San Antonio | Deep In The Heart.

[josh]

That sounded like a knock on their expansion, but really it was a knock on our cost estimate for a new convention center...

I didn't take it as a knock, just clarifying why the expansion cost so much more.

[Bellaboo]

Houston, Dallas, Austin > SA - Skyline. A lot of peoples perceptions are formed from a visual distance.

[adaniel]

And I responded to your inaccurate answer.

Btw, what does a blog about people leaving San Antonio because of jobs have to do with anything pertaining to the question I asked. You could make the same blog post about every city or metro in this country, including Oklahoma City. Unless, no one ever leaves Oklahoma City for job reasons...

My question was about San Antonio having the same (or better) growth as the other boom towns but never mentioning. I guess sub-textually, I was using the question as a way to inform this board of what San Antonio has done and continues to do.

I feel like there's a bit of ignorance when it comes to San Antonio on this forum.

When you have a moment, read that blog article and the comments in its entirety. It had very little to do with people leaving San Antonio due to jobs. Rather, it described people leaving the area because they felt it was not a city that embraced young professionals and the "creative class" largely due to cultural factors and, among other things, large retiree population and a focus on tourism. I hate that term for the record, but that article is in line of some of the complaints I've heard about SA. Doesn't make it a horrible place, and retaining younger types is an uphill battle for most mid sized cities. Frankly, a lot of what was said in that could describe OKC prior to 2008.

I do think that SA has a ton of potential due to its unique culture and proximity to Austin's tech scene. And I have heard great things about the mayor there. I think you are getting a bit defensive, and maybe you should consider starting a new thread detailing SA's progress if you feel its not well represented.

[josh]

Houston, Dallas, Austin > SA - Skyline. A lot of peoples perceptions are formed from a visual distance.

And that's a fair point.

That's understandable.

The lack of an impressive (subjective) skyline downtown forming an opinion on a place is understandable. I get that.

Which is why I asked the question to in a way showcase what has been going on (booming in the 90s and 2000s and now) as well as the downtown and urban core of San Antonio.

The Pearl/Lower Broadway area is in the urban core and in the last year there have been nearly 1,000 residential units added to that area and another 1,000 proposed or under construction in the Pearl alone. To give you a reference of how big the urban core for San Antonio is, the Pearl/Lower Broadway area is the same distance from downtown as 23rd street is from downtown OKC.

Also, a major reason for the lack of high-rises in the downtown skyline is two fold. Extremely high price of downtown land and extremely cheap price of suburban land. Many of the people who post here have probably never been to San Antonio, but the suburban landscape is dotted with high rises and mid rises. USAA is HQ'd in one of the largest buildings in the country, but it's in the suburbs. If USAA decided build a new single building skyscraper HQ, it would be nearly the height of the Willis Tower in Chicago.

[bchris02]

San Antonio just suffers from being 4th fiddle in a very large state. It's no different than Sacramento, Fresno, or Bakersfield in California. If San Antonio was in New Mexico or Oklahoma it would be far and away top dog.

[josh]

When you have a moment, read that blog article and the comments in its entirety. It had very little to do with people leaving San Antonio due to jobs. Rather, it described people leaving the area because they felt it was not a city that embraced young professionals and the "creative class" largely due to cultural factors and, among other things, large retiree population and a focus on tourism.

Are you reading the same blog post? Not once in it are retirees or tourism mentioned. The only time that stuff gets brought up is in the comments.

Btw, Oklahoma City has a higher retirement population (65+) than San Antonio.

I hate that term for the record, but that article is in line of some of the complaints I've heard about SA. Doesn't make it a horrible place, and retaining younger types is an uphill battle for most mid sized cities. Frankly, a lot of what was said in that could describe OKC prior to 2008.

Sorry, let's be real here. It could describe OKC now, no offense.

Anyway, I'm not sure if you've ever seen the American Migration map done by Forbes.

It shows the population migration county by county. They feature the years 2005-2010. The blue represents a net gain in residents from that county. Red represents a net loss to to that county. The darker the color, the higher the difference in net gain/loss.

This is San Antonio in 2010.

This is Oklahoma in 2010.

Notice how much greater an area Bexar County (San Antonio) pulls than Oklahoma City. Also notice how Bexar pulls in people from the Pacific Northwest and Silicon Valley.

P.S. That blog post you keep using as a reference is almost two years old. Since then, the Pearl and Lower Broadway has exploded into a hip area with young professionals. As a small example, within the last year, a young couple from San Francisco bought a house in Government Hill, one block from Lower Broadway, and turned it into a bakery called Bakery Lorraine. It's gone on to gain national praise and recognition.

Then there's the Pearl itself. If you're not familiar with it, you should definitely check it out. It's a culinary haven. It's home to one of the three CIA schools. Almost a dozen independent restaurants and counting. A boutique hotel is under construction as well as a 10 story residential building.

[josh]

San Antonio just suffers from being 4th fiddle in a very large state. It's no different than Sacramento, Fresno, or Bakersfield in California. If San Antonio was in New Mexico or Oklahoma it would be far and away top dog.

In any California comparison, San Antonio is San Deigo. Without the beach and year round perfect weather. lol

[hoya]

In any California comparison, San Antonio is San Deigo. Without the beach and year round perfect weather. lol

That's like saying you're Jessica Simpson without the huge breasts and gorgeous face.

[josh]

That's like saying you're Jessica Simpson without the huge breasts and gorgeous face.

Then no comparison can work for any texas metro and california metro, because SD, LA, SF all coastline metros and no Texas metro has year round perfect weather.

[hoya]

Then no comparison can work for any texas metro and california metro, because SD, LA, SF all coastline metros and no Texas metro has year round perfect weather.

I will agree with you. Central Texas does not compare to Southern California in any way.

[josh]

Nowhere in Texas compares to California. However, the Hill Country in NW San Antonio and between SA and Bandera is probably the prettiest area of the state. Lost Maples is unmatched.

[PWitty]

So your reasoning is grounded in anecdotal evidence. Makes sense. As I said before, San Antonio had the second highest percentage for brain gain in 2012. It was actual a couple of decimals from being number one.

Between 2008 and 2011, San Antonio also ranked 2nd in the nation for brain gain.



That's not at all what I said.



Ah, so it comes out, the cause of the bias I seem to get from you? I guess Atlanta being nearly 60% black and New Orleans being over 60% black and Minneapolis being over 60% white are hurting those cities? Or is a majority population only a problem if the majority is olive skin? You let me know, because I don't think "the perception of being a very White or very black city hurts them" would have come out of your keyboards. So, why the exception for Hispanic majority?

What's your opinion of Miami? 64% Hispanic population. Is your opinion the same, it hurts them?

1. Anecdotal evidence? Well, KU is one of the largest universities outside of Texas in this part of the country, so I would consider where all of it's STEM graduates move for jobs to be a decent indicator of the opportunities for the creative class in those cities. And the fact is that almost all of the STEM graduates from KU who moved to Texas moved to either Houston or Dallas. I never said that meant that nobody else was moving to SA, I just said that is my experience.

2. Yes, that is exactly what you said. "I highly doubt that. Maybe on this forum but not in general or every day life across this country or the globe." On the Global Cities Index for 2010 Dallas is an Alpha city, Houston is a Beta city, and San Antonio is a Sufficiency city. So no, people from around the globe do not view SA on the same scale they view Dallas/Houston. I don't see why you refute that. There is nothing wrong with not being a global city like Dallas/Houston.

3. And of course you come out waving the race card because I said San Antonio is a Hispanic city. Say what you want, but there is no denying that San Antonio has a lot of Mexican/Spanish heritage. And say what you want about Atlanta, but Atlanta is almost unrivaled in the opportunities it offers to young professionals. Comparing those two cities makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. As for Miami, it has South Beach and all the perks that come with living in South Florida. Nowhere in my comment did I say that nobody wants to move to San Antonio because there's too many "olive skin" people. That's ridiculous. The other cities you brought up don't have the same perception because they have very diverse communities, whereas when I was in San Antonio it seemed heavily slanted towards Hispanic culture.

You can't ask for people's opinions and then shoot them down for not knowing as much about SA as you. You asked for my opinions based on my experiences and I gave them.

[Bellaboo]

I've been to San Antonio several times, but it's been a few years since i've been. Step son lives in Houston, so we go there about twice a year now.

[PWitty]

San Antonio just suffers from being 4th fiddle in a very large state. It's no different than Sacramento, Fresno, or Bakersfield in California. If San Antonio was in New Mexico or Oklahoma it would be far and away top dog.

This. That doesn't mean SA doesn't have tons of good things going for it.

[josh]

1. Anecdotal evidence? Well, KU is one of the largest universities outside of Texas in this part of the country, so I would consider where all of it's STEM graduates move for jobs to be a decent indicator of the opportunities for the creative class in those cities. And the fact is that almost all of the STEM graduates from KU who moved to Texas moved to either Houston or Dallas. I never said that meant that nobody else was moving to SA, I just said that is my experience.

You don't know every person who graduated from KU. Not even "almost" all of them. So how exactly can you make that claim? And obviously a higher percentage of them would move to a metro area three times the size of San Antonio. That's just percentages.

2. Yes, that is exactly what you said. "I highly doubt that. Maybe on this forum but not in general or every day life across this country or the globe." On the Global Cities Index for 2010 Dallas is an Alpha city, Houston is a Beta city, and San Antonio is a Sufficiency city. So no, people from around the globe do not view SA on the same scale they view Dallas/Houston. I don't see why you refute that. There is nothing wrong with not being a global city like Dallas/Houston.

That's based on GPD. My comment was in terms of perception, not economic prowess.

3. And of course you come out waving the race card because I said San Antonio is a Hispanic city. Say what you want, but there is no denying that San Antonio has a lot of Mexican/Spanish heritage. And say what you want about Atlanta, but Atlanta is almost unrivaled in the opportunities it offers to young professionals. Comparing those two cities makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. As for Miami, it has South Beach and all the perks that come with living in South Florida. Nowhere in my comment did I say that nobody wants to move to San Antonio because there's too many "olive skin" people. That's ridiculous. The other cities you brought up don't have the same perception because they have very diverse communities, whereas when I was in San Antonio it seemed heavily slanted towards Hispanic culture.

The fact that you even had to go there tells me all I need to know about you. What relevance does San Antonio's Mexican and Spanish (and German) heritage have to do with ANYTHING we're discussing? That'd be like me saying "Well, the perception of being a white cowboy town is why people across the country generally view OKC in a bad light." I doubt you or your fellow OKCians would be ok with me saying that.

[PWitty]

You don't know every person who graduated from KU. Not even "almost" all of them. So how exactly can you make that claim? And obviously a higher percentage of them would move to a metro area three times the size of San Antonio. That's just percentages.



That's based on GPD. My comment was in terms of perception, not economic prowess.



The fact that you even had to go there tells me all I need to know about you. What relevance does San Antonio's Mexican and Spanish (and German) heritage have to do with ANYTHING we're discussing? That'd be like me saying "Well, the perception of being a white cowboy town is why people across the country generally view OKC in a bad light." I doubt you or your fellow OKCians would be ok with me saying that.

1) Each individual school, engineering included, within KU releases employment data for the previous year's graduates and breaks employment down by company and by city. So no, I didn't know every single person in the engineering school. But I didn't need to for that kind of information.

3) Because that exact reason is why people from somewhere like NYC wouldn't jump for joy to move to a smaller city. NYC has an answer for literally everything you could want because it is so culturally diverse. That was my entire point. People view Dallas/Houston/Atlanta as very culturally rich areas for young professionals. There's something for everybody in those cities. All I was saying is that from my experience people generally don't view San Antonio as being as diverse. And if you decide that an opinion like that is enough to start making personal attacks on someone's character on an online forum than that tells me all I need to know about you as well.

[josh]

1) Each individual school, engineering included, within KU releases employment data for the previous year's graduates and breaks employment down by company and by city. So no, I didn't know every single person in the engineering school. But I didn't need to for that kind of information.

3) Because that exact reason is why people from somewhere like NYC wouldn't jump for joy to move to a smaller city. NYC has an answer for literally everything you could want because it is so culturally diverse. That was my entire point. People view Dallas/Houston/Atlanta as very culturally rich areas for young professionals. There's something for everybody in those cities. All I was saying is that from my experience people generally don't view San Antonio as being as diverse. And if you decide that an opinion like that is enough to start making personal attacks on someone's character on an online forum than that tells me all I need to know about you as well.

Diversity is a matter of subjectivity.

Someone going from New York City wouldn't find OKC diverse. Someone coming from Houston or even San Antonio wouldn't find OKC diverse.

Does that mean you also think OKC isn't diverse?

[PWitty]

Diversity is a matter of subjectivity.

Someone going from New York City wouldn't find OKC diverse. Someone coming from Houston or even San Antonio wouldn't find OKC diverse.

Does that mean you also think OKC isn't diverse?

Wow, troll much? What does OKC have to do with me saying SA isn't as diverse as Houston or Dallas? I don't think anyone is going to try and argue that OKC is as diverse as NYC.

Your initial question was why do people not give San Antonio as much pub as they give the other Texas cities (Dallas, Houston, Austin). You've gotten several responses. I'm done feeding the troll. I should've just gritted my teeth and stopped after my first response. This thread has taken enough of a detour.

[josh]

I'm trolling? I'm giving you examples of subjectivity. I said people coming from NYC, Houston or San Antonio wouldn't find OKC diverse. And I don't mean just racially or ethnically. But you probably find OKC diverse and someone coming from El Paso or Birmingham or Jacksonville might find OKC diverse. All I was trying to express was that diversity is relative to ones own subjectivity.

And again, my gripe and question was breed from the fact that factual, San Antonio's population and
economic growth has been on par with the other Texas metros. Yet never gets mentioned on this forum. That was it. You're the one who brought up the Hispanic population and heritage which made no sense.

[bchris02]

I'm trolling? I'm giving you examples of subjectivity. I said people coming from NYC, Houston or San Antonio wouldn't find OKC diverse. And I don't mean just racially or ethnically. But you probably find OKC diverse and someone coming from El Paso or Birmingham or Jacksonville might find OKC diverse. All I was trying to express was that diversity is relative to ones own subjectivity.

And again, my gripe and question was breed from the fact that factual, San Antonio's population and
economic growth has been on par with the other Texas metros. Yet never gets mentioned on this forum. That was it. You're the one who brought up the Hispanic population and heritage which made no sense.

I agree that subjectivity is everything. Somebody moving to OKC from Lawton would likely feel like they've hit the big, bustling city while somebody moving from Dallas could feel like they've moved to a small town.

And it isn't just on this forum that San Antonio doesn't get mentioned. It gets overlooked quite often, which is really quite sad. It's a great city in my opinion.

[Plutonic Panda]

…Not really an attack on Texas so much as an assent to reality…

And I've seen the pictures... I want to puke every time.

But why did the Pei Plan come around in the first place?

OKC wanted to reinvent itself, and in doing so it destroyed much of its history and amazing buildings it once had and made a huge mistake. That is really all I can tell you.

[josh]

I agree that subjectivity is everything. Somebody moving to OKC from Lawton would likely feel like they've hit the big, bustling city while somebody moving from Dallas could feel like they've moved to a small town.

And it isn't just on this forum that San Antonio doesn't get mentioned. It gets overlooked quite often, which is really quite sad. It's a great city in my opinion.

Thank you. This is a great reply. I am not here to troll or be argumentative. I did ask a question, and in all honesty it was more of a rhetorical question than a question that needed an answer. However, some of the answers to that question have stayed on point and within the context of the question I asked. Others, for whatever reason, have not been.

[Plutonic Panda]

Didn't OKC model it's Bricktown Canal off of the one in San Antonio?

San Antonio is a great city and I actually debated about putting that in front of Austin in my fav Texas towns, Dallas will always be number one for me though. The Sea World in SA is also by far the best Sea World I've ever been to.

San Antonio is a great place Josh, doesn't look like anyone here is saying otherwise, just pointing out facts and realities. Sounds like you live there? If so, awesome! You ought to consider making a thread for development there in the "other communities". We have one for Omaha, Lincoln, and now Spartan's city Cleveland; I'm sure a San Antonio would be welcomed. I'm impressed by everything going on there and kind of jealous. Hope everything goes well there!

[josh]

I might have to do that.

However, just simple correction. It's less realities and more opinion.

[hoya]

I'm trolling? I'm giving you examples of subjectivity. I said people coming from NYC, Houston or San Antonio wouldn't find OKC diverse. And I don't mean just racially or ethnically. But you probably find OKC diverse and someone coming from El Paso or Birmingham or Jacksonville might find OKC diverse. All I was trying to express was that diversity is relative to ones own subjectivity.

And again, my gripe and question was breed from the fact that factual, San Antonio's population and
economic growth has been on par with the other Texas metros. Yet never gets mentioned on this forum. That was it. You're the one who brought up the Hispanic population and heritage which made no sense.

Seriously dude, SanAntonioTalk.com. That's where you want to be. You are on the wrong forum.

You ask a totally subjective question. Moreover you ask a totally subjective question that can only end with you getting your feelings hurt. "Why don't people talk about San Antonio when they talk about all the great Texas cities? We're just as good as blah blah blah." That's like the ugly girl asking "you guys are flirting with all the cheerleaders, why don't you ask me out instead?"

San Antonio is home to the Alamo, a small building where a handful of white people were overrun by a horde of Mexicans. Nobody talks about San Antonio because everyone thinks its still that way. It's not hip and cool like Austin, it's not a sprawling metropolis heavily identified with Air and Space and oil like Houston. It didn't have it's own soap opera like Dallas. Instead it has a million Mexicans.

You asked why people don't talk about it? That's why. That's the perception. You can argue as much as you want. That's still the perception. And that's why no one talks about it.

Edit:

That came across just a little bit harsher than I intended it. San Antonio is probably a great place. Of course I went to college with a guy from San Antonio and he was a dick. But it's in that same situation that OKC is in. It's going to get very limited attention from people outside of its area. It is not sexy. It is not high profile. Oklahoma's equivalent to San Antonio is Lawton.