Health of the Urban Districts/Areas.

[hoya]

Eventually, I want to see development go from 23rd street down to the river, and go as far west as Exchange and Classen, all the way east to I-235. I want it to connect to a revitalized Stockyards City and Capital Hill, and cross over the interstate to the Capitol and the OU medical center.

That's what I'd like to see. We are probably 25 or 30 years from that being completed. But we've got to plan for it now, and if a unique opportunity arises in one of these areas, we have to be ready to seize it. I'm not worried about having a few empty spaces in each area. Those are small scale problems. Overall our downtown is benefitted more, I think, by having a larger area that's 70% developed rather than a smaller area that's 100% developed. Perfection is the enemy of good enough, and if we wait until one area is completely full before starting on another, we'll miss out.

The big keystone properties are what we need to focus on. The Fred Jones building is a keystone property. There are a lot more investors who can renovate a small building than a big one. We should work on getting the big pieces in place and then the smaller developments will follow.

[Pete]

^
Even if the Cox site gets redeveloped that is a relatively small area and there would still be plenty of need -- especially mid-rise housing -- in the southern part of Midtown. However, I get the feeling the City is trying to force that to happen in Core to Shore.

[HangryHippo]

^
Even if the Cox site gets redeveloped that is a relatively small area and there would still be plenty of need -- especially mid-rise housing -- in the southern part of Midtown. However, I get the feeling the City is trying to force that to happen in Core to Shore.

Exactly my problem with Core 2 Shore. It's the one area (IMO) that seems to siphon off what could be put to better use in existing areas, in particular South Midtown.

[hoya]

Remember, at the end of the day, we're looking at a relatively small area as far as a geographical footprint. I understand the fear of spreading ourselves too thin, and there is a lot of empty space in the downtown area that needs filled at some point. But I'd expect we'll see another dozen large apartment complexes, on the size of Level or the Edge, will be announced within the next 5 years. That's not counting the ones we have already heard something about, I'm talking "doesn't have a thread yet on OKCTalk" brand new announcements. They'll range from Bricktown up through AA, over into Midtown, and probably one south of St Anthony or somewhere around there.

I believe a lot of empty lots are going to disappear rather quickly, and people will be surprised at what downtown looks like very soon.

[hoya]

^
Even if the Cox site gets redeveloped that is a relatively small area and there would still be plenty of need -- especially mid-rise housing -- in the southern part of Midtown. However, I get the feeling the City is trying to force that to happen in Core to Shore.

I get the feeling the city wants to have our central park resemble New York's Central Park, with very expensive midrise housing all around it.

[Teo9969]

Here's my timeline of when I'd like to focus on these areas, again, taking into account all that has already been announced:

East River Development (Lincoln/River/235/40) : Whenever a sensible development comes up for this area. It's not sharing development resources with other districts.

Cotton Mill Site and surrounding area (Shields/40//Boulevard): Start brainstorming 2020 to 2030, start pursuing/developing 2030 to 2045

C2S South (Western/River/Lincoln/40) : Start brainstorming after MAPS 3 is finished, start developing after 2027.

C2S North (Western/40/Shields/Boulevard) : Start brainstorming after MAPS 3 is finished, start developing 2022-25.

Bricktown (BNSF/Boulevard-40/235/4th): A project here or there, but just don't rush to fill in Bricktown for the next 6 years.

Deep Deuce (BNSF/Tracks/235/4th): Finish out by 2017/18 should be the goal. That essentially means committing the rest of the land to projects in the next 2.5 years

CBD (Walker/Boulevard/Shields-BNSF/4th): Again, this is far more dependent on big business than it is developers. Encourage places to make street level interaction more bearable and if a new project does happen to spring up, hold it to the highest of standards.

West Downtown (Western-Classen/40/Walker/4th): It seems so early to start working on this, but I guess start work now and continue through 2025

Auto-Alley (Broadway/4th/235/13th): Develop now and finish out by 2020.

South Midtown (Walker/4th/Broadway/9th): Stop gaps until Maps 3 is finished, brainstorm until 2022, Fill out by 2030

SOSA (Classen/4th/Walker/9th): This is probably going to be mostly single family residential area, which will be fine. Try and make the infrastructure nice by 2017.

North Midtown (Classen/9th/Broadway/13th): Develop now and finish out by 2022

[bchris02]

I get the feeling the city wants to have our central park resemble New York's Central Park, with very expensive midrise housing all around it.

That's what the master plan calls for. Personally I think that is very ambitious for OKC and will likely end up scaled down from what is envisioned. It may have been possible back in the mid 2000s if Core2Shore would have ended up being the primary focus of all development but as thinly as things are spread even today I don't see it happening.

[Teo9969]

^
Even if the Cox site gets redeveloped that is a relatively small area and there would still be plenty of need -- especially mid-rise housing -- in the southern part of Midtown. However, I get the feeling the City is trying to force that to happen in Core to Shore.

Right, but let's be real…OKC is going to need a whole lot more financial resources to be able to build that kind of development all over South Midtown. Doing so on 4 blocks right across from the transit hub would be cake probably even now. Getting $5B to $10B of investment in South Midtown is going to require OKC being somewhat of a proven commodity.

[bchris02]

Why not develop Core 2 Shore similar to Mud Island in Memphis? That may be a pie in the sky idea and it may receive a lot of criticism, but I think it might be a good idea for that land. It's not too ambitious and would provide downtown with a family-friendly district. It would also go a long ways towards getting retail downtown. The other districts currently developing can then become the places for young professionals and hip bars, restaurants, and art galleries.

[OKVision4U]

If our local economy continues this path for the next 10 - 15 yrs, you will see the C2S areas be a large target for outside investment groups. They should fill this area in nicely w/ Mid-rise Mixed use properties. This will be a "Hot" spot for R/E investments.

A little (vision) here, but the south portion of C2S riverfront, might even have a couple of Corporate HQ's for expanding energy companies.

[warreng88]

My wife and I just got back from a week in Charleston and Savannah and in Savannah we discovered Forsyth Park. It is about a 30 acres (10 acres less than the proposed upper park) with a lot of older trees and a one mile jogging trail around the edge. This park is about 150 years old so it will be hard to compare, but there are a few spots for larger gatherings, a big fountain, a restaurant and a couple of playgrounds, so the amenties will be about the same with the addition of a small pond. If you go to googlemaps.com and do a street view of the area surrounding the park, there are a lot of 2-4 story single/multi family and hotels/B&B's surrounding the park with several small shops on the south side of the park. Is this what people are expecting with our park or something bigger? I don't think we are going to get a bunch of 10-30 story buildings like the ones that surround Central Park in NYC and I am ok with that.

[OKVision4U]

There could be ( 2 - 4 ) on each side of the park that are 8 - 10 stories, but most likely it will be closer to what you described Warreng88 like Savannah.

[betts]

If our local economy continues this path for the next 10 - 15 yrs, you will see the C2S areas be a large target for outside investment groups. They should fill this area in nicely w/ Mid-rise Mixed use properties. This will be a "Hot" spot for R/E investments.

A little (vision) here, but the south portion of C2S riverfront, might even have a couple of Corporate HQ's for expanding energy companies.

I think plans for the downtown air park are going to jump start people looking south of the river and hopefully their glance continues on to Capitol Hill. I like the suggestion of a future MAPS proposal for a soccer venue along the south side of the river. I'd also like to see a strictly pedestrian bridge built that crosses the river.

I'm not worried about spreading ourselves too thin. I think there's enough momentum for all districts. The park and streetcar will speed up interest in C2S. I'd love to live along the park.

[OKVision4U]

Great ideas for the soccer venue and bridge.

Yes, each district should provide enough "flavor" to stand on its own merit and pull enough continued development in the next 10 to 20 years. ...and fill in nicely.

The new Central Park OKC will be a "gem".

[bchris02]

I think plans for the downtown air park are going to jump start people looking south of the river and hopefully their glance continues on to Capitol Hill. I like the suggestion of a future MAPS proposal for a soccer venue along the south side of the river. I'd also like to see a strictly pedestrian bridge built that crosses the river.

I'm not worried about spreading ourselves too thin. I think there's enough momentum for all districts. The park and streetcar will speed up interest in C2S. I'd love to live along the park.

I think it should be at least 20 years before OKC even starts thinking about south of the river, the exception being if there is an Austin or Charlotte style boom which I personally don't see happening. I think mid-term is just as important as the long-term. It's great to have a long term vision, but we cannot bank everything on the long term at the expense of near-term. That's what OKC did during the I.M. Pei era and look how it turned out. Even today, OKC still doesn't have that "amazing" urban district most other cities its size have. Bricktown is a good district, don't get me wrong, but it is not amazing. It was where everything started though and early its where most resources were focused, bringing it to critical mass within 10 years. Huge mistakes were made (Hogan, suburban design, Bass Pro) but its something OKC can and most likely has learned from and will consider when developing future districts. Midtown and Auto Alley at the very least need to be brought to potential before focus is shifted elsewhere. There is a TON of potential in those two districts but they, especially Midtown, sit in sad shape today. There is still so much work to do there and within 5-10 years, if the resource and focus was allocated right, they could be OKC's "amazing" urban districts.

[heyerdahl]

nm

[heyerdahl]

Remember, at the end of the day, we're looking at a relatively small area as far as a geographical footprint. I understand the fear of spreading ourselves too thin, and there is a lot of empty space in the downtown area that needs filled at some point. But I'd expect we'll see another dozen large apartment complexes, on the size of Level or the Edge, will be announced within the next 5 years. That's not counting the ones we have already heard something about, I'm talking "doesn't have a thread yet on OKCTalk" brand new announcements. They'll range from Bricktown up through AA, over into Midtown, and probably one south of St Anthony or somewhere around there.

I believe a lot of empty lots are going to disappear rather quickly, and people will be surprised at what downtown looks like very soon.

Exactly... All the downtown districts being discussed fall within an area of just 1.5 square miles. That's really compact. We forget how interrelated all the districts are- Someone living in one district has access to all the others by less than a 10 minute bike ride.

What we have had success with is a series of growing neighborhood centers that will all start to merge together in the next 5 years. The strategy has been to take a spot with good building stock, like Film Row, do public investment like a streetscape, and then watch the growth radiate concentrically until it merges with the next center.

This strategy is paying off. It'll be really obvious when the Metropolitan and one or two more developments seamlessly link Auto Alley, Deep Deuce, and Bricktown. Auto Alley radiated from 9th & Broadway, Bricktown from California & Mickey Mantle, DD from 2nd and Walnut, and now they'll all merge. Same thing will happen on west side of downtown from Midtown to Civic Center to Film Row- but we're just now seeing the beginning stages.

[OKVision4U]

When the Park is getting ready to have the ribbon cut, you will see a great deal of interest there. It just will carry that dynamic on the C2S North section. That will most likely be urban district that is amazing. It will have the right "mix" for a central Hip place to live w/ the draw of the park. Midtown & Auto Alley should continue to develop & mature nicely at a solid pace.

[betts]

I think the market will determine what happens. But as areas get more dense, prices go up and people start looking elsewhere. That has happened in every city I know. I expect C2S to be pricey because of the park. Land in SoSA is already out of reach of the average homebuyer. I fully expect the area around the Plaza to become entry level housing for young people who want to buy and renovate. But it will not surprise me at all to see people looking south, especially if the Airpark goes. I don't think it will hurt existing areas if that happens, personally. Different areas have different personalities and appeal to different types of people. And there are always pioneers. A few years ago the businesses in the Plaza were pioneers.

[ljbab728]

I think it should be at least 20 years before OKC even starts thinking about south of the river, the exception being if there is an Austin or Charlotte style boom which I personally don't see happening.

Gotcha. Everything south of the river should be written off for the next 20 years. There are actually people who live and work there and that will make them very happy. It's a great way to win friends. You are trying to event a campaign issue for Ed, I think.

[bchris02]

Gotcha. Everything south of the river should be written off for the next 20 years. There are actually people who live and work there and that will make them very happy. It's a great way to win friends. You are trying to event a campaign issue for Ed, I think.

I don't mean we should "write off" south of the river. I think if it is developed it should be done by the free market and there shouldn't be major incentives given to develop it in the near term.

[ljbab728]

I don't mean we should "write off" south of the river. I think if it is developed it should be done by the free market and there shouldn't be major incentives given to develop it in the near term.

What kind of major incentives are you thinking of? If you are talking about the city acquiring land to be redeveloped, I agree. Tax incentives for redevelopment shouldn't be off the table though.
And since I probably won't be around 20 years from now, I don't consider that to be near term. LOL

[bchris02]

What kind of major incentives are you thinking of? If you are talking about the city acquiring land to be redeveloped, I agree. Tax incentives for redevelopment shouldn't be off the table though.
And since I probably won't be around 20 years from now, I don't consider that to be near term. LOL

Yeah that is what I am talking about, and I just threw 20 years out there without any reason for that number. As for incentives, I am not sure the city should intentionally steer development south to jump start it too soon. If growth picks up and snowballs, south of the river could be ripe for public investment in 10-15 years.

[ljbab728]

Yeah that is what I am talking about, and I just threw 20 years out there without any reason for that number. As for incentives, I am not sure the city should intentionally steer development south to jump start it too soon. If growth picks up and snowballs, south of the river could be ripe for public investment in 10-15 years.

I disagree entirely. I see nothing wrong with tax incentives now for someone wanting to do a major investment in the Capitol Hill District. There is no rational reason that area should have to wait for 10 to 15 years for improvements if someone is willing to stick their necks out based on incentives.

Have you driven through the Capitol Hill business area on 25th street recently? The streetscapes now look very nice with wide sidewalks and continued on street parking. It is similar to the Plaza District in that regard but much larger. The amount of potential buildings to be redeveloped is likely higher than even 23rd street and it is much more walkable since it is a two lane street. This doesn't need to necessarily be a gentrified area like Midtown but could be a great draw for middle class families and there is plenty of housing stock that could either be renovated or torn down and replaced.

[Teo9969]

It's funny…I was in Dallas on Saturday and grabbed lunch with a friend in the Bishop Art's District and thought to myself "We don't have anywhere in OKC that has this kind and amount of old urban infrastructure.

Sometime later that day I was like "Wait…yes we do: Capitol Hill". It's interesting because the Bishop Art's District is also a district with a large hispanic population.