. Unfortunately what could have been the crown jewel of downtown OKC has already been squandered and its going to take somebody with deep pockets and major vision to salvage it.

[dankrutka]

Now, lower bricktown will never come close to that and that's a failure, imo, considering this was a public project to add value and attraction to an area and the developer ignored the very thing the community spent money on. It was not supposed to just be a median... But anyway, yes, any place built on the canal should NOT ignore the canal and if patios don't fit an establishment's business model, image, or target demographic, then it's simply a bad idea to put in on the canal. This is not like there was a waterway there that the city spruced up to facilitate development. It was completely dreamed up from scratch as a way to add value and to create an attraction. The truth is that by Hogan ignoring the canal the way he did, he has completely undermined the city's intent and vastly limited what the canal could do for the district.

Thank you for taking the time to explain why Lower Bricktown severely misused taxpayer money and missed an opportunity to create something special. Considering what it should have been, it is an absolute disaster that took quite a bit of incompetence to come to fruition.

[bchris02]

Thank you for taking the time to explain why Lower Bricktown severely misused taxpayer money and missed an opportunity to create something special. Considering what it should have been, it is an absolute disaster that took quite a bit of incompetence to come to fruition.

I completely agree and I get angry every time I think about it. Especially considering the designer of Kansas City's Power and Light district ALMOST got to design Lower Bricktown. The P&L district is vastly superior to anything currently in OKC in my opinion. It isn't necessarily in terms of the venues in the district, but the sense of place it provides. What OKC is desperately lacking downtown is not specific amenities but acceptable placemaking.

Here is what was orignially promised by Hogan.

[PWitty]

Oh boy.

It's a crazy mix of lawsuits, incompetent oversight, and financing woes. It really wasn't just one thing. But the city did in fact offer incentives to Bass Pro to build a store in lower bricktown. That's kind of indicative of the type of leadership we had at the time and it very much set the tone for what below Reno could ever be.

Here's kind of a summary from Lackmeyer:

Developer will seek OK of plan for site in Oklahoma City's Lower Bricktown: early promises compared to actual development | News OK

That's interesting. I didn't know the designer of P&L made a bid to develop Lower Bricktown. I would be curious to see what kind of conceptual renderings he would have come up with for the area. I like P&L a lot but overall it has a very small footprint, especially compared to Lower Bricktown. His design style would have to be much different.

I don't know if I would go as far as saying P&L is vastly superior to anything in OKC. P&L is great but my only complaint is that it feels more like a single establishment, because of how it is constructed and it's smaller overall footprint, rather than a bunch of individual establishments that make it up. I don't know how to really explain it, but I don't get a feeling of uniqueness from any of the bars/restaurants. It kinda feels like a big amusement park where certain areas have a different theme, but you still feel like you're in the same place. Plus, it's ridiculous the amount of times you have to pay cover! My buddies and I usually stick to Westport or Waldo when I'm back home and save P&L for special occasions (Big 12 tourny, concert, etc.) because of how expensive everything there is.

Hanging out in P&L during the Big 12 Basketball Tournament is by far the most fun I've ever had at P&L though. I would encourage anyone who hasn't been to check that out.

Sorry for getting off topic

[bchris02]

That's interesting. I didn't know the designer of P&L made a bid to develop Lower Bricktown. I would be curious to see what kind of conceptual renderings he would have come up with for the area. I like P&L a lot but overall it has a very small footprint, especially compared to Lower Bricktown. His design style would have to be much different.

I don't know if I would go as far as saying P&L is vastly superior to anything in OKC. P&L is great but my only complaint is that it feels more like a single establishment, because of how it is constructed and it's smaller overall footprint, rather than a bunch of individual establishments that make it up. I don't know how to really explain it, but I don't get a feeling of uniqueness from any of the bars/restaurants. It kinda feels like a big amusement park where certain areas have a different theme, but you still feel like you're in the same place. Plus, it's ridiculous the amount of times you have to pay cover! My buddies and I usually stick to Westport or Waldo when I'm back home and save P&L for special occasions (Big 12 tourny, concert, etc.) because of how expensive everything there is.

Hanging out in P&L during the Big 12 Basketball Tournament is by far the most fun I've ever had at P&L though. I would encourage anyone who hasn't been to check that out.

Sorry for getting off topic

You are right that P&L lacks real uniqueness but its still cool nonetheless and better than Hogan's Lower Bricktown. It's very similar to 4th St Live in Louisville or even the Epicentre in Charlotte. I mean, what is Lower Bricktown other than Toby Keith's, now KD's, a suburban hotel, the Sonic HQ, Earl's BBQ, Cold Stone, the theater, and surface parking? That's hardly what I would call a "Bricktown Entertainment District." I think the Centennial is part of it and if so thats by far the best thing there. I would consider that an acceptable building but everything but that and KD's is absolute crap.

[PWitty]

You are right that P&L lacks real uniqueness but its still cool nonetheless...

I agree that it is still a cool development. I also probably take it for granted a little because I'm so used to it, but then again I think everybody is guilty of the "grass is greener" mindset about where they're from.

[soonerguru]

Tried it.

Atmosphere: Amazing (once they figured out how to operate their audio system). The decor is top notch. Elegant and comfortable. There's a soaring lighted chamber with wines that serves as a focal point. The bar area features a huge rectangular setting that would make a great place to enjoy a drink and a game -- or even to dine at the bar.

Food: Mediocre. FROZEN FRENCH FRIES. The floor manager said they have frozen French fries, because, you know, "costs." Let's just say this: there isn't a lot on the menu you can't find at any other Hal Smith joint, chicken fry, okra, meatloaf, middling BBQ, etc. Make no mistake, to the person who said this would be "Maryland-style Southern Cuisine," well, no. NO CRABCAKES ON THE MENU! When I asked about the "Maryland style," I was promptly corrected that, no, this is "Southern style" (and they kept pushing the fried green tomatoes, for which I've never carried a torch).

To be charitable, there were a few things on the menu that were quite good: I had some oysters, which were delish. The collared greens were excellent. The Caribbean slaw they serve with the catfish was good. The honey fried chicken was quite good. Other things were blah. I was somewhat surprised they have very little seafood on the menu. They have trout and catfish on the main menu, and a cold shellfish appetizer on the "Baller" menu. They did have a snapper special tonight but it didn't excite.

It's a great space but the food is all Hal Smithed up. If you like that kind of thing, Enjoy!


Overall, it's a weird place. The atmosphere is very cool and energetic, with a fabulous selection of wines and drinks, and very friendly and accommodating service, but the food menu is fairly pedestrian and uninteresting. With the right menu, however, this could be one of OKC's best dining destinations.

[Dustin]

Are you ####ing serious? Frozen fries? The manager told you that? I don't think he knows how cheap potatoes are and how easy it is to cut them yourself. He's actually wasting money buying them frozen.

I'm definitely gonna have to wait for more reviews before I hit up this place.

[Pete]

The have their menus up -- both main and 'baller' -- here:

Kd's Southern Cuisine

[soonerguru]

Follow up: I spoke to Joe, the GM (owner of Paseo Grill). I shared my thoughts and he said they are still tweaking the menu to get things going. It is a really fun place to go, but the food isn't particularly inspired. I trust that he will make changes to improve it. He's a great operator.