Cars = freedom, But For How Long?

[rezman]

Anyone ever see the movie "The Last Chase" ? ... 1981... .. It was about future United States where the only transportation that was available was public transportation and you could not own, or even possess a vehicle.

[hoya]

Anyone ever see the movie "The Last Chase" ? ... 1981... .. It was about future United States where the only transportation that was available was public transportation and you could not own, or even possess a vehicle.

Lee Majors was in it. Awesome movie.

[rezman]

Lee Majors was in it. Awesome movie.

And Burgess Meredith too....

[SoonerDave]

Well they aren't. In fact, yes, without taxpayers, you still ROWs. That's my point. The road network, improved or not, doesn't belong to the taxpayer.

The taxpayer is levied to make improvements, but those improvements aren't owned by you either. No more than the machines at Coke are if you buy a bottle of Coke. You're not putting down a payment for the roads. That's my point. It is semantics for sure but incredibly important semantics when we start throwing around words like "Freedom" and "free market" to discuss road construction and rural development.

Kinda opted until now not to get in on this thread, but I'm at least going to chime in a bit here

Don't think the Coke machine analogy is entirely apt here. First, the vendor wants to put those machines where he's going to make money, and rarely is the person hosting the machine paying for it. Its often the other way around - the vendor offers a cut of the proceeds to the person providing the vending space. Clearly, the guy buying the Coke has no fiscal relationship to the vending machine per se. The only "service" a road provides is, well, "access," and as we're not (yet) tolling all the roads, we're obviously not paying literally to get on that road, so we're not directly "paying for the product." Guy buys a coke, he gets it, he walks away. But the taxpaying (and even non-taxpaying driver, if such a person is primarily only theoretical) driver has ad-hoc access to the road (excepting tolled private state highways, etc., which I assume is a given in the discussion).

The point is that if the monies I remand to the government that are used for highways, it isn't "purely for the soda in the machine" because if I don't put in fifty cents, I don't get a soda. But that doesn't hold true for highways. Whether I've paid a dime or a $1M in taxes, my access to those roads is unfettered. So, yes, technically, you are absolutely right in that I do not "own/have title to" the highway, but I have (or should have) a great deal more influence over its management by virtue of my tax monies than the guy in the office building who tells the Coke guy to put the machine in the break room, and never gives it a second thought...until it jams and doesn't give him a soda.....whereupon a contemporary of Mayor Bloomberg swoops down on him and has him imprisoned for drinking a Coke in the first place....(sarcasm).

As far as the broader issue of mandatory, ubiquitous government monitoring of vehicle movement, I believe its reprehensible. We now already have the ability to track and remote-stop a vehicle, which is great for stolen cars. Not so for someone doing nothing of consequence living in a society of presumed innocence.

[MadMonk]

Anyone ever see the movie "The Last Chase" ? ... 1981... .. It was about future United States where the only transportation that was available was public transportation and you could not own, or even possess a vehicle.

Ironically, he's trying to get to "Free California", where gasoline-burning cars are still welcome.

Trivia: On the movie poster, the jet attacking the race car is an F-4 Phantom. but in the movie, they use an F-86 Sabre.

[windowphobe]

A collection of essays by the late automotive journalist David E. Davis Jr. came with a foreword by P. J. O'Rourke, which I am happy to endorse despite my support for streetcars and such:

David knows what every sixteen-year-old knows, but what no elected official, self-appointed quality-of-life advocate, or double-domed social visionary seems to — that cars confer upon us the ultimate and most important of human freedoms. We can leave.

[catch22]

My total vehicular costs (regular maintenance such as tires, oil changes etc. + car insurance + gas money) is around $84/week for a paid off car. Doesn't sound like much, but I am a regular working class individual who brings home about $400 a week. When you total up your transportation costs, it costs a lot to drive. I couldn't imagine having a several hundred dollar a month car payment on top of the O&M cost.

[windowphobe]

It does indeed cost a lot to drive -- more than some folks are willing or able to shell out. (I once figured that my previous car cost me 59 cents for each and every mile.) Hence, transit options.

[catch22]

If we had a decent transit system, I wouldn't eliminate my car altogether, but even reducing my driving by a half would reduce my cost by about 30 bucks a week net saving. (Transit also costs to use) around an extra $1600 a year I could use for other things.

[Just the facts]

A collection of essays by the late automotive journalist David E. Davis Jr. came with a foreword by P. J. O'Rourke, which I am happy to endorse despite my support for streetcars and such:

David knows what every sixteen-year-old knows, but what no elected official, self-appointed quality-of-life advocate, or double-domed social visionary seems to — that cars confer upon us the ultimate and most important of human freedoms. We can leave.

ah-ha, that is the crux of the dilemma. What if the car didn't allow you to leave?

I maintain that walking is the most important of human freedoms. If you take away my ability to walk - through Euclidian zoning segregation you have in essence denied me my most basic of rights and force me to own an expensive automobile while at the same time taxing me even more to pay for a place to drive it, and on top of that a tax on the fuel that makes it go. How is that for 'freedom of the automobile'?

I wonder how the tea party feels about this.

[MadMonk]

This doesn't restrict you from moving somewhere that you can walk for everything.

[hoya]

I like both options. I like the ability to drive, and want to live and work in a place where I'm not required to drive everywhere. I don't see why I can't have both.

Building a city that is entirely reliant on the automobile just doesn't make good sense.

[Just the facts]

This doesn't restrict you from moving somewhere that you can walk for everything.

Trudat, but where does this place exist in Oklahoma?

[Just the facts]

So in 77,000 sq miles the only place with true freedom of movement is a tiny 8 block area.

[Just the facts]

I never said Deep Deuce was the only place. You're putting words in my mouth.

Fair enough - so let's say there are 80 Deep Deuce type places in Oklahoma (and of course we know there isn't). So in 77,000 sq miles there are only 640 blocks where freedom of movement actually exist? Everywhere else I would have to buy my freedom of movement which depending on location and income can be anywhere from 35% to 50% of take home pay. Does the Tea Party know about this hidden mandate?

[Urban Pioneer]

Gotta be honest, there is no bigger advocate for public transit than me, but I love a great looking car.

I wish the Tesla Model S was cheaper. In lieu of that, I may get a Mustang. LOL

[OKVision4U]

Mustang..... Vette..., it's amazing what a few curves w/ horsepower can do. The Tesla Model S is there too. They are definately hitting the mark of what the consumer wants.

[MadMonk]

Fair enough - so let's say there are 80 Deep Deuce type places in Oklahoma (and of course we know there isn't). So in 77,000 sq miles there are only 640 blocks where freedom of movement actually exist? Everywhere else I would have to buy my freedom of movement which depending on location and income can be anywhere from 35% to 50% of take home pay. Does the Tea Party know about this hidden mandate?

No, you can walk anywhere you like (private property excepted). But there is a cost in time and effort. With a car you are paying for convenience, not freedom. Your freedom doesn't go away because its inconvenient. The same holds true regardless of whether you travel by car, horse & buggy, jet, etc.

[Mel]

I'll be sticking with my '07 Ford Five Hundred for a bit. it gets decent gas millage and my wife love driving it. If I could buy new I would get a '14 Taurus.

[Urban Pioneer]

I have always bought a "practical car". The motorcycle took up the slack. But after driving various cars, the Mustang is for me. If the Tesla was at $30,000 $35,000, I would do that.

Curves, nice engine, Brembo brakes.... and maybe a glass roof for non-hail raining days.

But yeah, if your going to drive around in a bubble, you might as well pick the right bubble for you.

I would opine on which streetcar models are sexy, but that would directly feed into all of the MAPS 3 Transit conspiracy theories propogated by Ed & Company.

[soonerguru]

I love the idea of mass transit but rail doesn't stop at taco bell drive thru

You eat at Taco Bell? I'm not against fast food per se, but Taco Bell is the butthole of cuisine. It is terrifically bad and practically inedible. You are a "worthy cook?"

[MWCGuy]

I think you could cut fuel consumption, gridlock and pollution in half if not down to a quarter. Just by teaching people better driving habits and steering away from the bankers hours schedules that so many businesses run on these day. Not every business needs to run on a 8-4 or 9-5. In fact many would probably be more profitable if they opened later in the day because more people are out and about.

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

I think you could cut fuel consumption, gridlock and pollution in half if not down to a quarter. Just by teaching people better driving habits and steering away from the bankers hours schedules that so many businesses run on these day. Not every business needs to run on a 8-4 or 9-5. In fact many would probably be more profitable if they opened later in the day because more people are out and about.

Or let more people telecommute. My job could easily be done from Zanzibar, but I have to be in the building, at my desk, like a good little monkey.

[Richard at Remax]

You eat at Taco Bell? I'm not against fast food per se, but Taco Bell is the butthole of cuisine. It is terrifically bad and practically inedible. You are a "worthy cook?"

Yeah I'm no cook. But if you think the Doritos loco taco is "inedible" then I feel sorry for your taste buds.

[Urban Pioneer]

Curves, nice engine, Brembo brakes.... and maybe a glass roof for non-hail raining days.

So today I went for it. Me loves some "American freedom". lol Streetcar service is my carbon offset! Seriously though, this muscle car gets better gas milage than the Japanese Acura. Can't believe it really!